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Bupe Using suboxone to get off kratom (Questions!)

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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Please note that I have been on kratom (15-20 grams more or less) daily for two years now as a means to break free from opioid addiction/abuse. It worked, however I am starting to grow sick of being chained down to an expensive substance that barely benefits me anymore as an antidepressant and has become its own unique addiction. I have gone through opioid withdrawal here and there, and while it was indeed horrible I could cope with the symptoms. Believe me though--personally kratom withdrawal is worse than that! After two years of use the withdrawal is even worse than true opiate withdrawal. So I have some questions (the suboxone strips are 8 milligrams each):

-How long should I wait from the last dose of kratom to avoid precipitated withdrawal?

-Does the dose of the suboxone used matter as to whether or not one goes into precipitated withdrawal?

-Is suboxone different from subutex? (In the past I have used subutex only, and they were wee lil adorable orange tablets)

-Lastly--is suboxone even known to be effective from kratom withdrawal?

Please respond with anything you know on the subject! I'm desperate to get off it, but the withdrawal is so severe for me psychologically and physically with the restless legs and arms and extreme fatigue that I do not feel strong enough to go through it cold turkey. I'm not opposed to tapering down from the kratom but I want to be done with it quickly and efficiently if possible.

P.S.: Kratom does indeed work for detoxing off of oxycodone/heroin/etcetera but it can definitely develop into it's own addiction and the withdrawal can be just as bad as true opiate withdrawal if you have used it for an extended period of time, or in substantially high doses (or a combination of both). I do know that suboxone is not ordinarily used as a means to get off kratom but I am a little bit desperate... the withdrawal really is devastating for me. I hate the withdrawal more than a bad oxycodone kick at this point :(
 

falsifiedhypothesi

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I feel you there, I went cold turkey on ~30g's a day and the RLS was insane, I was suicidal the entire 4-5 days. What opiate were you on previously?

To the question, suboxone is just going to be another addiction, if you use it to get off kratom you should probably do a rapid taper. I don't have any direct experience but I don't see why subs wouldn't be effective for kratom withdrawal. Obviously wait until you are in full withdrawals until you take any subs.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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I feel you there, I went cold turkey on ~30g's a day and the RLS was insane, I was suicidal the entire 4-5 days. What opiate were you on previously?

To the question, suboxone is just going to be another addiction, if you use it to get off kratom you should probably do a rapid taper. I don't have any direct experience but I don't see why subs wouldn't be effective for kratom withdrawal. Obviously wait until you are in full withdrawals until you take any subs.
Full withdrawal as in 24 hours since the last dose or... to be safe I'm not sure?

Thanks for sympathizing with how bad it can be lol.. to be honest I didn't think anyone was going to believe me. I was previously on IR oxycodone. It was a good and bad time as it is for everyone.
 

falsifiedhypothesi

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It might take more than 24 hours for kratom depending on how often you dose. From what I heard its best to wait until you are completely miserable until you take the first dose, I can't imagine how shitty precipitated withdrawal is.
 

Canberra Slim

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I know nothing about suboxone. But as a many-years kratom user who's tried and almost succeeded in getting down to zero, my advice is to taper. Maybe you've done this and it hasn't worked. But for me I dropped down from about 9g a day to barely a gram. It took me 4 months and I would lower one or more of my doses per day by about .1-.2g, hold that for a few days (3 or 4) and then go down again. I suppose I gave myself good reason for not going all the way.... but I have no doubt I could have if I was more determined, since at the 1g I wasn't feeling anything one way or another.

If I felt I was having trouble I'd hold on whatever that quantity was for another few days before dropping a further tenth of a gram.

It can also be useful to get hold of some S&V (stem and vein) to gradually mix in.

Good luck. Hope this helps
 

Deru

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I would severely advise against using buprenorphine for kratom withdrawals, unless you want to just keep becoming a more extreme opioid addict and further become a slave to the cycle. It would make absolutely no sense to do this. You would never want to go from such a weak opiod to such a powerful opioid, because getting off buprenorphine is extreme hell. You're better off using a shorter half-life opiod like codeine or somewhere in that ballpark, in incredibly small amounts for a couple days if you really need it. To give reference, it would make about as much sense to use buprenorphine to get off Kratom as it would to use heroin or fentanyl, and in this case, heroin would actually make more sense because of it's exponentially shorter half-life, and that would still be a terrible idea.
 
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GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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I will only be using the buprenorphine for about 4-5 days. Not absurd amounts but I'm doing a taper down so in theory the kratom would be fully out of my system and I'd be withdrawing from the bupe moreso than the kratom.

I totally understand what you're saying. I know that bupe has an incredibly long half life. But it does not have severe RSL like prolonged kratom use does.

If all in all this ends up being a horrible idea as you said and I'm just suffering at the end.. I'll taper down off kratom. I just want to try a different way to do it. I was facing regular depressive episodes on kratom the longer I stayed on it ironically. I think I would be a bit happier sober. With the quarantine in effect still virtually, I have time to feel god awful. I've had my fair share in the opiate realm and have been playing the game long enough to know that the pleasure component of it is entirely gone. Any positive qualities or thrill is basically lost and it's went from a 9/10 sensation to a baseline one. Occasionally I would score a great oxy high the times that I did dabble in it, but even so eventually the brain is just underwhelmed. You have a limited amount of times to get high off of opiates before it becomes a hell on earth scenario imo. I never want to be a daily user of any opiate related thing from this point forward. It's been awful since the end of year 1 and I refused to face reality.

It is too late to heed your warning unfortunately Deru. I'm already off kratom/opioids and on the suboxone. It hasn't been an easy transition but I feel straight right now. I have two questions -- if the bupe does cause a hell-induced withdrawal, I won't be able to feel any kratom for 3 days post the last dosing of bupe--correct? Should I just wait for those 3 days to be up or would I be out of the woods by that point anyhow?

I haven't cheated or taken kratom along with the bupe thus far. I can't even find enough information to know if that would just induce precipitated withdrawal off the bat anyway.
 
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Deru

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I will only be using the buprenorphine for about 4-5 days. Not absurd amounts but I'm doing a taper down so in theory the kratom would be fully out of my system and I'd be withdrawing from the bupe moreso than the kratom.

I totally understand what you're saying. I know that bupe has an incredibly long half life. But it does not have severe RSL like prolonged kratom use does.

If all in all this ends up being a horrible idea as you said and I'm just suffering at the end.. I'll taper down off kratom. I just want to try a different way to do it. I was facing regular depressive episodes on kratom the longer I stayed on it ironically. I think I would be a bit happier sober. With the quarantine in effect still virtually, I have time to feel god awful. I've had my fair share in the opiate realm and have been playing the game long enough to know that the pleasure component of it is entirely gone. Any positive qualities or thrill is basically lost and it's went from a 9/10 sensation to a baseline one. Occasionally I would score a great oxy high the times that I did dabble in it, but even so eventually the brain is just underwhelmed. You have a limited amount of times to get high off of opiates before it becomes a hell on earth scenario imo. I never want to be a daily user of any opiate related thing from this point forward. It's been awful since the end of year 1 and I refused to face reality.

It is too late to heed your warning unfortunately Deru. I'm already off kratom/opioids and on the suboxone. It hasn't been an easy transition but I feel straight right now. I have two questions -- if the bupe does cause a hell-induced withdrawal, I won't be able to feel any kratom for 3 days post the last dosing of bupe--correct? Should I just wait for those 3 days to be up or would I be out of the woods by that point anyhow?

I haven't cheated or taken kratom along with the bupe thus far. I can't even find enough information to know if that would just induce precipitated withdrawal off the bat anyway.
Drugs typically take 5 elimination half-lives to be eliminated from your body. If we assume a 24 hour half-life for buprenorphine, it will take 5 days (or more) to be fully eliminated. What really matters is dose. You shouldn't have needed more than 1 or 2 mg of buprenorphine to aid with withdrawals from Kratom, and remember, each day you have 50 percent of yesterday's dose, 25 percent of two day's prior dose, etc. up to 5 (or more) days of doses still in your circulatory system. If you went 8 mg or above, I would immediately stop and taper down before you really wind up in a bad position. As for your specific question about how long to feel Kratom, depending upon dose, it could be anywhere from 3 days to 5 days. I wouldn't even use buprenorphine for 5 days and allow the drug blood plasma levels to build up. With buprenorphine bound to your receptors, kratom will have no effect because it won't be able to kick the buprenorphine off them.
 

Deru

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Just to give an example, if you use 4 mg of buprenorphine for five days, on the 5th day you will have roughly 231 MME (Morphine Milligram Equivalents - assuming 24 hour half-life, and 1 mg of sublingual, bioavailability adjusted, is the equivalent to 30 mg of morphine. If you use 8 mg of buprenorphine for 5 days, you will have roughly the equivalent of 460 mg of morphine on the 5th day. That is an insane hell to withdrawal from, and then add on to the fact those withdrawals are long, drawn out hell as it takes close to a day just for one elimination half-life.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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Just to give an example, if you use 4 mg of buprenorphine for five days, on the 5th day you will have roughly 231 MME (Morphine Milligram Equivalents - assuming 24 hour half-life, and 1 mg of sublingual, bioavailability adjusted, is the equivalent to 30 mg of morphine. If you use 8 mg of buprenorphine for 5 days, you will have roughly the equivalent of 460 mg of morphine on the 5th day. That is an insane hell to withdrawal from, and then add on to the fact those withdrawals are long, drawn out hell as it takes close to a day just for one elimination half-life.
This does help clarify the situation a bit. I actually did not know that bupe was that potent. I've heard that either a) suboxone is easy to withdraw from or b) hell on earth. I assume it totally depends on the length of use/amounts and additional attributes like metabolism and etc.
 

Deru

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This does help clarify the situation a bit. I actually did not know that bupe was that potent. I've heard that either a) suboxone is easy to withdraw from or b) hell on earth. I assume it totally depends on the length of use/amounts and additional attributes like metabolism and etc.
Yeah, it's easy to remember it like this. Well, first, it's a partial agonist, so it doesn't feel potent. So people will keep increasing dose to achieve the full agonist relief they desperately seek, and will be unsuccessful. Buprenorphine actually provides better euphoria at lower doses, in the 2 mg range, because it's very difficult to subjectively feel it when it's saturating almost all of your mu-opioid receptors. But beyond that, 1 mg of parenteral administration of buprenorphine (IV/IM, etc.) is equivalent to 75 mg of morphine (!!!) which is then compounded by it's long half-life. And then, sublingual bioavailability adjusted, 1 mg of buprenorphine is equivalent to 30 mg of morphine. 4 mg of buprenorphine achieves roughly 50 percent mu-opioid blockade, which is a lot! Can I ask, how much have you taken today? If you were to keep doses between 0.5 mg to 2 mg for a few days, and then completely abate use around 0.5mg, you would probably be fine. It truly is critical when it comes to understanding dosage and half-life with this partial agonist opioid.

All of my numbers and data are from peer reviewed studies and articles and I would be happy to link them if you're interested in further reading on the subject.
 
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GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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I'm just going to be blunt about it so you can help me decide where to go from here. Because honestly reading all that was horrifying. But rather than freak out, I'd hope there's a way I can ease the comedown I'm about to feel.

Today I have used a total of 8 mg's.... As you said I was still sweating a bit from 2 mg's and didn't receive the relief I was looking for so I administered more throughout the day. Upon reading your posts I realized just exactly the morphine equivalent that would be... keep in mind I have due to excessive kratom use about a tolerance that has no issue handling 120 mgs of IR oxycodone a day. I should have done way more precise research about bupe before administering it. I just wasn't asking the right questions. I have a good amount left to taper down from. How much should I be taking if I want to diminish the ridiculous morphine equivalent I have just consumed and at what rate?
 

Deru

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I programmed an Excel spreadsheet to be able to calculate these types of scenarios quickly. This is what I would do:

Daily DoseDaily Dose - Sublingual Bioavailability Adjusted (Amount able to reach arterial blood)Actual and total amount in circulation (5 elimination half-lives included, parenteral)Actual and total amount in circulation for first half life of 24 hours (5 elimination half-lives included, sublingual bioavailability adjusted)MME
83.283.2240
10.452150
10.43.51.4105
0.50.22.210.88466.3
0.250.11.370.54841.1
000.68250.27320.475
000.216250.08656.4875
000.09250.0372.775
000.031250.01250.9375
0 0 0.00781250.0031250.234375
0 0 000

The tables can only handle 10 rows, so my apologies with the goofy formatting for the last two rows, I don't have the ability to adjust it. This will allow plenty of MME for the Kratom to be eliminated, and then a gradual elimination from day 4 to full elimination. Again, this can vary widely depending on your metabolism, tolerance, etc., I use 24 hours because it makes the math easy, but it gets one within the ballpark.
 
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GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

Bluelighter
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Dec 20, 2017
Messages
1,024
I programmed an Excel spreadsheet to be able to calculate these types of scenarios quickly. This is what I would do:

Daily DoseDaily Dose - Sublingual Bioavailability Adjusted (Amount able to reach arterial blood)Actual and total amount in circulation (5 elimination half-lives included, parenteral)Actual and total amount in circulation for first half life of 24 hours (5 elimination half-lives included, sublingual bioavailability adjusted)MME
83.283.2240
10.452150
10.43.51.4105
0.50.22.210.88466.3
0.250.11.370.54841.1
000.68250.27320.475
000.216250.08656.4875
000.09250.0372.775
000.031250.01250.9375
000.00781250.0031250.234375
00000

The tables can only handle 10 rows, so my apologies with the goofy formatting for the last two rows, I don't have the ability to adjust it. This will allow plenty of MME for the Kratom to be eliminated, and then a gradual elimination from day 4 to full elimination. Again, this can vary widely depending on your metabolism, tolerance, etc., I use 24 hours because it makes the math easy, but it gets one within the ballpark.
Deru I'm just bumping this post to answer a question: Doesn't your brain become dependent on specific alkloids? So for instance, if you switched from morphine to suboxone--why would your body become dependent on suboxone so quickly if you did a rapid taper off of suboxone? Wouldn't the withdrawal be a continuation from the extension of the morphine itself once you come off of the subs? I don't understand why in your posts one would be withdrawing from the leftover suboxone in your body's system if you switched to a new substance so quickly (aka the suboxone/bupe). I thought dependency takes time even when crossing among opiates/opioids.

I'm not sure if I worded my question properly. It was actually hard to describe what I am trying to get at lol. Maybe a different way to word it is this: wouldn't a rapid taper off of subs overall reduce any opiate withdrawal in general? Or is my thinking wrong?
 

Deru

Moderator: CEPS
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You're talking about something called cross tolerance, different drugs in one family, that bind to the same or similar receptors (we have three different opioid receptors). Yes, there is a component to that for sure. If someone could do buprenorphine for a few days and then absolutely, completely 100 percent stop using it, then you would be correct to a point (it's still going to require feeling bad/terrible for a while when you ultimately stop the bupe). The first consideration would be dosing too high, which in your case, 8 mg was extremely high considering the potency of Kratom. And then the second consideration would be, if someone needs to go from Kratom to buprenorphine to begin with, that may be indicative of an underlying issue that would prevent complete cessation, leading the individual to a cycle of addiction much more severe than they were previously in. It's like playing with fire in this scenario.

It sounds like what you may benefit from more, is you need a "change", and you were hoping buprenorphine could give you that just long enough and then you could stop buprenorphine with no adverse effects. If that's the case, you would benefit from drugs completely different that opioids, NMDA antagonists, like Ketamine, are gaining a lot of attention lately just specifically for this.

The idea to change up an opioid quickly to be able to stop with no withdrawals from the new opioid just is never going to work like one would hope, and only cause further long term consequences. This is compounded even further, especially, going from an incredibly weak one to an incredibly potent one, that would cause more harm and potential consequences in every way imaginable. As I indicated earlier, if you're dead set on replacing an opioid with an opioid, stay far below morphine for trying to get off Kratom.

There is also ultra low dose naloxone therapy and Naltrexone, which actually help reverse opioid tolerance, that may something worth looking into.
 
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