Heroin troubles with subs, let me have heroin, please?

[speedballs_over]

For my *600th* post since I joined under the name "speedbal_racer" in 2004: My benzo issues aside... that's a different beast but the two are conspiring to kill me.

I've been on the sub-dope-sub roundabout and am finding it difficult to exit. 36 weeks a year it's just subs, the others - as soon as I realize I "forgot" to pick-up and / or take my sub for 48 hours and I'm off to the dope man.

He's always there for me. You know, call the #, meet up, he's smiling, "No way duuuude, never any fent in my boy" .

Long term users - what's your best ORT / MAT / whatever you call using an mu-agonist/mixed-agonist medication for getting and staying off dope is? I'm not looking for kratom as an answer - that's not going to work with my lack of self-control.

FUCK!!! I wish we had HRT programs here in the US, or a supervised injection site at minimum so I could get my gear and get well safely before I take the rest home - I usually go by the exchange, get my works and buy a ball of bth - that's a few days worth. Heroin is the only opioid I want in my body, methadone I would accept. Subs I hate, they don't do shit for my cravings.

I'm not particulalry interested in meeting other users just to have someone to use with, that doesn't fit my rural lifestyle unless I had a roomate who was a user / dealer. That's no answer.

I feel if I could get methadone I'd be fine. It gave me four years of no use before I switched to subs a decade ago. I could deal with dosing daily, clinic rules, fight the benzo issue and so forth but getting to the clinic daily just isn't an option.

So it's; subs.... heroin.... subs.... heroin, heroin, heroin subs.. I've been testing my dope - no fentanyl, none since I was using ECP a year ago, now it's all bth.

Any thoughts? Failing on subutex, wanting heroin but would settle for methadone but simply can't get to it. It saved me before, I'm afraid with subs I'm going to OD. I live and use alone, one extra super important reason those two fent test strips the exchange gives me each day I p/u are absolutely critical to my survival, but will not ensure it.

My family is aware and scared. 600th post and I'm right where I was when I made my first, I'm simply 15 years older.

fuck me.

A huge thank you to everyone here at BL who has helped me over the past 15 years, and 600 posts - some of which I hoped helped others! Cheers...

Re-cap: the HR question is how do you stick to subs when they don't deal with cravings and dope is so fucking easy to get, yet methadone is a huge hassle? It feels hopeless.

 

[JamesB1985]

If your not taking your subs for 48 hours and then run out and use why not try the Sublocade injection so you don't have to worry about taking suboxone and you can't 'Not' take it because it's already in your system.

 

[Keif' Richards]

If your not taking your subs for 48 hours and then run out and use why not try the Sublocade injection so you don't have to worry about taking suboxone and you can't 'Not' take it because it's already in your system.

I must agree. This would take the factor of choice out of the equation, which sounds like your primary problem. If you don't want to do that, Methadone is your only alternative. Buprenorphine doesn't do it for me either. It actually increased my usage of other drugs. Look at it this way, if you're good, you will eventually get a take-home script. It's not a lifetime of daily dosing unless you cannot halt poly-substance usage.

 

[speedballs_over]

Thanks guys - of course staying with my subutex - I'm fortunate to be prescribed the tiny ~80-mg pill weight Hi-Tech tablets which dissolve well under my tongue - is the ideal outcome. And Thus far in my over a decade with bupe I've had about 12 relapses of significance.

I'm not in a terrible situation at all. I have barely enough subs. I'm using bth I have tested myself before use, twice with each batch, for fentanyl. There is NONE but the dope - it is raising my tolerance very quickly to where 8-mg I/N bupe isn't helping but for like six hours once I go back to it.

I won't go over 12-mg/day I/N but some days I have to go that high. In fact for sure this relapse left me with a much higher tolerance much faster than a four week run on ECP, much that tested positive for fent last fall! I barely had to increase my dose from 0.2 to 0.35 last fall over that time and the return to subs was uneventful.

Kindling now, and / or I've got my hands on some very potent bth, both possible. I wouldn't know which. I only used three days last week. But there's a fat eight ball at 2x the gram price my plug is "holding for me". Nice guy always my best interests in mind.

I won't IV subs, and man the pills I have are not perfect ingredients but are the perfect size, like dilly 4s. But regardless of how it is prepared unless it was ampules from a pharmaceutical manufacturer, even then chronically - no.

True - my issue is wanting to take my subs and not use heroin. It's just difficult. I'm an older addict, I want drugs less hard on my body - OK, that may be oxymoronic or bullshit - whatever - but to me good quality bth heroin is much softer on me than amps, equal ROAs w.r.t dangers from IV-ing and that ime long experience bth is least likely to give me an abscess. Much less likely. I had my fair share of 'em but not in over a decade. Trying to keep that up.

I recently dropped high dose Vyvanse from my prescribed meds by asking to be taken off of it - but I think that was helping me stay away from the H! Damn it. I know it was... been like this before.

(Un)fortunately in my home area quite nice looking methamphetamine HCl is making a big comeback as "glass" or "dope" - fuck me I hate when I get a rock of glass when I asked for "dope"!

Dope = heroin! I've always been able to catch that mistake in time and make the correction though.

So my current supplier's presumably got pretty HQ glass too, I haven't tried it yet. No interest especially as 40% of all street drugs (but imo not as much with "pager" dope, not at all) here has been testing positive for fent - and that's by people thoughtful enough to get the free strips and test, which I hear from the HR people is forcing dealers to reduce or eliminate fent in dope - maybe why it's showing up elsewhere? That and it's cheap as hell. Get people buying street drugs high as fuck and addicted, fent wears off first saving alot from ODs but not always.

Smoke that contaminated glass, snort that fent coke for a long weekend and - boom withdrawals so who do you call...

Nice marketing trick. As long as you don't kill them.

Anyway, thank you for the words of encouragement to go with using my subs as directed, you are correct and it is in my best interests. I've lost access to all veins except a few in my hands (but not wrist!). Back door it isn't useful unless maybe I'm in pretty bad w/ds, was empty but I could hold things tight for 15 - 20 minutes to absorb it. It did work a week ago, nicely. Longer high it seemed, not as intense.

That's my current ongoing struggle - willingly giving in to cravings, stopping my bupe and finding a dealer on the quick if my prior one's is out of biz.

So, so easy. Faster than McFuckingDondals drive through. If I make most plugs wait five minutes b/c I'n stuck in traffic - they're on my ass - this is recent and I think maybe a sign meth is more popular, more calls, but dope is in higher supply atm - need to get rid of it.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Is there any effort at all in the USA for introducing a third option at this point? I recall there being discussion of how slow-release morphine has worked elsewhere . . . ideally, a purpose-made extended/controlled/slow-release tablet of morphine with 15 per cent of the dose in the colouring on the tablet (with ER morphine generics now it is 1 to maybe 8 per cent), or as loose powder in amongst beads in a capsule so that there is an immediate-release blast of morphine right away to deal with the cravings probably climbing up the patient's back by that point, then the 8-24 hours of morphine slow release would perhaps be the optimum, with 15 or so tablet strengths and analogues of the medication in different strength ranges and with different dose-response curves, such as codeine, tramadol and dihydrocodeine on the one end and metopon, hydromorphone, oxymorphol and/or and oxymorphone on the other and a couple of synthetics like levomethadone and dipipanone to provide doctors and patients with some choice, perhaps even a SmackContin tablet or whatever . . . it would turn into morphine in the GI tract very quickly as morphine esters do, but rolling the tablet around with the tongue before swallowing it to get the coating on the oral mucosa may provide just a little bit of difference that patients would appreciate . . . I can actually tell the difference betwixt a Vilan (nicomorphine) tablet and morphine PO/SL and the chemistry is almost identical to smack -- they are both 3,6 diesters of morphine.

Then there are the PO and SL medications that feel like one shot them anyways which would be very good for cravings -- dextromoramide and Dors & Fours (glutethimide + codeine, which can even be improved by switching in dihydrocodeine and the like) the latter was looked at in the 1970s for this reason, apparently, and I believe the Netherlands then Denmark, Luxembourg, and Austria have done varying degrees of research on dextromoramide immediate release.

 

[kinkyjohn]

Sad to hear your story .. US attitudes to opiates suck balls and always look utterly fucking stupid to me.

You sound like you just want to be stable and I agree .. subs just don't do that for me either .. they drive me fucking nuts in high doses and they just don't cover the dope sickness (but they do make it so much more doable). I couldn't maintain on subs though as I have no motivation and feel totally wrong unless I stop using them .. I can tolerate tiny doses but something like 16mg is based on my experince .. really really fucking dangerous for me to take (result is usually something like a two week meth bender ending in a huge fent run of escalating overdoses offset with meth till I pass out .. crazy crazy dangerous!). Hopefully you're not like that .. but watch out for signs of it! you're obviously having trouble staying on bupe ... so somehow I feel you might be a bit like me. Apparently a 3rd of people get far less effect from bupe and struggle with it / need much larger doses. Maybe you got lucky with that!

What state do you live in? don't some states have proper methadone programmes? I seem to remember Vermont being mentioned for it's lower mortality rate and crazy number of people of methadone. Could you move somewhere that does? I know it's hard .. but it's not much of a life being an on off junky and a new start can help (or make it worse).

The other thing that might help to reduce the up/down intensity is to use an ROI for the H which has a slower onset. if you can switch from needles to snorting #4 you might find that helps slow you down .. problem is it kinda doubles the cost vs needles but I used it to great effect recently when I was up to smoking 2g H a day - it scratched the itch but broke the constant smoking cycle and before you knew it I was back to 1g as it really reduced the cravings. However .. you know how you and needles, snorting and smoking go .. that might not be workable for you.

I think speed is actually good for scratching that drug itch and it might be worth getting your script back .. but keep the doses low so you remain functional. It can help get you back into healthy activities instead of sitting in a room staring at the wall and feeling shit. Only recommend it as you are clearly experienced with speed .. plus speed has no real withdrawal .. so even if you use it for longer than intended that's ok provided you know you aren't the type to go speed crazy. I also have a speed problem .. so it's just part of my normal arsenal .. and I used to use meth burns .. but as I'm getting old too .. I don't like the way my feet go blue on day 4. I find my body struggles to handle the runs these days.

And good work staying away from other junkies .. at least for me the first rule of junkie dynamics is junky + junky = total cluster fuck. I've done stuff with other junkies I don't want to repeat on a harm reduction board.

Best of luck sounds like your not in a fun place. They always talk about the opiod crisis .. but it's the junkies that have to live through the hell the reactionary politics around it creates. Fuck them .. and their law!.

 

[speedballs_over]

Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough replies, unfortunately I'm way too high right now to the read the replies straight thorough - soon, likely in a hour or two, or tomorrow.

Yeah, the US blows when it comes to access to high quality, evidence based ORT addiction treatment programs - bupe or methadone being the ones I find to be useful. Fuck the pure antagonists, I get headaches. I still to this day get a nasty 45 minute headache if I take one, I believe it is from the naloxone in Suboxone, genine snvery true. I realize that this thread I started is about just that and I will get back to my "OP" post and the replies as soon as I can see straight again for awhile.

In the meantime I managed to get the following questions written in about an hour while nodding in and out - I really could use answers for these asap. If you have something to contribute to these questions and do so - thank you very much.

I would like to have input from other IM heroin users (my alternate method of injecting when IV just isn't happening.

IV is much, much preferred. After I check for fentanyl using the new-ish dip sticks from a local exchange - 2/day free, single use only! This is essentially a UA type of test but you use just the residual crud in the cooker and cotton - from the shot just prepared. No need to waste anything, unless you save cottons and well... that just isn't wise, rather it is painfully self-destructive.

FWIW, if it all checks out OK I usually shoot b/w 0.2 -> 0.4-g bth every 6 - 8 hours - using a very inexpensive micro gram balance to divide doses - actually it does very well for me, anyway...

Sorry for the blather, never sure what people want / need to know to answer and maybe go beyond just an answer, as a few kindly did above. I hope this was readable and not a total mess. I'm still somewhat itchy despite 50-mg hydroxizine and two hours since my last shot (0.1 IV, t=10hrs). Earlier (it's late afternoon to late evening here) - 0.2 IV'd @ (t=0) & 0.2 IM'd (t=6) it is now t=12 roughly. So that's 0.5-g in a day. I suspect that there's still some bupe on my receptors and plan to lower my doses tomorrow (when the 72 hour post-bupe mark has passed). I always do this - buy before my receptors are relieved of bupe's mu-agonism being eliminated. So I start out with a muted high that over two days ramps up and then if I were to keep going by Saturday I'd be experiencing serious w/ds b/w doses , middle of the night...

What rig do you guys use when you've wanted or needed to truely IM, not deep "skin pop" but genuinely in muscle to deliver a decent sized shot of dope, slowly... I stand to benefit greatly from that information - how long a needle do I need to be genuinely into a muscle, where on your body do you push it? As well any prep unique to IM-ing bth dope that folks use that I may benefit from a lot.

I'm relatively thin compared to the adult US population - just 10 lbs over my "ideal weight", per my internist.

Thank you each so much for your time and thoughts. Genuine HR going on here.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

If single-agent naltrexone therapy actually helps, I would think that there is a group of patients who could be helped by nalorphine (Nalline) which was the antagonist used before naloxone and for some reason it has some agonist effects as well . . . nalorphine is to morphine as naloxone is to oxymorphone, and the first antagonist, nalodeine, invented in 1915 and realised to be a useful drug in 1931, is the codeine analogue and therefore weaker . . . in both cases they attach N-allyl groups to the 17 positions on the morphine carbon skeleton, something that also works with some synthetics like levorphanol and similar positions on some synthetics like pethidine, phenoperidine and the like . . . a cyclopropylmethyl group is what makes naltrexone an antagonist if memory serves correctly, and it appears to be responsible for the κ and/or δ opioid receptor antagonism of buprenorphine . . .

 

[speedballs_over]

I've read with great interest the info about the various possibilities for other mixed agonist products. Maybe one would be better than bupe, a higher ceiling does maybe? Fewer side effects? Not so strong binding (that's user talk...).c

I've not read of those (mixed) antagonistic opioids and I'm a pharmaceutical chemist... nice work. Keep us informed as you lean more please, Nic...st (sorry I can't be arsed with spelling it correctly, no offense I just can't see perfectly atm.

I had to stop. The constant worry about OD-ing, the incredibly deep but soleless nods from the fent - sometimes, othertimes I apparently pulled off a chunk without much fent and got the deep, rich, other world nod I love but know could kill me and the isolation when coming out of a dope haze, head on the coffee table and arms tangled around my legs got to me, so when I woke up today it was easier to go smash a bupe tablet and sniff half of that and eliminate the possibility of using my heroin for anothewr 72 hours at the least.

I still have a solid gram remaining. Throwing it out doesn't seem possible. I'd never give or sell it to someone. I may save it for getting into treatment - pissing positive for heroin and fent will get me into whatever methadone program I finally turn my life over to - again (did this 2005 - 2008). They aren't much interested in treating people with methadone around here unless you're an IV heroin user. Otherwise they put you on the shit I'm on now which works like a joke. Little craving control, shitty stimulation and fucks my hormones just as bad as either methadone or dope.

Feeling a bit hopeless at this point. I have my dog, and he means the world to me, but man dope can just make me one lazy motherfucker.... and he doesn't like that. Maybe that's why I took the sub today.

Probably is, having something to live for is important, but remind myself - yourself - that you're worth living for... once you've scrapped the bottom for years you get a different perspective on this shit.

I've been reading the sticky, "Should I try heroin?" While I find it a bit hysterical at times, it's a good thread for old addicts too... especially those of us not trying to kill ourselves and who really do want to pull up out of this ditch, crawl across the 180 degree desert pavement and reach the other side to find a pharmacy that sells methadone on script!

A mirage. O, such a beautiful mirage!

Say what you wish about methadone - in my darkest moments late last night being the 10000^10 time I've been in complete desperation to find a vein and then stop the motherfucking itching with hyroxizine I really need to save for use as an anxiety / sleep aid methdaone would be he most welcome thing I could think of.

12 steps don't do shit for heroin users, ime.

I have benadryl which seems to work almost as well with less sedation, and then there's doxylamin succinate which I chose to reserve for sleep induction when really needed - it fucking works - unless the issue is dope w/d related then there's no amount of benozs - 100+ mgs of diazepam or 5-mg clonaZOLAM will not knock me out when I'm in withdrawal - even the first day of it. I won't even feel it, not the intoxication or anything but I assume for safeties sake that I'm ripped but just don't feel it. I don't drive or anything like that. I wrecked a few vehihcles in my life and almost killed my best friend when we were 21 in an accident b/c I was wasted.

I won't let that happen again.
Though my methods can be maddening. I hid my car keys while really high so I wouldn't remember where I put them t go score more.

Worked too well. I wanted to go score on wedsnesday (it's not saturday) and couldn't find my keys! Only in this town have I had dealers who will actually wait for my ass to get my shit together to meet me. Long after most pager guys quit (sundown). Sunup to sundown is the only time I can count on scoring if my man isnlt answering so if I just take a snort of 4-mg bupe before I can get dressed enough to go meet someone I'm good, for 72 hours.

But I can't always do that... not for supply, for I have enough of it from my relapses saved up for a few extra days worth. Subs just don't do shit for me but keep me well (that is HUGE!) but for cravings - nah, not shit.

Would the fucking USA just make it easier for everyone - regardless where you come from, a citizen, if you're here on a visa or are here without papers - whoever the fuck you are you're a human so do this and solve some of the issues immediately -

allow every sub physician to prescribe methadone from a pharmacy UK style - but with a look at the UK system to see if there's anything we could improve upon.

Then as fast as the first state to legalize recreational marijuana and get it on shelves of new dispensaries -15 months- we could have a nationwide, any pharmacy access to methadone.

I live a good 60 minutes from where I meet my guys, and also from the closest methadone clinic. I live in the rural rocky mountain west (LA was long, long ago...) and I don't give a fuck about LE and them figureing out who I am. I can't give them anything they want so I may as well list my phone number and ask for calls of support!

Joking.... sort of.

I....... need..... help!

I do not want to leave my 79 year old mother to live her last decade, decade and a half with the pain of loosing me.

I'm thoughtful enough to believe she would prefer me alive, until I have a rig in my hand. Then the thought is - the other rig I loaded - with the perfectly clear, lovely looking solution of an opioid in it - can I reach that one in time if I got a hot shot? It's naloxone sitting in a a loaded rig waiting to be IM'd if I feel I over did it.

Does this fallacy of belief I could save myself help? I guess. It's pathetic though.

Please I ask of my government - let me buy me clean dope like the cannabis we have here and so I can drop the needle. If it were pure enough even a very high habit of a gram of pure dope / day could be handled I/N. Or if necessary a clinic that could help me taper with IV heroin to a level I could sniff at and then help me maintain there.

I hate shooting up, unless it's very fast and easy and these days that means 30G 5/16" rigs on my hands... and wrist, but I fear that artery right in the no go "box" at he inside of the wrist that I learned about at the exchange. I never knew you could hit an artery with a 5/16" needle, I guess it is possible.

I tried smoking it last night in desperation to get a nod without killing myself or risking infection (I've probably shot 5 IMs and 20 IVs of this tar in four days - half clean of fent, the other half tested positive - that's what I'm saving, for what .... IDK.

US methadone programs - I have problems with the clinics, I refuse to give up cannabis and I need benzos to survive literally and figuratively. That usually means daily dosing.

Again sorry for the disarray I usually write much better but I'm writing through tears and feeling really hopeless.

All the sub did was make it so I can't use the dope I have on hand for 72 hours... If I take sub again tomorrow another 72 hours...

but at some point that dope I have put away will come out, something will happen. I'll realize I missed a bupe dose and think, oh two more days and I can use!

Fuck this battle. Sometimes a 0.45 to the temple seems the best answer but I wouldn't do that to my dog or my mother.

Sorry for the babble.

 

[totach]

I just finished a couple months ago with my last sublocade shot and it seems to be working well . I only got 3 shots in total 300,300 and the last 100mg. It’s bin over 60 days since my last injection and I’m either having slight withdrawal or it’s a placebo just cuz I’m alittle depressed . You should look into and see if your insurance will cover it . You will have no chance but to stay sober cuz you will overdose before you breakthrough and get high . So Eventho your not the biggest fan of bupe atleast with sublocade you will not get high and you won’t be sick .

 

[speedballs_over]

Thanks! I just came here to post abut the bupe depot injections (if that's the proper term for the bupe shot, IDK).

?s: dose/day , ease of access (need it be a bupe physician, in the US)?, is it sole active buprenorphine Hal, NO alone?

Thing is my recent use of high quality heroin (most batches tested fent free and still cut through 8-mg I/N bupe from 12 hours earlier!) And I've taken bupe since 2008! One recent batch of suspected nearly all fent really pushed the tolerance. A g of that and... compulsive dosing until almost dead - and then it's gone...

Back to subs again... I/N which I don't like but is all that holds me - every 12 hours, 6-mg roughly each time, spread over an hour or more.

So with this injection would I still be getting high as I can and do now? I know nobody can say for at all but personal experiences are very welcome to help me decide.

I WILL not do naltrexone. Nope. Never - worked on that drug in pharmaceutical development, fairly effective to reduce drinking in alcohol abusers but sheit for the majority of opioid addicts - serious hard core IVDUs of many years - to get along with that one - rare, rare...

 

[totach]

I tried every which way to get high two weeks after my first injection . I tried every roa and nothing . Then I tried again a couple times through out the three months and absolutely nothing . Then I tried 45 after last injection and still nothing . Now I’m at close to 90 days past last injection and I don’t even crave to get high ( unsual) but if I had to guess I would guess that my receptors are still occupied by bupe and I still wouldn’t be able to get high . And yes they are called depot sites.
No there is no naloxne in sublocade , it’s straight bupe .
no it’s not easy to find a doctor that does it . It’s to new to the scene but in sure you can track one down . They might have to specifically order it for you . You should ask your current sub doctor if he does or can refer you to a divot or that does it .
It’s over 2k a shot if you don’t have correct insurance . But I’m sure there’s coupons and stuff but start looking into that.
I am very glad I went thru with this, probably one of the best decisions I’ve ever made in life . I was part of a study orelse my insurance wouldn’t cover so I got lucky . I was never able to stay on suboxone maintenance the correct way without skipping days and getting high or breaking thru the little dose of bupe I took .
I would highly recommend it .
Lmk if you have anymore questions .
Ps: it’s funny cuz when j went to the study to sign up I thought I was signing up for a vivitrol study. I didn’t even know sublocade existed I know about the other implant one . So kinda ironic because I was pissed when I found out . I kicked cold for 20 days prepping for the vivitrol shot just for them to tell me it’s over and now there doing a sublocade trial .
After all that pain I didn’t wanna go back to subs but hey I did it and I’m glad .

 

[speedballs_over]

Thanks totach - that's a lot of good info. FWIW I would have been pissed had it been the other way around for me - thinking I'm getting bupe when I'd be getting naltrexone instead.

I haven't tried a full agonist. I genuinely believe I have an endorphine deficiency from an early age if not genetic, my thoughts are vivitrol would acerbate that low level of natural endorphine. Maybe not. Depression? I've never had it. I think some found it caused it for them.

It's too dangerous out here - I'm going have to pack it in and go with something that I absolutely cannot break through and the only thing I know of is high dose methadone or perhaps a vivitrol or bupe shot. Totach up there has me wondering if bupe depot would work the same for me. I can bust through 4- to 16-mg insulfated bupe taken over a few hours in the AM, with about six hours in between last lines of bupe (final 2-mg) and a 0.3 shot of good dope w/o fent or maybe just a point if it's just fent.

My test shots are usually 0.05, but even that's getting hairy if I were to stop bupe altogether.

I did not think 0.3 of H would ever break through bupe. Not on day 1 of not taking it much less the same damn day. I always had to wait 72 hrs. Now I'm using both bupe and dope (w/ & w/o fent) to stay well. Fuck me. Who the fuck does that?

Not that I encourage anyone to try but for HR's sake - has anyone had vivitrol and used fentanyl and had it break through? I mean what if one were on naltrexone therapy and needed surgery?

Similar thing happened to a friend of mine who was taking I think 12-mg Suboxone when she was in a bad car accident. It took heroic amounts of fentanyl citarte IV to calm her and that was after they maxed out the dillaudid IV in the ER (32-mg ?).

Would 'high dose' IV fent not cut through vivitrol for analgesia? I'll look that up myself. Let's not post that unless it's truly for HR sake.

I was shitting my fucking pants today trying to do business b/c 12-mg sub wouldn't hold the tolerance I got from a few day run with bupe, reg & fent dope.

The fent batch I got may have been all fent (see my post elsewhere from earlier, right before this one). No itch, very odd for bth. Same plug a week ago had the 6-MAM / half-cooked acetic acid tar that itches like mad - just the rig going in can itch if it's not washed off first - but with some antihystamine I dig it.

It's just too scary out there and not much used to scare me, then again I used to have half of my friends alive. From the first to the nth it's changing me and all this fent shit... I can't get well, I can't get right safely.

Pls don't use alone. I've fallen out enough times within seconds to know I cannot narcan myself even with a loaded rig of it in my teeth while I plunge a hit. I've gone down before the plunger hits 0.

Please keep a buddy nearby. And advocate for more shooting galleries, errr I mean safe injection sites.... yeah, that concept!

Let's be safe and end this fent disaster by pushback - test your material and fuck plugs that can't get you clean shit. I know... but if we do it enough over time...

 

[totach]

I would say in positive you can’t break thru but everyone’s different . I was also able to take no mater how many mg suboxone or subutex and break thru . The only place I’ve really managed to read about people’s experience with sublocade is Reddit. A lot of them were also part of trials since sublocade was only approved a year and some change ago. From all the posters , there is only one person that claims he gets to break thru . Literally only one person out of the few hundred posts I’ve read from different people.
Don’t get me wrong not evreyone scores sublocade a 10. Again everyone’s different but this is our lives on the line and I was willing to take the gamble and try to win it back . I was very skeptical of the blocking effects since bupe never really worked for me period! Not with cravings and not with preventing me from using .
with the sublocade after I tried the multiple times I did . The cravings kinda went away cuz I knew I can’t get high no matter how much I wanted to . That time I tried after 45 days I shot 3 bags and thought I was gonna die . I got a crazy histamine reaction and a lot of symptoms of an overdose but didn’t feel .000001 of any of the dope .That was the last time I tried and now it’s close to 90 days since that happened .
Withdrawal from the sublocade is still kinda non existent. I’m really not sure if it’s gonna come or not but after 90 days I doubt it will and if it does atleast not like a train. I would think it would come on gradually but I can also make sense of how I can possibly avoid withdrawal all together with the depot shots tapering themselves .
It is kinda annoying and I did feel frustrated when I couldn’t get high when I wanted to . Had a couple moments of wtf did I do to myself cuz I wanna get high and no matter what I do I can’t for atleast months to come . It made me realize how weak I am and how easily I give in to cravings when reallly evreything I felt that way . Wether it took an hour or a full 24 hours that strong urge would fade . So I think I learned some important copping skills just because I couldn’t get high Eventho I wanted and even tried to .
so yea I highly recommend it but remember it expensive and you need to get your insurance onboard and find a doctor .
lmk if you have anymore questions .

 

[speedballs_over]

Thanks for the extra detail. I may try it... cost isn't a big issue. I'd prefer methadone but the hassles in the US and the drive I'd need to make is long and bad in winter - so methadone isn't really an option - although it's an option when I'm thinking of preserving my life.

I am a bit wobbly at the moment so apologies if the following is a mess.

So, the depot is an option or I can do methadone if I want to shackle myself to the clinic. For various reasons I'll never earn take outs, the regulations would need to change for me to get them & not to have to drive six days a week and piss for them on demand. Fuck me - 15 years of UAs, I hate 'em.

This fent shit has got to me and I don't want to die and I use alone most of the time. I test my dope for fent with strips so at least I know to expect the itch and not to just drop over - if I have the strength and time to ditch a bad batch and re-up. Some days that just isn't possible.

I decided a few days ago that for HR I'll go ahead and smoke a lil of my dope first if it's tested positive for fent, about 0.05 max, using a milligram balance of reasonable quality, taken in three hits, a minute apart roughly.

I have to prep a shot to use the fent strip properly, so instead I've been remixing my dope thoroughly as possible and testing a tiny amount sampled from around the bag / chunk / shards after a good mixing - as much as possible.

This is such a fucking hassle!!

Usually I will shoot 0.4 of decent bth or 0.3 of ECP (if I'm out there) whenever I'm not close to 65 - 72 hours off bupe, I back that down about a point each day until the third day and then I shoot 0.2 about four times a day. That was my ideal situation for planned relapses. ) 0.8-g / day habit. Though for sure it becomes 1.5 quickly and without fail.

The times I chose to use I always go buy the dope b/f I've stopped the sub a full 72 hours... so I waste a bunch ruining s/l subutex for myself but I do get the itch and the warmth - but no rush until 72 hours - then it's like I'm reset and using less than I was when I used daily fifteen years ago for tje first few days. I quit my big habit at 1 to 1.5-g of Arizona border town bth.

Those were the days... I do not recall well. But the nod... ah, the fucking nod I loved!

I can't have that tonight b/c I am alone. Too risky - too many people like me or so I'd like to believe, it'd be terrible for me to go down and out permanent style just to get high when I don't have to in order to stay fairly well - closer to well than full w/ds, but not quite well enough, hence all this back and forth about what to do.

Thanks again for the sublocade (sp?) info. It means the world to me that you took the time to lay it out for me.

Using fent dope is ending tonight, with me alive in the AM and ready to get my shit straight for the rest of the week. That means see the doc, work with my plugs to let them know the score from my end. And keep my supply a few days ahead so I can afford to get caught throwing a batch or two away and no re-upping immediately.

I'll tell my plugs - I'm throwing out anything that tests positive for fent after today and I expect a re-up of fent free dope that same day or I'll just call dude #2 or #3... and you my friend can call me when you've got my replacement!

I've shown them the test strips - "ah, shit" one said under his breath, that one I'll call last this week to re-up, if at all.

So this week I hope to sort my sources into two categories - plugs that have a say in what they market and those that do not. I won't be an ass - but just to know this and have them know I know... it may help.

I'm a bit older, so I tend to get a break when being a hard ass about quality or price breaks, etc... I didn't want to get overly pushy but the past two weeks have been so up and down with the subs not holding me and me having to use heroin or heroin with fent daily on top of bupe - well now I'm well past 72 hours. So I'm stockpiling bupe.

Methamphetamine is so damn popular here now - heroin is actually cheaper and every bit as good as any time in the past decade - maybe longer - and easier to get from runners vs. the street or "the spot".

It's when the fent creeps in the equation it all goes to hell.

Some shorter time heroin users here are giving up on heroin and switching to or adding in meth and lowering their heroin use on their own - sort of - it's part of the cyclical nature of drug popularity and more so probably due to the ODs strewn all over downtown...

The life... ugh.....

BTW - bth, black tar heroin, isn't inherently worse than any given decent bag of ECP (#4 that reeks of acetic anhydride) ime/imo... high quality gear either place. Bth is gross, I get that, but once it's racked up and loaded - it's all the same - with good technique and all that for sure.

Bth isn't the best to start a habit with, but at the same time if it's all you can get locally - I guess it's best to have had to start there. Othwerwise I'd probably think bth was terrible as many others do - it has its fans though, like me - "botulism & typhoid heroin" = bth.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

For my *600th* post since I joined under the name "speedbal_racer" in 2004: My benzo issues aside... that's a different beast but the two are conspiring to kill me.

I've been on the sub-dope-sub roundabout and am finding it difficult to exit. 36 weeks a year it's just subs, the others - as soon as I realize I "forgot" to pick-up and / or take my sub for 48 hours and I'm off to the dope man.

He's always there for me. You know, call the #, meet up, he's smiling, "No way duuuude, never any fent in my boy" .

Long term users - what's your best ORT / MAT / whatever you call using an mu-agonist/mixed-agonist medication for getting and staying off dope is? I'm not looking for kratom as an answer - that's not going to work with my lack of self-control.

FUCK!!! I wish we had HRT programs here in the US, or a supervised injection site at minimum so I could get my gear and get well safely before I take the rest home - I usually go by the exchange, get my works and buy a ball of bth - that's a few days worth. Heroin is the only opioid I want in my body, methadone I would accept. Subs I hate, they don't do shit for my cravings.

I'm not particulalry interested in meeting other users just to have someone to use with, that doesn't fit my rural lifestyle unless I had a roomate who was a user / dealer. That's no answer.

I feel if I could get methadone I'd be fine. It gave me four years of no use before I switched to subs a decade ago. I could deal with dosing daily, clinic rules, fight the benzo issue and so forth but getting to the clinic daily just isn't an option.

So it's; subs.... heroin.... subs.... heroin, heroin, heroin subs.. I've been testing my dope - no fentanyl, none since I was using ECP a year ago, now it's all bth.

Any thoughts? Failing on subutex, wanting heroin but would settle for methadone but simply can't get to it. It saved me before, I'm afraid with subs I'm going to OD. I live and use alone, one extra super important reason those two fent test strips the exchange gives me each day I p/u are absolutely critical to my survival, but will not ensure it.

My family is aware and scared. 600th post and I'm right where I was when I made my first, I'm simply 15 years older.

fuck me.

A huge thank you to everyone here at BL who has helped me over the past 15 years, and 600 posts - some of which I hoped helped others! Cheers...

Re-cap: the HR question is how do you stick to subs when they don't deal with cravings and dope is so fucking easy to get, yet methadone is a huge hassle? It feels hopeless.

It is a mess -- given the history of cyclazocine (also used for this purpose for a short time in the 1960s), the hallucinogenic and dysphoric levorphanol relative cyclorphan and other κ and/or δ opioid antagonists, I have to wonder if the designers of Suboxone knew that buprenorphine had a potential to cause some serious depression and similar troubles -- maybe that was the idea, who knows . . . buprenorphine is so undesirable to people outside the narrow group that has the kind of pain and/or addiction or habituation that it was originally a Schedule V controlled substance in the Controlled Substances Act 1970 in the States, put in Schedule III right before Suboxone came out in 2002 . . . I have heard once or twice that it may have been uncontrolled like nalbuphine and tramadol originally for a few months or so in 1981 after buprenorphine was introduced in the States.

The 30-day injection Sublocade is very interesting and it looks like it could be done in such a way as to last for 90 days and a shot like this is a good tool for both maintenance and chronic pain for those who respond to it well, and maybe other things being researched like depression and anxiety . . . There is apparently no reason the system used for Sublocade cannot be used for other drugs including but not limited to narcotic analgesics and I would suggest nefopam, beta blocker anti-hypertensives, medications used for tuberculosis chemoprophylaxis, some medications used in functional bowel disorders, anti-malarials especially those used preemptively, some benzodiazepines, ketamine . . . Amongst the narcotic analgesics, good candidates for a multi-week shot include morphine, dihydromorphine, smack, nicomorphine, pretty much all of the 14-dihydromorphinones like hydromorphone and morphinan narcotics like levorphanol as well as some of the open chain opioids, the bemidone 4-phenylpiperidine opioids, piritramide and so on. There already are polymer implants with 180 days of hydromorphone used for Opioid Substitution Therapy and chronic pain, and pellets of things like lignocaine and with all the advances in polymers, plastics and all that, I wonder that in the future if there may be some possibility of some kind of implantable device, pellet or whatever with decades' worth of medication in them

Diacetyldihydromorphine and acetylmorphone would probably be very good for something like this as well. The ultra-potent metopon derivatives and things like 14-cinnamyloxycodeineone perhaps work in something like that, fentanils and benzimidazoles possibly too . . . a potential limiting factor would be the therapeutic index of the drug in question, which is favourable in a lot of narcotics but not all. At the other end, from 30-90 days to years, the titanium and/or surgical steel with niobium, zirconium, hafnium and/or titanium piston loaded with that much of ultra-potent opioids sounds like a good idea but I have not heard a lot about his in the past few years. Two hollow cylinders fit together to make a piston, one end has a semi-permeable membrane and the other end has a hole to disperse the medication SC or IM. The piston was proposed to hold a 90-180 day supply of hydromorphone, and of course there are even more potent narcotics from a number of families of opioid analgesics. The piston is implanted in an area of the body with a gradient in salinity, which is what drives the piston. They could advertise it by having Monica Lewinsky say "Want some piston action?"

If there is a way to make a very long acting local anaesthetic shot like this, that would be wonderful for some forms of chronic pain as well. Also, there are many proposed indications for ultra-low dose naltrexone for a whole spectrum of possible indications, and a Sublocade-type shot may be helpful for that too, also proglumide, dextromethorphan and other drugs used to slow down, stop, or reverse opioid tolerance. I have also heard speculation about microdosing diprenorphine, in doses in the mid nanogram range q12-96h . . . I am also inclined to think that patients who can get dysphoria and feel rotten from naltrexone at ultra-low doses may be better served by nalorphine (Nalline), and its relatives niconalorphine (Nimelan) and diacetylnalorphine for this purpose, as like the levorphanol, phenoperidine, pethidine, and alphaprodine analogues of nalorphine, they have a tiny amount of opioid agonist activity as well. Nalmafene (Selincro) is an opioid antagonist used for alcoholism and it may be another possibility for micro-dosing parallel to naltrexone . . . naloxone is of course the oxymorphone analogue of nalorphine and that, the hydromorphone analogue and the codeine analogue nalodeine along with any dihydromorphine and/or dihydrocodeine analogue of nalorphine could also be used for the same purpose, albeit with more frequent dosing, via one route of administration or another.

Speaking of opioid antagonists, has anyone had experience and/or more information about naloxazone (permanent antagonist), chlornaltrexamine (agonist-antagonist selective for μ opioid receptors and 22 times as potent as morphine) chloroxymorphamine (irreversable agonist like oxymorphazone) and the like?

For mixed agonist-antagonist, partial agonist, inverse agonist, antagonist, silent agonist and other such opioids, it seems that butorphanol may be a good ingredient for a multi-week shot, as would be phenazocine, a benzomorphan opioid 7 to 15 times stronger than pentazocine and four times stronger than morphine. I took phenazocine (Narphen, Prinadol) back when it was available before 2004 or so, and like pentazocine and dezocine, tripelennamine really intensifies all of the analgesic and euphoriant actions, even when not injected (the formulation I got was sublingual)

Hydrocodone and thebacon could probably be used like this as well and perhaps dihydrocodeine mixed with cyclizine, phenyltoloxamine, tripelennamine or another antihistamine . . . for example, a chronic pain patient could be given a 90-day shot of morphine, extended release morphine can be added to adjust the dose before the next shot is due if tolerance or changes to the underlying physiological problem require it; oral, sublingual tablets of morphine, morphine nasal spray, and injectable immediate release morphine can be used for acute breakthrough pain or cravings, and something chemically and structurally dissimilar and fast acting and a short to intermediate duration of action like levorphanol, dipipanone, ketobemidone, dextromoramide, piritramide, proheptazine, tapentadol or members of each of their subfamilies of opioids for breakthrough pain really running out of control as a stop gap before getting in to see a doctor about it. A 30, 45, 60, or 90 day shot of a mixture of levorphanol, dextromethorphan, pregabalin, tripelennamine, and orphenadrine with or without nefopam would be good for pain from nerve damage and other pain that responds better to opioids with NMDA, nociceptive, and sigma receptor action.