Opioids Update on bupe for my depression

[dimulants]

Ok, so as I posted about in the previous thread, http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-vs-Vicodin-questions?p=12990158#post12990158, i was curious about bupenophrine for my depressive symptoms.

Tried a small dose, maybe around 1.5 mg, or even less. It didn't do anything for my depressive symptoms, other than slightly numbing the pain of depressive thoughts, but it mainly caused sedation, not as a pleasurable sedation as the first times on benzos at it. Moreover I felt a slowly throbbing tension headache more or less for the duration. It's the kind of headache I get when very depressed, except more throbbing and persistent. Usually a headache goes away after I sleep or sometimes get nauseous and throw up, but this one stayed with me after I woke up, as throbbing.

On 2nd look, it's the naloxone that counters the opioid effect, thus rendering it not very painkilling, how absurd. As someone mentioned subotex may be the thing due to being pure bupe. This headache kind of feels like it came from the substance I took. Also, like during depression related headache, I got a hint of nausea after many hours of throbbing, so in a way suboxone trapped me in a depression hole, minus a bit analgesia. It felt like a mix of sedation, analgesia and headache, but due to the headache whatever positive effect got negated. Sedation, depression and headache isn't a nice combination, again save for whatever painkilling effect. But when just leaning back passive with eyes closed the headache went a way and it felt sort of comfortable, then as soon as I'd do any sort of activity that required any concentration, i.e concentrated, the throbbing came back.

Wondering if the studies on buprenorphine for depression tested pure bupe. Can't think they'd test it with naloxone, aka subuxone, as it'd interfere with the study on bupe's effect.

Naloxone is the opposite of opioid/ate, go figure. It's a depressant for cryin out loud, why would I take that. But it was never mentioned wherever I read.

Good thing with bupe is it's really long acting, if it wasn't for the headache. If it could keep the pain away for that long it'd be useful, at least for while it stayed effective, which is certainly better than nothing.

 

[Gordon]

Am assuming your sleep patterns are during the night? what worked for me was sleeping during the day and waking around 4pm or 5pm, taking my sub dose, then going outside to run or play sports for few hours, this will enhance your endorphins, speacially with the bup taken just before you work out, that will keep you mentally and pshycally happy for the next 24 hours, trust me it works. If I took my sub dose early and worked out later then I will not actually feel that good, it would be like the excercise is sweating the bup out so I would feel bad mentally, even with excercise, but if I excercisd straight after taking my sub dose it mixes with our endorphins and creats double the endorphins, but only if you wake up in the evening and take your dose then, you have no depression , no anxiety or headaches, trust me it works, try it if you can..If you have work and cannot then I don't know what to say, but what kept me well for 8 years on bup without feeling bad was taking my sub dose when I woke up in the evening and then doing cardio.

 

[Mysterie]

did you get sublingual strips? if you spit it out after you have let it dissolve under your tongue for 5 minutes then you get pretty much all of the suboxone and very little naloxone.

from what iv read bupe isn't really a very useful antidepressant when considering addiction, withdrawal and long term potential benefit.

have you though of trying cbt/exercise/agomelatine or tianeptine

 

[dimulants]

Am assuming your sleep patterns are during the night? what worked for me was sleeping during the day and waking around 4pm or 5pm, taking my sub dose, then going outside to run or play sports for few hours, this will enhance your endorphins, speacially with the bup taken just before you work out, that will keep you mentally and pshycally happy for the next 24 hours, trust me it works. If I took my sub dose early and worked out later then I will not actually feel that good, it would be like the excercise is sweating the bup out so I would feel bad mentally, even with excercise, but if I excercisd straight after taking my sub dose it mixes with our endorphins and creats double the endorphins, but only if you wake up in the evening and take your dose then, you have no depression , no anxiety or headaches, trust me it works, try it if you can..If you have work and cannot then I don't know what to say, but what kept me well for 8 years on bup without feeling bad was taking my sub dose when I woke up in the evening and then doing cardio.

Yes, I did think whether it would've made a difference had I taken it before being active, and the fact I took while passive and stayed passive made me wonder whether it didn't get a chance to mix with the system so to speak, sort of like after eating food staying passive will make you tired but will increase energy when on the go.

did you get sublingual strips? if you spit it out after you have let it dissolve under your tongue for 5 minutes then you get pretty much all of the suboxone and very little naloxone.

from what iv read bupe isn't really a very useful antidepressant when considering addiction, withdrawal and long term potential benefit.

have you though of trying cbt/exercise/agomelatine or tianeptine

Wasn't sure about the spitting out part, thought it'd mean less bupe/waste. I didn't see why the naloxone wouldn't be absorbed with the bupe, but may look it up.

Well, as for not being useful long term. Imo a conventional antidepressant taken long term without benefit isn't more useful. Having been on all the classes, am done with sticking with them just play good to a doctor. I should pretend they work just to make doctors happy, while my life is ruined.

Wasn't sure if bupe would result in tolerance like other opioids. From what i've read it seems many are on it long term. Besides I'm not after the high. It's more like with pain patients, take morphine to get rid of the pain not get high.
And yes, I've tried exercise, more than once. Obviously when depression is severe normal activities aren't the answer. Let alone diet, I mean who hasn't had diet changes. I do cbt all the time, it's the least you can do. But you can't think yourself in or out of extremes. I need either brain surgery or a powerful antidepressant, that's antidepressant according to its users not marketing btw. Bupe is one such compound, and lo and behold, a buprenorphine based antidepressant is coming out in a not too distant future, so I thought I'd figure out now if bupe worked for me then suggest it to a shrink in the future, if i b alive.

It was a pill, not strip.

As for agomelatine or tianeptine. Yes, I was interested in those due to different mechanisms of action, but they're not available in where I live, see.

 

[Mysterie]

i get tianeptine from ebay for cheap, if you live in the USA you can prbly do the same if you have a .000 mg scale. its popular with the nootropic crowd

theres other websites you can find it as well, and shipping shouldn't be a problem legality wise

better option than bupe imo

i know what its like to have no energy, sometimes doing things no matter how small in order to look after yourself can have a cumulative affect as well as helping us to not give up hope on getting better

 

[dimulants]

i get tianeptine from ebay for cheap, if you live in the USA you can prbly do the same if you have a .000 mg scale. its popular with the nootropic crowd

theres other websites you can find it as well, and shipping shouldn't be a problem legality wise

better option than bupe imo

i know what its like to have no energy, sometimes doing things no matter how small in order to look after yourself can have a cumulative affect as well as helping us to not give up hope on getting better

Reason for trying bupe is that I'm done trying the weak pills offered by prescription, which really are weak, aside from most working on serotonin and/or norepinephrine.

Why is it you think bupe isn't a good option? Obviously opium related drugs can be risky, but bupe stands out from other opioids as having been studied as antidepressant plus being used for opiate withdrawal, as opposed to mostly or even widely as a drug of abuse.
After so many ineffective standard antidepressants I 'bow' to bupe for the sedation it caused. I thank the power that be for a drug that "has" an effect, not just bothersome side effects. Even if bupe won't work, I won't complain down the road knowing it did at least a difference where you can see that it could've worked.

I also agree about doing small things is better than nothing. Finding new drugs to test is one such thing for me, otherwise I'd have given up totally, which shrinks pretty much wanted me to do, offering more of the same. And thanks for suggesting tianeptin, had no idea it was available rx free. Though since it's a TCA and prescribed by shrinks in certain countries, I have some skepticism about it being anything that'll make a difference. I'm miles past placebo, hence when some speak of things like wellbutrin being amazing for energy, I cringe, it's a weak sugarpill like, dopamine version of an ssri, same about most supplements. But tep does sound fairly interesting based on what I've read, based on its mechanism of action, so I may well look into it, and probably would've already had I known it was obtainable.

 

[crzydiamond]

Naloxone isn't active in suboxone. First thing--naloxone is not active orally. Second--the bupe has a stronger binding affinity than naloxone.

People often get headaches from suboxone.

Wish you luck though in your search

 

[Ub3r]

Naloxone isn't active in suboxone. First thing--naloxone is not active orally. Second--the bupe has a stronger binding affinity than naloxone.

People often get headaches from suboxone.

Wish you luck though in your search

I agree, the naloxone was added as a deterrent for IV use of suboxone (since many addicts are IV users).
But even then, I was addicted to suboxone for almost 2 years, injecting 6mg every day. The naloxone doesn't have any effect whatsoever, because bupenorphine has a higher binding affinity to the receptors than naloxone does, making naloxone completely useless for its projected purpose.

I think the more concerning thing with you OP, is using a highly physically/mentally addictive opioid such as suboxone, when there are more natural, less addictive remedies out there (such as kratom).

AKA you're using a firefighter hose to put out a lit match. it's way overkill, and will be detrimental to you in the future.

 

[dimulants]

I agree, the naloxone was added as a deterrent for IV use of suboxone (since many addicts are IV users).
But even then, I was addicted to suboxone for almost 2 years, injecting 6mg every day. The naloxone doesn't have any effect whatsoever, because bupenorphine has a higher binding affinity to the receptors than naloxone does, making naloxone completely useless for its projected purpose.

I think the more concerning thing with you OP, is using a highly physically/mentally addictive opioid such as suboxone, when there are more natural, less addictive remedies out there (such as kratom).

AKA you're using a firefighter hose to put out a lit match. it's way overkill, and will be detrimental to you in the future.

May be, but I thought prescription antidepressants were undewhelming, also tried supplements, seeing no symptom relief. I guess when saying i 'bow' to bupe it could've been taken the wrong way. I just appreciated a substance that had an effect on the mind besides negative side effects unlike virtually all antidepressants I've been on, including when I slept 20-30 hours at a time. But I'd say the bupe trip wasn't much stronger than a pot high, to me. I hardly crave another dose. It didn't have the mood boosting or activating effect I was looking for, although the analgesia could be called a fairly positive effect, I mean if something numbs pain, even if it doesn't raise mood per se, it's still better than nothing. The positive effects were negated by strong sedation and throbbing headache.
.
Will check out kratom, though if it turns out opioids/ates aren't what I need, i may move on to something else altogether. If it turns out I can be on bupe without headaches, and yet feel some painkilling effect on the mind, it'd be very good to know that for the future, in case a situation required minimal distraction from internal discomfort. It's like with other mind altering substances that I've tried, it's good to know their effects in case need arises, as well as their limitations. Take alcohol, it can work well for the right occasions, but cause impairment in others. On a side note, I doubt even heroin would have a highly euphoric effect on me, I think I'd get mostly numbness and sedation. When the brain isn't working properly many drugs may be felt differently, take when the brain's pleasure or reward centers aren't functioning properly. For example once I became severely depressed alcohol intoxication went from increasing fun to making me feel despair and suicidal, not emotionally numbing.

Naloxone isn't active in suboxone. First thing--naloxone is not active orally. Second--the bupe has a stronger binding affinity than naloxone.

People often get headaches from suboxone.

Well, there goes that hope then. I thought there'd be no way an opioid would cause headache, being a painkiller. Then read up on naloxone and it seemed to fit the picture, even that it has headache as a side effect. o well, didn't have too high expectations on bupe to start off. If it's bound to cause headaches, then at worst it'll be just yet another attempted antidepressant that caused more side effects than relief.

Thanks for your input.

 

[crzydiamond]

Strangely, I used to get headaches from oxy sometimes. I thought exactly what you said--if it's a painkiller why do I have a headache? But I read in various places then that people do get headaches triggered by recreational opiate doses

 

[dimulants]

I read too of ppl getting headache from sub. Also read some mentioning spitting out the dissolved pill to get rid of the nalox.
Are you sure nalox doesn't get absorbed, i mean, the tablets are meant to be absorbed, as are the strips.
I will try the remaining mg under a different circumstance.

 

[pinpoint]

OP have you looked into ALKS-5461? It is a combination of bupe and a selective mu-antagonist (known as samidorphan) that just completed phase III trials with results expected next year. It looks very promising except for the potential for dependence however considering the relatively intense withdrawal syndrome caused by cessation of serotonergic AD's, this wouldn't be too bad for treatment-resistant depression.

 

[crzydiamond]

Naloxone undergoes heavy first pass merabolism that makes oral dosing basically ineffective

medscape.com/viewarticle/441915_3


When naloxone is dosed IV with buprenorphine, the bupe has a higher binding affinity that would knock the naloxone off receptors.

 

[TheLostBoys]

Depression sucks man.......have antidepressants made your depression worse since you've started on them?

I had a serious headache the first time I tried percs & thought why I had a headache after taking a pain med......but at the beginning of trying opiates, sometimes it can happen.

I've never taken bupe, so I can't comment about it, but hood luck in finding something that helps you live a meaningful life.

 

[dimulants]

OP have you looked into ALKS-5461? It is a combination of bupe and a selective mu-antagonist (known as samidorphan) that just completed phase III trials with results expected next year. It looks very promising except for the potential for dependence however considering the relatively intense withdrawal syndrome caused by cessation of serotonergic AD's, this wouldn't be too bad for treatment-resistant depression.

Yes, I have, and was pleased about the fact that a drug like this would come at this point in time, and so soon after ketamine got attention. In my life time, and not at the end of my years. Thought that was a pipe dream back during the serotonin guinea pig days.

I'd read of bupe years before, and never thought a drug based on it would be developed, especially then since the drug companies were said to have all but stopped new antidepressant research. But I'd known about bupe and antidepressant for too long to wait for another year or two for alks to know if it worked, which is a kind of pity since it would've been a legal, approved way of trying it.

Not only do some serotonergic drugs have withdrawal symptoms, the fact that they don't work is combined worse than opioid withdrawal to me. I went through paxil brain zaps and even vomits, didn't even care, was more concerned that the drug didn't work squat. I wasn't going to get better just had I tapered off paxil. Thus, if an opioid drug had withdrawals but did provide good symptom relief, withdrawals might've been a worthy price. Drug tolerance is a much bigger issue. Hopefully with ALKS they manage to minimize tolerance. And hopefully it won't cause headache . If I could manage to feel bupe without headache, I might look forward to ALKS, as the headache, as I said, distracted from any positive effect. Though again, bupe didn't have a mood lifting, energizing effect, it still felt dark and off when walking outside while on it, except sedated, which was more telling than the headache, but gotta give it a cpl more tries in a different state of mind.

 

[pinpoint]

^ Well, for one the naloxone can cause headaches, and I know people who switched to Subutex for this reason. You should really attempt to find Subutex and re-attempt your experiment. If that's not possible for you to source I would recommend the aforementioned spitting technique.

 

[dimulants]

Depression sucks man.......have antidepressants made your depression worse since you've started on them?

I had a serious headache the first time I tried percs & thought why I had a headache after taking a pain med......but at the beginning of trying opiates, sometimes it can happen.

I've never taken bupe, so I can't comment about it, but hood luck in finding something that helps you live a meaningful life.

Yea, I hope it's only in the beginning you feel headaches. Now, when you have a drug at hand, whether it'd be pot, booze, opioids or otherwise, at least you want to experience some positive effect, so it's not all wasted. So if I at least get to feel bupe without headache, it'd be much better.

I would say serotonin drugs made me feel somewhat worse, in that they added flatness to an already flat mood, i.e the opposite of what i needed. Never felt I miss an ssri or such. More like, since they're the go to 'antidepressants' you kept expecting results, for a while.


Yea, depression sucks. It can be life redefining. And it's not all about sad mood, it can also be about not feeling shit, but not in a good way, that's why I craved drugs at first, to 'feel' again. Severe apathy and emotional emptiness are as bad as they sound. If it was for a few days or weeks, it might have been interesting, but not chronically. Anxiety and other negative feelings get to be felt in a more raw way, since the endorphins and dopamine that normally serve as buffers in the brain are lacking. Yea, no wonder some turn to drugs.


There are bunch of drugs we could try out that may be warranted, it's just that they're off limit. There are even some drugs for physical conditions that have actually been shown to have antidepressant qualities, albeit not in large dbl blinded studies, but still, that we can't even try even once, unless we fell ill with the disease. Another research area that could bring positive change is in brain imaging, so they could actually diagnose depression positively. The depression symptom check list that exists today isn't that useful, it doesn't mention things like apathy, emotional flatness or dysphoria, mainly generic symptoms like sadness, lack of energy, irritability, which many non depressed could click with, wonder if not many shrinks don't even take it seriously as well, thing is at the shrink's office you're temporarily hopeful, at least for a while, but even shrinks that know better have tended to be limited to serotonergics.

 

[dimulants]

^ Well, for one the naloxone can cause headaches, and I know people who switched to Subutex for this reason. You should really attempt to find Subutex and re-attempt your experiment. If that's not possible for you to source I would recommend the aforementioned spitting technique.

Ah, that's what I was conflicted about, had read the same thing regarding switching to subutex. Guess I just have to try the remaining mg and see, will try with spitting.
I think at the end of the day something regarding adrenaline would be helpful for me. I'd be interesting in taking adrenaline, though not too sure it would yield the same effect as a natural adrenaline rush, which in my case made me feel alive again, as opposed to only fight or flight. But lacking that I gotta try things like bupe.

 

[dimulants]

An update, tried it again with spitting out the dissolved mix, swallowing just a minimal amount. Ta ta, no headache, just the opioid 'bliss', so to speak. And while that's cool and all, it wasn't that different to me from a good pot high, let alone early benzo highs. I'd say when anxiety was very high, to the point of insomnia, benzo was a godsent, more so than opium was for me today, save if I'd had severe physical pain and opium drugs worked best. In short, i don't really see opioid addiction being a threat. Thing is it doesn't clear up the mind, brighten mood, increase motivation or any shit like that, which are overdue to me. And benzos are probably definitely better for stress, which I have my share of. Still, good to know I could take bupe without headache. I love drugs which do their job.


I also went outside instead of remaining passive and laid back unlike the first time around. Still wonder just how much bupe helped or didn't help, versus self made CBT I also do. It is possible it helped a good deal with making the social anxiety and mental stress less painful. I've got to try more times to be sure. Great that bupe has such a long half-life, normally I worry the drug's worn off. Gives you more time to verify. Also something about not feeling like a total pill popper. Gives you room to forget having taken a pill.

But good lord, am I bored. Anyone wanting to know what depression emotional emptiness and apathy are like, extreme boredom is one. Boredom's better than pain, but makes you lazy. Not even good food, music or sex seem very fun, what's left, other than drugs. But not even heavy drugs can replace life's own fun. Thus if I could feel energized and motivated again, just being able to want to do things would be way preferable to being high on opium. That's why ketamine sounds interesting, repairing damaged neurons and such.

Wonder if not the bupe comes across in this post vs previously. A little easier. But the mood's still dark and damp. Indeed, probably less mental pain, but still dark mood so to speak. Sort of being in hell on a pain killer, still sucks. I'd thought coke would be able to lift that, but it didn't.

Now case some puritan would say, of course coke doesn't help it's a illicit drug. At least it made a difference in symptoms unlike all prescription antidepressants.

EDIT: After fourth try I have a better idea of what pube does. Last time around I was worn and tired, from lack of sleep and other things affecting how I perceived bupe. Bupe clearly has an antidepressant effect, it actually Does increase motivation. I was out all day getting things done, where normally I've to push myself to get anything done before missing rest, not because it's fun but because my energy levels are that poor. Bupe seems to help keeping the optimism up which is superb, no prescription antidepressant has done anything like that. Normally I get bogged down during the day, feel everything as half empty, or sometimes outright futile or hopeless, and have to fight those perceptions which takes more energy leading to more fatigue and procrastination. On bupe I kept at it like I would've in younger pre-depression years. Was no big deal getting one errand done and then the next, and perhaps another. Haven't spent that much active time outside in years, never mind had a desire to revisit outdoors in between breaks, even after having spent many hours out, and all of it because it didn't feel as miserable to pure exist as it normally does.
Moreover, it also helped with that dysphoric headache I always get, especially when mentally fatigued. When trying to land in a positive spot mentally it meets me with a dull but firm headache and dysphoria rather. Well, bupe was the first compound to numb that headache and dysphoric reaction, which made it safer to go out and try and be about. After all bupe is an opioid which are painkillers, thing is OCT painkillers usually don't do any for depression headache, which feel deep inside the head, not externally. Possibly it takes opium to get at that part, inside. Would seem to make sense that a more exotic drug was in order this time, after so many failed conventional substances.

So when bupe wore off the next day I could feel the dread of hell returning, losing energy to get things done, thinking more about withdrawing. Everything steadily reverted back to less drive and motivation, and the surrounding and people turned from ok or neutral back to depressing (as in hopelessly disconnected from where i was), and it started feeling lonely, which it is it's just that I've been there all along. That seemed to reaffirm to me that bype had an antidepressant effect, and it's important to experience such when chronically depressed otherwise you start blaming yourself, not knowing if it's biochemical or not, which is in itself depressing.

I'm right now on Ativan, nowhere near as fun as bupe. Yea, it makes you chill and sleep easier, but doesn't increase energy or motivation like bupe. So my bad in the first paragraph saying bupe doesn't do anything for motivation, it seems it does. Now tolerance will be the next battle. Thinking even if tolerance hits, the painkilling effect take longer to reach tolerance, and if it can keep numbing the mood triggered headaches it could still be helpful, more helpful than any standard antidepressant, even if mood didn't go up, less pain means it would anyway.

Hopefully the up and coming drug ALKS will work as well as bupe, or even better, as far as boosting drive, energy and motivation.
So I'd say if bupe doesn't erase all or most mental pain, it does have a pain killing effect and boosts energy/drive and motivation to get things done, which make for an antidepressant effect, even if not perfect. Tasks and activities didn't feel like brute chores, like they normally do That's big to me. That's what an antidepressant ought to minimally do, make a difference in functionality and activity levels, if not fully vanquish depression. Bupe was enough to achieve that, and that makes it a candidate in my book.