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Opioids Using hydrocodone for kratom taper?

aspiringchemist

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Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
Warning... long ass post. Any input or help is very appreciated.

I understand that hydrocodone is a full agonist and stronger than kratom but hear me out as this is not your typical kratom dependency story...

I've been using kratom for about 8 years. I got up to 50-70 grams per day by 3 years and have remained there for at least 5 years. On top of this, for the past 6 months I have been using 200mg-450mg of 45% mitragynine extract on top of my evening dose of 17.5g red bentuangie kratom.

I experience rather strong withdrawal symptoms after about 5 hours without dosing. I have a lot of opioid experience and have been addicted to many in the past, including heroin and methadone. After about a decade of abstinence I began using kratom for diagnosed chronic pain.

I've been growing very tired of kratom's hold over me and have been considering quitting for a while now. I recently acquired #60 10mg hydrocodone tablets and also have #100 2.5mg diphenoxylate/atropine (lomotil), which is very similar to demerol/pethidine, and produces similar effects at doses of 20mg-40mg.

Thinking of using these to jump off kratom and taper in a more controlled manner. I also have a myriad of sedatives available. Dextromethorophan has been very helpful in the past for opioid withdrawal IME.

I know the acute withdrawal is sort of the easy part and long term abstinence is where I personally struggle with ceasing opioid use.

I've got about 500g of kratom left and don't necessarily want to order more; this is like 10-15 days worth for me.

Thoughts?

Thanks everyone
✌
 
Last edited:

Psycho_Logic

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I would be very veery of hydrocodone in your situation, as that could lead you back into opioid marry go around. But since you are experienced in that regard you already know that. Try not to lie to yourself and if you still think that that is the only way... I do not see that hydrocodone is an answer for kratom. But then again, I never used extracts. I have used most pharmaceutical opioids and kratom. Stopped kratom twice, but newer went above 20 grams per day and never taken extracts.

I would advise, if you can get by 50 grams of plain dry leaf a day without withdrawal , that you do a quick taper with the kratom that you have left. Withdrawal from kratom will not be pleasant, but it is short lived and much milder than stronger pharma grade opioids. Again, I don't know how much extracts push the withdrawal bar high, but if you can get down to 10 grams of plain leaf you could make through withdrawal much easier than withdrawal from hydrocodone. Bear in mind that you will reach your tolerance to pure agonists in few days if you go that route and that you could end up in a situation where you have to withdraw from hydrocodone + leftover withdrawal from kratom, or even worse you relapse.

There is no easy solutions when it comes to opioid withdrawal, but in the long run your best bet is to go through a kratom withdrawal. I know it sucks, but that's the way it is. Especially with your stated "background" in opioid use.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you make it and get rid of the opioids! You know your body and your limits best. :)

P.S. If you can not just do a quick taper and stop kratom, than I would advise that you use tramadol instead of hydrocodone. If you can get tramadol, pregabalin and few benzos, withdrawal would be more manageable and less dangerous regarding full on relapse. But that is just an opinion not a fact.

Keep us up to date if you think you would benefit from some support and advice if needed.

You can do this. You have already defeated H and methadone. You are strong!
 

aspiringchemist

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Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
I would be very veery of hydrocodone in your situation, as that could lead you back into opioid marry go around. But since you are experienced in that regard you already know that. Try not to lie to yourself and if you still think that that is the only way... I do not see that hydrocodone is an answer for kratom. But then again, I never used extracts. I have used most pharmaceutical opioids and kratom. Stopped kratom twice, but newer went above 20 grams per day and never taken extracts.

I would advise, if you can get by 50 grams of plain dry leaf a day without withdrawal , that you do a quick taper with the kratom that you have left. Withdrawal from kratom will not be pleasant, but it is short lived and much milder than stronger pharma grade opioids. Again, I don't know how much extracts push the withdrawal bar high, but if you can get down to 10 grams of plain leaf you could make through withdrawal much easier than withdrawal from hydrocodone. Bear in mind that you will reach your tolerance to pure agonists in few days if you go that route and that you could end up in a situation where you have to withdraw from hydrocodone + leftover withdrawal from kratom, or even worse you relapse.

There is no easy solutions when it comes to opioid withdrawal, but in the long run your best bet is to go through a kratom withdrawal. I know it sucks, but that's the way it is. Especially with your stated "background" in opioid use.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you make it and get rid of the opioids! You know your body and your limits best. :)

P.S. If you can not just do a quick taper and stop kratom, than I would advise that you use tramadol instead of hydrocodone. If you can get tramadol, pregabalin and few benzos, withdrawal would be more manageable and less dangerous regarding full on relapse. But that is just an opinion not a fact.

Keep us up to date if you think you would benefit from some support and advice if needed.

You can do this. You have already defeated H and methadone. You are strong!
Thanks for your uplifting response. I appreciate the warnings you've stated.

To give you an idea of my tolerance, last night I didn't take any plain leaf kratom. It took 50mg hydrocodone plus 400mg 45% mitragynine extract to simply avoid withdrawal.

I dont know how to live life anymore without kratom or other opioids. Last time I got clean it took joining Narcotics Anonymous for a decade to actually remain clean. I will never return to the 12-step rooms again. Maybe it's not the right time to quit since I can't really envision myself living without it right now.

Unfortunately I do not have access to tramadol. Only hydrocodone and diphenoxylate. I'm not afraid of returning to pharmaceutical addiction; I've been using pharmaceutical opioids intermittently for years now without issue and simply don't see it happening. I also don't have a connect anymore except one person that delivers few and far between.

I just feel so dependent on kratom that I'm feeling trapped and not sure how to proceed. Maybe I should just keep using it...
 

Psycho_Logic

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I know thst things can get pretty hard with opioids. It is a good thing that you are sincere with yourself. I hope you are able to deal with your situation. You are not back on H or methadone and that is more than something. I hope you are able to figure things out. If you could stabilize on plain leaf only that would help a lot. It would also mean that you would have to go through some withdrawal and that is not a pleasant thought or experience. I just think that removing extracts would make your kratom use more managable.

If you're not ready to stop than don't force it. Try not to put yourself down as that way of thinking leads to the same direction of behaving. Only you have answers for your situation and I believe, by the way you write, that you will find most reasonable way of living. Sobriety is great, but if it is forced in the short term than it could easily leads you to full on relapse in the medium to long term.

Keep fighting a good fight!
 

JackARoe

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Jan 16, 2009
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Maybe it's not the right time to quit since I can't really envision myself living without it right now.
More important than quitting is making peace with your utilization. I went years and years feeling guilty about opiates. I started with H, ended up on methadone and felt guilty. Everytime I used even a litle I would feel guilty. And you know what? As I got older I did start making peace with mother nature. Thanks her for bringing me things to help with my journey. It took a while but I no longer feel guilty about much these days. We are physical beings and if anyone has found a way to live without servicing our physical body then let me know.

Extracts have been found to sometimes contain synthetics and I have heard people that have done plain leaf as well as extracts saying coming off the extracts was a lot rougher. Almost a full withdrawal from extract to plain leaf. Then plain leaf not being that bad if done mindfully.

My suggestion is this. Stop the extracts and get some good plain leaf. Taper down off the extracts first, deal with that then I have a feeling that tapering from plain leaf is a lot easier than extracts. Then balance out. Put time between uses. Even when I was at 50 gr a day when I went cold turkey a few days it was still not as bad as a stronger opiate, mostly restless, lethargic, missing the inapacitated existence of withdrawal from a stronger opiate like heroin. So it is doable.

To recap, make peace. :), get off extracts and balance smaller amounts of plain leaf. That is if you are ready. But yeah, those extracts first. The best thing kratpm did for me was balance me out, a little mild maitainence. Watch how quick you feel better making peace. Almost instant. Good luck
 

blackmarket91

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Joined
Jun 19, 2017
Messages
39
Warning... long ass post. Any input or help is very appreciated.

I understand that hydrocodone is a full agonist and stronger than kratom but hear me out as this is not your typical kratom dependency story...

I've been using kratom for about 8 years. I got up to 50-70 grams per day by 3 years and have remained there for at least 5 years. On top of this, for the past 6 months I have been using 200mg-450mg of 45% mitragynine extract on top of my evening dose of 17.5g red bentuangie kratom.

I experience rather strong withdrawal symptoms after about 5 hours without dosing. I have a lot of opioid experience and have been addicted to many in the past, including heroin and methadone. After about a decade of abstinence I began using kratom for diagnosed chronic pain.

I've been growing very tired of kratom's hold over me and have been considering quitting for a while now. I recently acquired #60 10mg hydrocodone tablets and also have #100 2.5mg diphenoxylate/atropine (lomotil), which is very similar to demerol/pethidine, and produces similar effects at doses of 20mg-40mg.

Thinking of using these to jump off kratom and taper in a more controlled manner. I also have a myriad of sedatives available. Dextromethorophan has been very helpful in the past for opioid withdrawal IME.

I know the acute withdrawal is sort of the easy part and long term abstinence is where I personally struggle with ceasing opioid use.

I've got about 500g of kratom left and don't necessarily want to order more; this is like 10-15 days worth for me.

Thoughts?

Thanks everyone
✌
man crazy that kratom is that hard i was thinking of using it for comfort meds from my methadone withdrawals im curious is it worse feeling coming off kratom than methadone?
 

aspiringchemist

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
man crazy that kratom is that hard i was thinking of using it for comfort meds from my methadone withdrawals im curious is it worse feeling coming off kratom than methadone?
No, kratom withdrawal is nowhere near the level of severity of methadone withdrawal. The half life alone of methadone makes it a long and drawn out process.

With that said, my kratom use is rather excessive and certainly not the norm. Also, bringing very potent extracts into the picture has really increased the physiological dependency I experience. Most people will use 10-20 grams per day or thereabouts and it is much more manageable at this level.

People often mistakenly report that kratom is not capable of producing dependency and withdrawal and I believe this message to be very misleading and dangerous. I don't see that on BL, but another forum, as well as the general AKA group and whatnot.

As long as you remember this ^ I dont forsee an issue with using kratom to aid in your jump off methadone.
 

aspiringchemist

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
More important than quitting is making peace with your utilization. I went years and years feeling guilty about opiates. I started with H, ended up on methadone and felt guilty. Everytime I used even a litle I would feel guilty. And you know what? As I got older I did start making peace with mother nature. Thanks her for bringing me things to help with my journey. It took a while but I no longer feel guilty about much these days. We are physical beings and if anyone has found a way to live without servicing our physical body then let me know.

Extracts have been found to sometimes contain synthetics and I have heard people that have done plain leaf as well as extracts saying coming off the extracts was a lot rougher. Almost a full withdrawal from extract to plain leaf. Then plain leaf not being that bad if done mindfully.

My suggestion is this. Stop the extracts and get some good plain leaf. Taper down off the extracts first, deal with that then I have a feeling that tapering from plain leaf is a lot easier than extracts. Then balance out. Put time between uses. Even when I was at 50 gr a day when I went cold turkey a few days it was still not as bad as a stronger opiate, mostly restless, lethargic, missing the inapacitated existence of withdrawal from a stronger opiate like heroin. So it is doable.

To recap, make peace. :), get off extracts and balance smaller amounts of plain leaf. That is if you are ready. But yeah, those extracts first. The best thing kratpm did for me was balance me out, a little mild maitainence. Watch how quick you feel better making peace. Almost instant. Good luck
Guilt and shame are probably the emotions I experience most often, over a myriad of things, including my drug use. I'm a rather successful and responsible adult and I am working to make peace with myself in a variety of ways. I very much appreciate what you said.

The withdrawal I experience is pretty damn intense; it sets in around 6-8 hours post last dose. It definitely increased in severity with the addition of strong extracts.

Appreciate the thoughtful response.

Unfortunately I woke up today and have thrown my neck out bad; head is stuck cocked sideways from muscle spasms. Can't toss n wash so I've been eating these norco like candy. May go make some kratom tea for the evening.
 

aspiringchemist

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
If you're not ready to stop than don't force it. Try not to put yourself down as that way of thinking leads to the same direction of behaving. Only you have answers for your situation and I believe, by the way you write, that you will find most reasonable way of living. Sobriety is great, but if it is forced in the short term than it could easily leads you to full on relapse in the medium to long term.

Keep fighting a good fight!
I appreciate this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts 🙏
 

aspiringchemist

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
Guilt and shame are probably the emotions I experience most often, over a myriad of things, including my drug use. I'm a rather successful and responsible adult and I am working to make peace with myself in a variety of ways. I very much appreciate what you said.

The withdrawal I experience is pretty damn intense; it sets in around 6-8 hours post last dose. It definitely increased in severity with the addition of strong extracts.

Appreciate the thoughtful response.

Unfortunately I woke up today and have thrown my neck out bad; head is stuck cocked sideways from muscle spasms. Can't toss n wash so I've been eating these norco like candy. May go make some kratom tea for the evening.
To add to this, I too view kratom as a maintenance tool. I actually wonder if buprenorphine would be a better option for me at this point; having a decade opiate addiction plus almost another decade of heavy kratom addiction, as well as treatment resistant persistent depressive disorder, and chronic mechanical pain from a spinal mutation. I don't really see life without some kind of opioid.

My psychiatrist and I have discussed using buprenorphine for treatment resistant depression in the recent past. Sometimes i feel like just coming clean about the kratom in hopes of receiving medication assisted treatment (buprenorphine).
 

Psycho_Logic

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I think that in your current situation, due to dosages of kratom, extract that you use and now full agonists, buprenorphine does not sound like a bad idea. I have stopped it 6 months ago, after 3 years of maintenence and if you choose later it is doable. I would not want to presume to know what is best for you, but 2mg of buprenorphine daily could give you needed stability. Pluses are better pain management, being on one substance and not torturing your body with eating that amount of kratom material daily. It is not a decision to be taken lightly, but if you can not controll your kratom usage and are starting to take full agonists maybe it is what you need. If you do make a switch just try to stay low with the dosage.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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This could definitely work to a degree. People advised me not to use bupe to get off kratom.--considering that it is a stronger opioid and in addition long lasting.

But it actually worked. I was on bupe for a bit over a week and started to even abuse it (predictable of me :LOL:). After my last strip I did use quite a bit of adderall for three days following bupe cessation since I could not feel any opioid/opiate whatsoever during that duration of the bupe still being within my system.

I did not have any physical symptoms of kratom withdrawal following those three days--just a bit of mental gloominess/fog (I'm sure you know what ahedonia is like by now). I'm actually back on kratom but in surprisingly very low doses which is nice. I just missed it's buzz due to the quarantine isolation and boredom.

I guess the point of this post is that you can calculate withdrawal down to a wire and so and so drugs to mitigate symptoms... but in the end there is an unpredictability of it all. At worst should this fail you'll just end up lowering your tolerance for kratom. I know you don't want to be on it anymore, but I can definitely tell you based on the present that lowering your kratom tolerance is super worth it. Kratom high just isn't as good as oxycodone/heroin, but there's something special about it's antidepressant property that it actually seems to be very involved in my life as a "medication" would be.. I think for longer term users like us it may actually be much harder to quit than stronger opiates. Ironic.
 

albatross

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Aug 1, 2012
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I think the one "pro" to what you're thinking is the switch to Hydrocodone would switch up receptor activation as in going from myriad of alkaloids to a straight Opi. I couldn't comment on equivalent dosages though.
8 months ago I had been on 25-30g kratom a day for years and decided to cut it by at least half and I had no withdrawal. Now I'm at ~10gpd. I went from 5-6g every 4hr to 2g every ohhh like 2.5-4hr at first and kept pushing it out to 4+ hrs. I know you're way up there but it may not be as bad as you think. Taper down on kratom to at least 25-30 a day and then make the switch possibly and then switch to diphenoxylate? I think that's even weaker than HydroC.
 

aspiringchemist

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589
I think the one "pro" to what you're thinking is the switch to Hydrocodone would switch up receptor activation as in going from myriad of alkaloids to a straight Opi. I couldn't comment on equivalent dosages though.
8 months ago I had been on 25-30g kratom a day for years and decided to cut it by at least half and I had no withdrawal. Now I'm at ~10gpd. I went from 5-6g every 4hr to 2g every ohhh like 2.5-4hr at first and kept pushing it out to 4+ hrs. I know you're way up there but it may not be as bad as you think. Taper down on kratom to at least 25-30 a day and then make the switch possibly and then switch to diphenoxylate? I think that's even weaker than HydroC.
So this is exactly my line of thought; hydrocodone is a mu receptor agonist only, whereas kratom has some 40 active alkaloids that make discontinuation difficult and a different experience. I have a good idea of dosage equivalents with all my experimenting over the years.

Thanks for sharing your experience tapering down on kratom. I have not actually tried this yet. And yes, diphenoxylate is less potent than hydrocodone; what's actually kind of nice about it as a withdrawal aid is that it comes in doses of 2.5mg and an active dose is 25+mg, so you can easily titrate with it. Also, it has some atropine present which helps reduce GI upset/diarrhea.

I appreciate your response.
 

aspiringchemist

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Kratom high just isn't as good as oxycodone/heroin, but there's something special about it's antidepressant property that it actually seems to be very involved in my life as a "medication" would be.. I think for longer term users like us it may actually be much harder to quit than stronger opiates. Ironic.
I agree completely with this statement, especially the difficulty quitting with long term use and kratom's effectiveness at combating depression (i have treatment resistant persistent depressive disorder; aka dysthymia). Perhaps, as you and others have stated, it would be beneficial to remain on a lower dose of kratom daily.

My logic behind the buprenorphine is that I just want stability. I have to dose 10g-12g every 3 hours no matter what and it's a pain in the ass for sure.
 

aspiringchemist

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I will say that with the acute cervical dystonia I seem to have developed yesterday, I am unable to toss and wash because I can't turn my head at all without yelling in pain. So I have been using quite a bit of hydrocodone instead. Basically 20mg-30mg every 4 hours.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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I agree completely with this statement, especially the difficulty quitting with long term use and kratom's effectiveness at combating depression (i have treatment resistant persistent depressive disorder; aka dysthymia). Perhaps, as you and others have stated, it would be beneficial to remain on a lower dose of kratom daily.

My logic behind the buprenorphine is that I just want stability. I have to dose 10g-12g every 3 hours no matter what and it's a pain in the ass for sure.
I'm super convinced there's alternative ways to combat chronic pain. Some might be pretty out there and some might be kind of mainstream.. but opiates of any color are always just a trade for a trade. No one is immune to giving up something somewhere along the line. I totally get how living with chronic pain sucks, but taking a crap load of a substance that barely works anymore just to stay baseline and away from withdrawing is not ideal either.

I really have been enjoying my newfound tolerance with kratom lately. It's not going to last but now I know for the future that even some minor time spend withdrawing is beneficial even if it sucks. I do think that if you can struggle for a bit of time and make your body adjust to lower doses that not only would your pain condition be less noticeable but also you will suddenly be a little bit happier from the additional euphoria that come with smaller doses suddenly delivering more effect.

I strongly suspect stimulants lower your tolerance for any other kind of substance. I have absolutely no way to back up this personal theory of mine but somehow it resets something in the brain. I swear! Stimulants are definitely dehydrating and can wear the body down but if it's only for a short period of time and you treat your body right it balances itself out. I'm not going to say that someone should take stimulants to lower opiate tolerance... definitely not. But I want to look into this more--it could be just because I don't have to dose much of anything when I'm under the effects of lighter stims since I can't really feel withdrawal. Anyways good luck man! :) I really know personally how hard kratom can be to kick... I've kicked other things but never kratom. I think my ideal way out is to taper down as slowly as possible over a super long period of time. I never knew that into my shameful journey into substance use/at times abuse would lead me to kratom being the real monster of it all. Life can be funny that way. The hardest battle sometimes is never what you think it is.
 

albatross

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I will say that with the acute cervical dystonia I seem to have developed yesterday, I am unable to toss and wash because I can't turn my head at all without yelling in pain. So I have been using quite a bit of hydrocodone instead. Basically 20mg-30mg every 4 hours.
You've probably tried it but there's also "shake n' chug" HAH. Basically OJ or a thick liquid in bottle, drop kratom in, shake up until consistent and drink. I use that method.

Yeah I swear if you taper the kratom to ~10g a day you won't suffer. Maybe even try a real low dose of kratom + hydrocodone. Just to get the speedy kratom alkaloid feel on top. It's all gonna be a mind game and I feel for you. Maybe try tiny doses and titrate up throughout the day till stable. The "less is more" thing is def true for me.
 

aspiringchemist

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589
I'm super convinced there's alternative ways to combat chronic pain. Some might be pretty out there and some might be kind of mainstream.. but opiates of any color are always just a trade for a trade. No one is immune to giving up something somewhere along the line. I totally get how living with chronic pain sucks, but taking a crap load of a substance that barely works anymore just to stay baseline and away from withdrawing is not ideal either.

I really have been enjoying my newfound tolerance with kratom lately. It's not going to last but now I know for the future that even some minor time spend withdrawing is beneficial even if it sucks. I do think that if you can struggle for a bit of time and make your body adjust to lower doses that not only would your pain condition be less noticeable but also you will suddenly be a little bit happier from the additional euphoria that come with smaller doses suddenly delivering more effect.

I strongly suspect stimulants lower your tolerance for any other kind of substance. I have absolutely no way to back up this personal theory of mine but somehow it resets something in the brain. I swear! Stimulants are definitely dehydrating and can wear the body down but if it's only for a short period of time and you treat your body right it balances itself out. I'm not going to say that someone should take stimulants to lower opiate tolerance... definitely not. But I want to look into this more--it could be just because I don't have to dose much of anything when I'm under the effects of lighter stims since I can't really feel withdrawal. Anyways good luck man! :) I really know personally how hard kratom can be to kick... I've kicked other things but never kratom. I think my ideal way out is to taper down as slowly as possible over a super long period of time. I never knew that into my shameful journey into substance use/at times abuse would lead me to kratom being the real monster of it all. Life can be funny that way. The hardest battle sometimes is never what you think it is.
You said a lot here. I appreciate the thought put into it and apologize if I don't respond to all aspects.

Regarding pain management, I believe there are other options than opioids only as well. With that said, I've been in physical therapy 4 different times for 6 - 12 months each, I do yoga, pilates, or at least stretching daily. I use pain medications that are OTC as well, plus ice, heat, exercise. I'm not one to say "nothing works but opioids", as I've heard from others, but nothing works as good as opioids and I don't think there's anything wrong with using them as another tool, alongside the aforementioned tools, to manage chronic pain. But, as you said "taking a crap load of a substance that barely works anymore just to stay baseline and away from withdrawing is not ideal either" and I agree with this too.

I haven't looked into things like acupuncture or energy healing though; just not my thing but I dont necessarily discredit them as viable treatment options.

I actually am prescribed stimulants to treat my treatment resistant persistent depressive disorder. I will say that they make a huge difference in pain levels.
 

aspiringchemist

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Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
589
You've probably tried it but there's also "shake n' chug" HAH. Basically OJ or a thick liquid in bottle, drop kratom in, shake up until consistent and drink. I use that method.

Yeah I swear if you taper the kratom to ~10g a day you won't suffer. Maybe even try a real low dose of kratom + hydrocodone. Just to get the speedy kratom alkaloid feel on top. It's all gonna be a mind game and I feel for you. Maybe try tiny doses and titrate up throughout the day till stable. The "less is more" thing is def true for me.
I ended up doing the "shake n chug" but used water as I don't have any OJ and OJ really upsets my gastrointestinal issues. It's been working just fine!

I do think you are correct that if I can successfully lower my dosage that I may feel better and derive more benefit. I've considered dropping the kratom dose and adding say 5mg hydrocodone.

At this point, idk that I'm gonna actually stop right now, like fully quit I mean. Perhaps I should make an effort to lower my dose. I did use the last of my exact last night and am not purchasing any more today.

Thanks for the support man
 
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