Heroin Using Subutex to Kick Heroin and Avoid Precipitated Withdrawl

[DugUntilHit]

Hey, I'm new to the forum, And wanted to see if anyone would be able to answer my question.
I have 20, 8mg Subutex(not Suboxone). I've taken SUBUTEX as little as 10 hours after my last dose of heroin and did not have precipitated Withdrawls and other instances where I've taken SUBOXONE 24-28 hours after my last dose of heroin and put myself into precipitated withdrawal. I know that SUBUTEX does not have Naltrexone, whereas SUBOXONE does and there is definitely a difference. I have my own experiences with both. So my real question is, how long should I wait to take my SUBUTEX after my last dose of heroin? The reason I'm asking now is because my addiction/tolerance is the worst/highest it's ever been. Here's a little background..
I've been shooting dope for the past 5 years with various lengths of sobriety in between, ranging from a few days to several months. I've been to rehab a few times and each time they'd use subutex to help me kick. But every time they'd always make me wait to see a doctor before they'd let me dose with the Subutex, which would always be a few hours since my last shot.
So this time I've been using for 6 months, about .4-.6 a shot, depending on the purity, about 2-6 times per day. Depending on how busy I was. I've been thinking about using the COWS chart to help figure out when I should take my SUBUTEX but I'm thinking if I do my last shot at night around 8 pm, fall asleep, wake up and wait a few hours till about 8-10am, I should be sick enough to take the SUBUTEX. I'm hoping 12-14 hours will be sufficient but I'm not positive since I've never had a tolerance quiet this high. I'm hoping someone will be able to shed some light on the situation and help.
Any and all answers are appreciated and welcomed. And thank you in advanced!

 

[SKR]

Same principles should apply no matter your tolerance for your DOC. So keep it simple and go by feel.....if you're in Withdrawal and therefore symptomatic and sick then you should be safe to take your sub dose.

I've only gone onto sub once where all I was advised to do was wait 24hrs after my last dose of oxycodone before the first strip of suboxone was under my tongue, I wasn't feeling any where near how sick I thought I should be before taking my dose but I was fine. but I can envisage issues with precipitated withdrawal especially with those that have made the switch back and forth between subs and full agonist opiates...one may become sensitized to the switch so timing and how sick you feel may be more finicky with regards as to when to dose sub.

 

[xj0hnx]

It's hard for anyone else to accurately say because we are all a little different, I personally, knowing what PW is like, would wait until the first real physical symptoms, nausea, vomiting, body aches, not just the pre-withdrawal hibeejibees

 

[bingey]

Of course everybody's WD symptoms are different I never get nausea for one even when coming off of monster habits. Let's just say the runny nose and yawning stage has to have started for 24 hours also stagger your bupe dose start with 2 mg. To bridge the gap rely on cannabis and benzodiazepines. Cannabis is seriously almost as nice as a hot shower in WD, it just calms your body for a couple hours and allows you to focus on eating and sleeping which will make you feel much better.

 

[Prescottdave]

24-48 hours for moderate to heavy habits requiring a gram + of H per day. No less then 12 hours though this may work for some, most addicts in my experience who have been addicted for up to a decade should never take Sub at the 12 hour mark unless their tolerance is lower then 60 mg of oxycodone. The 60 mg oxycodone mark is important. I find it's vital to taper down to this mark or it's equivalent before transitioning to Suboxone. Otherwise in my experience it will take a week to get over a minor W/D phase from transitioning. After you switch back and forth for many years you will begin to graduate to this phase. Suboxone will start to not be enough to hold you and you will always have to taper down and prepare for the painful transition. Those at the beginning of their addiction usually do not have these problems in the first few years. I always had to wait over 36 hours and it usually took 1-2 weeks to stop having cold sweats and minor W/D symptoms.

 

[Ligaturd]

With just heroin you should be fine even 12 hours after your last shot but the problem is that if there is fentanyl in your dope, you have to wait a few days. Fentanyl has a short half life but it's metabolite nor-fentanyl lingers in your system for quite a long time even when you are in full withdrawal. This has been a problem for so many people trying to get onto subs and clinics should be wise to this by now. If you are getting precipitated withdrawals even 36 hours out then this is why.

 

[poloblue]

Anyone have advice for if someone's been on subs 3 1/2yrs but did 75mg tianeptine yesterday. Now idk whether to take sub or just continue on tianeptine. I don't want précip w/d's. It's been about 20-22 hrs since T dose

 

[Prescottdave]

With just heroin you should be fine even 12 hours after your last shot but the problem is that if there is fentanyl in your dope, you have to wait a few days. Fentanyl has a short half life but it's metabolite nor-fentanyl lingers in your system for quite a long time even when you are in full withdrawal. This has been a problem for so many people trying to get onto subs and clinics should be wise to this by now. If you are getting precipitated withdrawals even 36 hours out then this is why.

This is simply incorrect and subjective. Telling the wrong person that they can take Suboxone just 12 hours since their last shot of heroin can likely result in a trip to the hospital. I have seen it before. Someone with a heavy tolerance who waited 16 hours since their last shot was hospitalized within 8 hours after taking .6 mg of buprenorphine due to dehydration from continues diarrhea and vomiting throughout the day. This resulted from precipitated W/D. Who knows what the half life is of many of the metabolites and other partly reacted opiates within black tar heroin? This may play a role in a slightly longer period required for a smooth transition. I think it has a lot to do with tolerance in the end. If your tolerance is above a certain level it doesn't matter if you wait 3-4 days you will still be slightly sick through your induction period. This is different then actual precipitated W/D though. Best to wait 24 hours if you have been using longer then 5 years and your tolerance is above 60 mg of oxycodone. For those on methadone many prescribers will taper a client down to about 30 mg before they make the switch to Suboxone. This 30 mg methadone mark is important to remember and is roughly equal to about 60 mg of oxycodone.