Using dxm to reduce baribturate tolerance? Also, barb/benzo cross-tolerance

[ManFromLeng]

Hey all. I have three questions, but first just a brief status: I have access to barbiturates in the form of a Fiornial prescription (the actual barb is called butalbital) as well as a Valium prescription. As a rule I use the Fiorinal for recreation purposes but have started doing the same for Valium. My first question:

Q1: I have read that DXM can be used to keep down tolerance to benzodiazepines like Valium. Does anyone know if it can also keep tolerance down for barbiturates? I've tried searching online and haven't found much of anything on this subject. Perhaps because barbs are out of style now?

Okay as for the second question, I've noticed something. My barbiturate tolerance has remained reasonably low because I can't get much Fiorinal. However, I've noticed my Valium tolerance has skyrocketed. Not too long ago I could take one or two Valiums and be on my ass, but now I have to take many more. So my second question:

Q2: How much cross-tolerance exists between benzodiazepines and barbiturates?

Interestingly, I found this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9477002

The relevant part: "This asymmetry of rapid crosstolerance raises the possibility that benzodiazepines and barbiturates invoke tolerance by mechanisms that are not wholly identical. Therefore, tolerance to the broad range of actions of barbiturates would include crosstolerance to the effects of benzodiazepines, whereas tolerance to benzodiazepines would include only a weak or partial crosstolerance to some of the effects of barbiturates."

Q3: If I am reading that correctly, and the study is accurate, would that mean that taking a bunch of Valiums likely wouldn't up my barbiturate tolerance much? Because honestly I'm cool with that. I'm cool with barbiturates upping my benzo tolerance, but NOT the other way around.

Hopefully I made that as clear as I could. If anyone has knowledge on any of this, it would be much obliged.

 

[kleinerkiffer]

Od -> npd

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Who prescribed you a benzo and a barb at the same time? That's really freaking dangerous, man. Seriously, also considering that valium takes a super long time to get wholly metabolized and leave your system. After one dose, it would take several days for all of the active metabolites to be gone. Do not take a barb within at least a week of taking valium, and probably more. I'm shocked that you didn't know this. Here's a decent source on the matter: https://www.drugs.com/pro/valium.html

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

That will depend upon the user's tolerance to the barbiturate, ho-chi-minh.

My doc on the face of it, would be nuts if he had scripted me the lot I'm on, without my already being well adjusted to them. Chlormethiazole on top of a hefty dose of morphine (can withstand IV doses of a gram, although not scripted thus much, thats just tolerance limit or thereabouts), along with oxycodone, gabapentin and a couple of adrenergic autoreceptor agonists, that both are pretty sedating. But the chlormetabihiazole, despite its damn steep dose-response curve, controls my seizures very well, and produces only very, very limited physical habituation/dependence, even after years of bi-daily dosing, I can still abruptly terminate or suspend use without physical symptoms. If I hadnt't already been a longterm pain patient, that mixture, I'm sure, would quite easily have finished me off.

Its not a barb, per se, but a barb-site PAM, the next best thing to a short-intermediate acting barb, and the ONLY drug I've ever had that compares similarly to veronal, in its subjective effects.

 

[ManFromLeng]

Od -> npd

I don't know what the means...

Who prescribed you a benzo and a barb at the same time? That's really freaking dangerous, man. Seriously, also considering that valium takes a super long time to get wholly metabolized and leave your system. After one dose, it would take several days for all of the active metabolites to be gone. Do not take a barb within at least a week of taking valium, and probably more. I'm shocked that you didn't know this. Here's a decent source on the matter: https://www.drugs.com/pro/valium.html

Thanks for the info. I don't take them at the same time though; when I do barbs I'll usually take them with Soma but I won't mix benzos with them. When I'm trying to get a buzz off valium, I'll take DXM first, but no Soma or anything else. Don't mix alcohol nor opiates with anything either.

That will depend upon the user's tolerance to the barbiturate, ho-chi-minh.

My doc on the face of it, would be nuts if he had scripted me the lot I'm on, without my already being well adjusted to them. Chlormethiazole on top of a hefty dose of morphine (can withstand IV doses of a gram, although not scripted thus much, thats just tolerance limit or thereabouts), along with oxycodone, gabapentin and a couple of adrenergic autoreceptor agonists, that both are pretty sedating. But the chlormetabihiazole, despite its damn steep dose-response curve, controls my seizures very well, and produces only very, very limited physical habituation/dependence, even after years of bi-daily dosing, I can still abruptly terminate or suspend use without physical symptoms. If I hadnt't already been a longterm pain patient, that mixture, I'm sure, would quite easily have finished me off.

For me, I've been taking both Valium and Fiornial for years for therapeutic purposes. Fiorinal for migraines, Valium for anxiety etc. It was actually by accident that I realized how effect Fiorinal was at getting me off. I had one of the worst migraines of my life and just kept taking one or two Fiorinal over the course of several hours and ended up just blasted out of my mind. Since then I use them to get high once or twice a month.

I can't take opiates/opioids myself. They make me incredibly ill, comparable to a stomach flu that lasts several days. Not a lot known about it, but I've heard the term "opioid induced nausea and vomiting" [OINV] tossed around. I also suffer chronic back pain, which is why I have Soma rather than any of the codeines.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

OD->npd means 'other drugs' forum moved to this forum.

And sure. It depends on the dose as well, although it is STILL usually a DANGEROUS combination. The exception is only when someone has been taking both already for a considerable period of time, and has gotten used to the combination.

IMO ho-chi-minh is not wrongly, erring vastly on the side of caution. Having a few traces of metabolites, active or otherwise, hanging around isn't what counts. Its physiological response. If you are still depressed from the action of the benzo or barb then there is potential danger, if its worn off I'd not be so worried. That said some barbiturates, although not fiorinal hang around for a shocker of a long time. Barbital (no longer in clinical use) and pheno are the main culprits, A dangerous dose of barbital can easily mount up from daily use of non-toxic quantities. Half life is so damn long, it builds up and can eventually bite one on the ass. It did me, put me in hospital, I'd been using normal doses, although on the higher end of that dose range, and all of a sudden it hit like a truck, same dose, same frequency, sudden overdose. Otherwise though a very pleasant if antique drug.

 

[ManFromLeng]

So no one knows if DXM can keep barb tolerance down? I tried Googling the subject for a few hours before posting here and obviously failed. I think it's because barbituates are so rarely prescribed. That's really my main question. I don't want to waste dxm capsules before dosing on Fiorinal if it's not going to do anything.

As for the other question, aside from that medical study with the rats, I haven't found much info on benzo/barb cross-tolerance.

 

[ManFromLeng]

Cool, thanks for the info Limpet_Chicken. I do appreciate Ho-Chi-Minh's advice, and could have noted in my original post that I've been using Valium and Fiorinal for a good 2-3 years now with no ODs or even major scares. I do take care to factor in harm reduction. As for Fiorinal's half-life, it is pretty damn long. I've done around 10 spread out of the course of several hours in the morning, slept a good 8 hours that night, and woken up still very much feeling the barbs in my system. I thought at first it might have been psychosomatic but it kept happening. I certainly wasn't complaining.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Research will not be being done in respect of medical applications, because the only reasons barbs exist in clinical practice, aside from induction anaesthesia w/ e.g thiopental or methohexital, and a few who take pheenobarb or that old prodrug of pheno, forget the name, but even the latter is being phased out, cant get it here anymore in the uk. Pheno, yes but not the prodrug. Imo docs probably cant wait to be able to stop scripting real barbs like amobarbital and seconal to those few old grannies who have been taking them for decades and cannot in good conscience be forced to stop now, for the zero good it would do one at the end of their lifespan.

No its not psychosomatic, BE CAREFUL!

 

[ManFromLeng]

Thanks again for the info. I sort of figured there wouldn't be much info for the reasons you noted. Personally I'm just happy to have the Fiorinal and hope that continues. I think I'll keep taking a therapeutic dose of DXM before the barbs - it's not too expensive and if there's even a chance it'll keep my tolerance down, I'll take it.

Yeah I realized very quickly it wasn't just in my head. The first time I wasn't 100% sure what was going on, but the second time removed all doubt. Granted, that probably means the stuff is absolutely hell on my liver/kidneys, but meh. As said I only do it once or twice a month. I'd do it more if I could get a larger script, but perhaps it's for the best that I'm kept on a leash here.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

How does butalbital compare to other barbs, and if you've had either, chlormethiazole or bromethiazole? particularly curious to know how it compares to barbital. That stuff had one hell of a kick to it. Only difficulty was, due to the halflifande, it ended up being aimed at my backside

If the liver/kidney remark is due to paracetamol, it can be easily removed if the barbiturate is in the form of a salt. If it isn't, if its the free barbituric acid, then salt it, using a group I metal hydroxide, magnesium salts might be soluble too but not sure. Thing with the barbs, the solubility curve is the inverse of most drugs where freebases are soluble in nonpolars (E.g alkanes, benzene, tolly, xylene, or for the real nonpolar of nonpolar requirements, carbon tet) and the salts are soluble in polar solvents or those with a significant degree of polarity such as diethyl ether, acetonitrile (polar aprotic,a bit different but handy all the more for it), acetone, MEK, MiBK, DMSO (watch it, goes right through the skin, carrying whatevers dissolved in there with it, yes, including the sodium hydroxide/azide/cyanide/insert other nasty polar aprotic-soluble whateverthehell here) you were just reacting your latest project with, if you spill it. And like DMF, it requires one heck of a vac pump to strip it off at the end, FORGET letting DMSO or DMF evaporate in the air, it won't, not until you need to worry about tying your old, grey beard back behind your shoulders to avoid dipping it in solvent anyway!)

Prep a soluble sodium or potassium salt, then add cold water, this will effectively dissolve the barb-Na or barb-K, whilst the APAP has piss poor solubility in H2O.

Oh, and do NOT inject the stuff, especially if its a potassium salt. Alkali/alkaline earth metal salts of barbs are highly basic, and cause severe tissue necrosis 'barb burns' if extravasation occurs or a miss happens. And the potassium salts of course could potentially cause hyperkalaemia and stop your heart.

 

[ManFromLeng]

I have never tried chlormethiazole or bromethiazole, but I used to use the hell out of Vicodin. Loved the stuff. Then one day when I took some, I got violently ill for several days. Same thing happened when I took a single 5/325 Vicodin for legitimate pain: awful nausea, terrible stomach cramps, no solid food for a day. That was the end of my Vicodin fun. Also Fiorinal/Ascomp can contain 30 mg codeine, and I had to ask my doc to prescribe the stuff without because even that would ruin my stomach for a day or two. Anyway.

Keeping in mind that my experience with drugs is pretty limited (Valium, butalbital from Fiorinal/Ascomp, Vicodin, Soma/Carisoprodol, pot), the butalbital high was uncannily similar to a Vicodin high. The thing about Fiorinal/Ascomp is that, for me, the analgesic effect takes a LONG time to kick in - sometimes up to 2 hours. That's why that one night with my mega-migraine, I just kept popping the bastards. And all of the sudden it was like my early days of Vicodin use. Clumsy but not terribly so, full-body pleasure, my mind happy and euphoric, but I was still ME. No drunken loss of self. Since the first few highs the effects have lessened somewhat. It's still a very smooth, pleasurable body high, and I still have that feeling of emotional/mental wellness, but not quite as intense. The specter of tolerance no doubt. By adding Soma, I can extend the high throughout the day. (Also yes I am very careful to limit my Soma intake, and know roughly how dangerous it can be when overused with opiates, benzos, barbs, etc.)

My liver comment was more off-handed than anything. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable about drug science and pharmacology as you, but I will certainly look into your advice. What I mostly meant was, if I can pop my Fiornial/Ascomp in the morning, be high the whole day, sleep, and still feel the effects the next morning, I was worried how hard my liver was working to purge that delicious poison from my system.

Again though, thanks for the chemistry lesson. That was the science-y class I sucked most at in school.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Hm, I have seen opioid responses like that before, although rarely. One girl I used to know in my teen years, a good friend, she was suffering from some really awful menstrual pain, cramps etc. So, I gave her a single 30mg dihydrocodeine tab. Not strong, pretty middling weak opioid, a step above codeine, around as potent as tramadol iirc. Could be mistaken as I avoid tramadol like the plague, its awful shit in my book. Hate it. And this coming from a guy who's bought, grown, semisynthesized and cooked from scratch all kinds of smacky good/badness, to the extent of having a taste for subtleties where the morphine ester type opioids are concerned, kinda feel hard done by even with GOOD heroin, or pure uncut H synthesized from pharm morphine sulfate, if no propionic anhydride or propionyl chloride is left for dipropionylmorphine Tramadol...just...ew. And the esters of desmethyltramadol should NOT ever be atttempted btw, do not go there. Not good news AT ALL.H

Anyhow, this girl, she took the DHC pill, and ended up in a very very narcotized, nauseous state, barfing her insides out etc. Off that one 30mg DHC tab and nothing else, although we may have smoked some weed, can't remember, years ago this was.

Similar result to what would happen to me if I could get say 2g morphine sulfate in one rig and do it in one go, without the displeasure of becoming a pincushion in bipedal mammalian form.

Science lesson? lol well np. Actually it was my schools that sucked worse than *I* did in science. First school, a special school for classic autism just didn't HAVE a science class or specialist equipment or teachers. I had to quite literally take iuZthings into my own hands and teach myself. Could NOT be fucked coloring in stupid worksheets on the damnable weather cycles. Know all that shit to begin with, don't need to turn it into an art class fit for a paraplegic marmoset. Tended to spend my nights doing things like distilling iodine from KI, iodine tincture etc., making fresh batches of reagents for my mycology studies, boiling up vats of caustic soda in my bedroom to be chlorinated for sodium chlorate production (one gets chlorate if the caustic be hot when the Cl2 is introduced, just hypochlorite when cold...and kids being kids..I wanted something I could use to make things go 'bang', way too much for my own good haha.

And just occasionally fucking things up royally, and ending up for ex. blasting one of my mom's favourite vases into bits after a failed attempt at molten salt electrolysis...shouldn't have tried using the house mains supply hahahahaha That went off with a right bang alright, spattering molten fused caustic soda EVERYWHERE, along with graphite fragments from the shattered electrodes, as for the vase, it was a basket case, so to speak, quite beyond any hope of use for anything other than recycling for boiling stones. And don't even get me started on the likes of chloroacetone going exothermia big time and resulting in a volcano. Or equally foul acrolein fumes belching back up the sink in my face when I accidentally flushed a sample with hot rather than cold water. (chloroacetone and acrolein are both nasty ass lachrymatory agents. tear gases in other words. Not pleasant. Shoulda seen my ass diving for cover, cursing the air positively corrosive, in several different languages when that chloroacetone krakatoa decided to get going suddenly!) Kiddie's chemistry sets never did satisfy me, other than raiding them for a few things I hadn't got about, like cobalt salts etc. Over the years my set just got bigger and better and not to mention a fucking drain on my wallet! not that I can complain, my own fault for not being able to resist treating myself to a nice new bit of glassware

As for the bromethiazole, I doubt its used clinically anywhere at all, that came from said chem set gone wild. so to speak. Just substitute an appropriate bromine containing version of whatevers your chlorinating agent du jour for the moment. Thiamine is the appropriate start point, two steps, a hydrolysis and halogenation. I'd not reccommend using the bromo derivative often as its going to be more of an alkylating agent than the chloride. I've never tried the iodide, iodine is way too good a leaving group.

Lol in my other school, one of the two chem teachers, knew what I was like, and clammed up way too much when questioned on e.g organic rxn mechanisms, or the finer points of e.g hydrazine synthesis or HNO3, HClO4 production etc.

 

[ManFromLeng]

Yeah, there hasn't been a lot of research on opioid-induced nausea/vomiting, but from what I've read, for a small percentage of people, opiates/opioids can sensitize nerves in the stomach/intestines and cause them to start firing off, signalling pain, distress, whatever. On one level I really miss Vicodin/hydrocodeine, but on another it might not be the worst thing. I did my best to keep my tolerance for the stuff down, but I was needing 30+ mg to even feel a buzz after 2 years of consistent use. Luckily I had my Fiorinal/Ascomp experience right around then, so I just switched to that. One poison for another, heh.

Oh and I forgot to mention, I have indeed used Tramadol/Ultram. And agree that stuff is terrible. Did it get me high? Yeah, after about 12 of them. And then for the next several days it felt like I had been hit by a truck. Looking back - and keeping in mind that I have no medical training - maybe it was the Tramadol that messed my stomach up to begin with. Because it was around the Tramadol use that *any* opiate started messing me up.

So you fall on the autistic spectrum? My parents were told by a few of my teachers that I might have because I was a weird kid and am now a weird adult. In the end it turned out to "just" be a combination of obsessive-compulsive disorder (notice how many of my posts have been edited, oftentimes repeatedly...) and schizoid personality disorder. I've done volunteer work with a few kids with some level of autism, usually tending towards the Asperger's end. They're refreshing in their lack of bullshit and always with such intense fascinations.