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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

HatingThisLife

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Dec 6, 2020
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132
No offense to birdup but reply to one of my posts from earlier then. I dare you to call me uneducated on these matters. This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate
I will gladly debate anyone who actually comes with facts. Its not a mental illness and anyone that shortsighted isnt even worth my time in a debate bc there is, in fact, science that influences transgenderism. But dont worry honey Ill go back and read allll your posts and let you know if I think you are ignorant as well! Lmfao!!! Like I said I used to think just like him and then educated myself. I didnt just "buy in" to some ideology. I spewed the same hurtful bullshit that its a mental illness in the past until I learned how wrong, rude, and ignorant I was being. You're coming for the wrong one bc all of my opinions are based on fact, extensive research and thoughtfulness.
 

Perforated

Moderator: SLR, DC
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74 pages in and we still don’t seem to have nailed the essentially constructionist character of both mental illness and science more generally.

Even if transgenderism was deemed a mental illness it would not matter to anyone who understood how we end up having the categories of normalcy and deviancy that we do.

And as a university employee who has written quite a few grant proposals, I can assure you that outside the physical sciences scientific research is starting to only doing research and presenting results that skew towards ideologically influenced narratives.

The last place you’ll find heterodox thought is in academia, though there are a few promising developments like journals that allow papers to be published anonymously.
 

SKL

Bluelight Crew
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Messages
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74 pages in and we still don’t seem to have nailed the essentially constructionist character of both mental illness and science more generally.

Even if transgenderism was deemed a mental illness it would not matter to anyone who understood how we end up having the categories of normalcy and deviancy that we do.

And as a university employee who has written quite a few grant proposals, I can assure you that outside the physical sciences scientific research is starting to only doing research and presenting results that skew towards ideologically influenced narratives.

The last place you’ll find heterodox thought is in academia, though there are a few promising developments like journals that allow papers to be published anonymously.
Exactly.
I will gladly debate anyone who actually comes with facts. Its not a mental illness and anyone that shortsighted isnt even worth my time in a debate bc there is, in fact, science that influences transgenderism. But dont worry honey Ill go back and read allll your posts and let you know if I think you are ignorant as well! Lmfao!!! Like I said I used to think just like him and then educated myself. I didnt just "buy in" to some ideology. I spewed the same hurtful bullshit that its a mental illness in the past until I learned how wrong, rude, and ignorant I was being. You're coming for the wrong one bc all of my opinions are based on fact, extensive research and thoughtfulness.
What @Atelier3 said. What's more, I never said per se that trans-identification was a mental illness, although I did discuss Gender Dysphoria and Transvestic Fetishism as they are laid out in the DSM. Both require "causing clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" to rise to the level of diagnosability under those criteria. I also discussed personality disorders and autistic spectrum disorders (among others) as those are present in significantly higher proportions in trans-identifying people.

But as for mental illness, what is mental illness to you in order that you can say with confidence that transgenderism is not one? I don't say this necessarily to claim that it is, I don't find that a useful or interesting question, but to highlight the fact that to claim that it isn't, just as much as the opposite, you have to be confident in the definition of the term. If you are going strictly on DSM criteria (which I deal with for a living) then I have some bad news for you: the diagnoses laid out in the DSM have descriptive utility but not necessarily ontological existence as such, nor are they an exhaustive listing of what might be called "mental illness" (or else homosexuality would have formerly been a mental illness, but no longer). The DSM exists only as a guide. And mostly a guide for billing purposes at that. The only people who believe those "little boxes" are the be-all and end-all are insurance companies and the laziest of psychiatrists (and it is necessary to have GD as a billable diagnosis in order for insurance providers to pay for medical intervention for "transition"—which, if it is medical treatment, must be treatment for some disorder).

What I mean to say is that whether or not transgenderism is a mental illness is not even a debate worth having. Mental illness or not, it is a phenomenon with consequences for the trans-identifying person, for those around them, and for society at large. Gender dysphoria is a cause of significant distress for the person experiencing it. Co-occuring psychiatric issues are a huge issue. The rate of people experiencing it and trans-identifying in general is skyrocketing particularly in certain populations (particularly, but not only, natal females with certain psychiatric and developmental conditions.) All of these are topics worthy of discussion which are done a disservice by simply dropping a cliché about all self-identifications being valid and all critical discussion being "ignorant" or "bigoted." Otherwise you are very much trafficking in ideology.

I would also particularly like to know what sources your "education" on these matters came from in order to have such a radical change in perspective. Even generally speaking (was it friends? Social media? News? Academia?) I'm not asking you to throw out specific chapter-and-verse citations at this point. My own perspective has broadened and changed as well from doing research with both academic sources and from observing both trans-positive and gender-critical social media spaces.
 
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thegreenhand

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I can assure you that outside the physical sciences scientific research is starting to only doing research and presenting results that skew towards ideologically influenced narratives.
what your thoughts on how to fix this? i see it too. i'm not an employee but i've spent some time as an undergrad assistant in a psychology lab, which is probably the worst offending field of this sort of thing.
 

aemetha

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May 7, 2017
Messages
211
I think there may be some misunderstanding about the DSM diagnosis of gender dysphoria by some in this thread. For the purpose of clarity I would like to explain a bit. The DSM-5 differs from previous diagnosis as it relates to the issue. In previous revisions "Gender Identity Disorder" was considered pathological. That is to say, feeling like you were a different gender to your biological assignment was considered disordered. With the DSM-5 shift to "Gender Dysphoria" it was made clear that the feeling of being a difference gender to biological assignment was not pathological. Instead the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria is solely related to psychological distress or impairment related to those feelings. In other words, if you have the feelings but you're not overly upset or disabled by those feelings - that's not pathological, clinically.

Posters should take a care to separate the issue of gender identity and the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. The two terms are not synonyms. The DSM-5 is explicitly clear on this matter and any suggestion otherwise is simply factually incorrect.
 

aemetha

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Messages
211
so we're assuming the DSM is actually good science... bold move
Nope, just assuming that the DSM is the source of the term and is what is used to categorize clinical diagnoses. Criticisms of the DSM are irrelevant in that respect.
 

SKL

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DSM-5 differs from previous diagnosis as it relates to the issue. In previous revisions "Gender Identity Disorder" was considered pathological. That is to say, feeling like you were a different gender to your biological assignment was considered disordered. With the DSM-5 shift to "Gender Dysphoria" it was made clear that the feeling of being a difference gender to biological assignment was not pathological.
Interestingly this caused some mixed feelings among transgender advocates. Some welcomed the change as depathologizing their situations, others worried that the removal of GID might make it harder for trans-identifying people without significant GD to access medical intervention. The latter concern does not seem to have come to fruition although I assume that for billing purposes everyone getting cross-sex hormones or surgery gets GD entered as a diagnosis, which is necessary for reimbursement.

This discussion leads to another interesting and rather confusing controversy among in the trans community—whether a feeling of gender incongruence without marked feelings of gender dysphoria "counts as being trans." This was a major topic of controversy not at all that long ago but much of the community, mainstream advocacy groups, and healthcare providers in many places including the US, seem mostly to have settled on the idea that self-identification is always valid.

I don't know where to come down in this controversy: I don't doubt that the phenomenon of nondysphoric trans-identification exists but on the other hand, as I've discussed at some length above, having cross-sex hormones and surgery available to all comers has some troubling implications as well. The difference between dysphoric and nondysphoric trans-identification, like many topics in this arena, are under-studied: certainly some nondysphoric trans-identifiers will fall under the AGP grouping (although some AGP complain of dysphoria and I hardly would say they are all lying, even if they come to their dysphoria by a different psychological route.) HSTS type presentations seem to necessarily involve dysphoria at least per Blanchard (perhaps secondary to internalized homophobia) most if not all the time. ROGD by definition involves gender dysphoria or at least experiences that are interpreted and articulated as gender dysphoria, but much of the concern about it rests on that very point—that other dysphorias are attribured to gender, if you will, leading to a number of detransitioners beyond what can be reasonably tolerated. Meanwhile, some of the more radical online trans communities have been known to share "tips" on getting past "gatekeeping" up to and including the "right" answers to screening questions which test for dysphoria.

But what of the balance of cases, which is probably substantial, that don't fall into one of these typologies? What about cases that resemble one of these categories except for the presence (or degree) of dysphoria? And perhaps the most important question of all, does it matter? Should we be treating dysphoric and nondysphoric trans-identification differently? If we don't, how do we conceptualize the involvement of the medical profession in "transition?" After all, the most frequently deployed arguments for such interventions and their funding, especially in the young, revolve explicitly around the treatment of dysphoria. The whole business looks like a hall of mirrors at times.
 
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Mr. Krinkle

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
1,367
alright...so there's no transsexuals even actually in this thread...and that sucks because that's really why i came here...

so i have a question: has anybody here ever actually banged a transsexual or been banged by one?
 
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birdup.snaildown

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HatingThisLife said:
I will gladly debate anyone who actually comes with facts. Its not a mental illness and anyone that shortsighted isnt even worth my time in a debate bc there is, in fact, science that influences transgenderism. But dont worry honey Ill go back and read allll your posts and let you know if I think you are ignorant as well! Lmfao!!! Like I said I used to think just like him and then educated myself. I didnt just "buy in" to some ideology. I spewed the same hurtful bullshit that its a mental illness in the past until I learned how wrong, rude, and ignorant I was being. You're coming for the wrong one bc all of my opinions are based on fact, extensive research and thoughtfulness.

There's nothing hateful about what I said. Mental illness is not an insult.

Your argument that science is on your side is something people do all the time on the internet. The truth is: there isn't a consensus in the scientific world about this... or anything, really.

Depression is a form of mental illness. Anxiety is a form of mental illness. These terms aren't slurs. I don't mean anyone any offense.

The left is coming from a good place. The fact that the world is catering to people who claim to be transgender is a testament to the progress we've made. I admire the good natured motivation behind something that I ultimately believe is misguided. That doesn't make me a bigot.

Fundamentally: I don't think it's good for people to blow smoke up their ass.

We pretty much universally recognize typical bad parenting tropes. There is an obvious cause and effect when you lie to a child and tell them what they want to hear too much. It's not healthy, psychologically. We recognize this in children.

It's often hard to tell people truths that they don't want to hear. To lie to people is to be selfish, is to not care. It is easier than having to deal with someone being upset all over the place. The fact that people virtue signal because are they are lying to people just makes it worse.

Keep in mind, there's a lot of right and wrong in these CEPS discussions, but everything is just a matter of perspective. There is no right and wrong in politics.

You mentioned that you used to share my ignorant perspective. I would think (in that case) you'd be less outraged and more sympathetic in the way you approach me... unless you also hate yourself for being in my position?

If you do hate yourself, you shouldn't.

I'm happy to have a look at your sources, but I assure you that there is no scientific consensus. We haven't been studying it (scientifically) for very long. It is far too early to make any rock solid conclusions. You can argue that the evidence leans towards supporting your beliefs, but that's not something I'm going to just take your word for. You need to explain it further.

Keep in mind, I'm coming from a place of scepticism. My default position is to not believe something extraordinary until there is sufficient proof. I maintain some scepticism about published, peer-reviewed climate change science.

Like Chauvin's trial, there are certain fields of study that are destined to be biased.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Thoughts?
I thought it had been proven that after transitioning several major physical 'advantages' remain and those can't be removed by hormone treatment. There was another athlete but I can't recall her at the moment.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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It honestly looks ridiculous to me, for a sport such as weight lifting as well.
She went through puberty and years afterwards as a man, had the opportunity to put on serious muscle, and a couple years of hormone therapy negates all that? Madness, this is about Olympic medals lol.
 

SKL

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Joined
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Messages
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Introduces the 'MOMMIES' act, refers to women as 'birth people'

WTF?
This stuff is obviously bonkers on its face, but there have been some interesting (and sad) cases, like this one in which a very convincing FtM presented in the ED with abdominal pain, they didn't realize that the individual had female anatomy, and discovered an unknown pregnancy too late. The baby died :( and if my memory is not deceiving me there was another case in which the FtM mother did as well although I didn't find it with a cursory search. The moral of the story is of course whatever you "identity" as, what you "are" biologically matters, and in healthcare contexts it can be a matter of life and death: cancers of the sex organs (which seem to be at elevated risk in people taking cross-sex hormones but the evidence isn't that great on that...yet) are an obvious one but also heart attack presents differently in (natal) men and women.
 

ThePlantofJOY

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Joined
Apr 26, 2021
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It is all really sad, it does not help anyone to force people to do things, for one it causes certain people to do the opposite because they dont want to be told what to do. Most people would be fine calling people what they want to be called. However, passing a law or with threats only causes people to become disillusioned and resentful. Honestly I stopped living as a woman because it seemed silly to try and live as a woman when I looked so much like a guy. I would never tell people what they had to call me, because I dont appreciate being told what I must do for someone else.

So many of the people who are involved in all of this do not even have the issue, and it seems they are only interested in it because it is the trendy thing to do. I am so glad I decided not to try and continue to live as a woman or take surgical steps. It started to require more and more work, and regardless how much work or how much money I put into it I would never look like I had before my hormones changed. The people who argue that having gender dysphoria is not a mental illness need to re-examine how they view mental illness. You would not look down on someone with diabetes, or other physical illness. It should be no different with mental illness. The fact of the matter is even if you dont want to classify having gender dysphoria or being transgender as a mental illness, nearly everyone that has it also has issues like depression, anxiety or other mental illness's. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have several mental illness issues, from depression and anxiety to PTSD and ADD. I take medication for them just like any other condition and it drastically helps me. By telling people it is not a mental illness people are much less likely to feel like they should seek professional help, and that is the worst thing for anyone dealing with these issues. Without intensive therapy and a lot of work, I would more than likely be dead. The suicide rate for transgender individuals is insanely high, its close to 40% have reported having planned suicide and in teens its even higher. This puts them in a very high risk category, people who have the highest suicide rates such as those that are in prison, have chronic debilitating pain, or other high suicide rate groups are still lower than transgendered individuals.

It is a difficult lot in life, and people should be more accepting of them. However, the way that many of them and to a larger degree the "advocates" treat people and shove things down peoples throat's does not help anyone. The reality of the situation is most people are good decent people who are glad to try and accommodate people, there will always assholes, and by regulating things you are treating everyone like they are awful people. Its a very difficult thing to understand, most of the people who are dealing with it have a tough time understanding themselves. This new trend of calling everyone racist sexist a bigot etc, because they dont agree with EVERYTHING the person believes in, is just sad. It accomplishes nothing but making the divide between people further apart when we need to be coming together. I try to be a good person, help people when I can and do what I can to make other peoples lives better. It seems to me that if rather than attacking people for not having the same ideals is down right dangerous. We all make snap judgement when we see someone, its human nature.

The world we live in seems to be getting worse, and its for so many reasons. A good place to start would be to try listening to others, and instead of trying to get them to change, just listen to what they think and why. You might find that you have way more in common than you have differences I will stop there, I could continue but I dont know if anyone cares or wants to read more from me. The last thing I will say is if you really want to help people that suffer from these conditions, be supportive and positive, but dont lie to them and certainly dont be afraid to suggest they seek some professional help. Just as if someone told you they were suffering from pain, or other physical condition, you would suggest they see a medical doctor, let them know its important for them to think about finding someone who can help them deal with these. I truly only want to help people, I am unable to do much these days because of my health, but I continue to try and do what I can. Than you for taking time to read this long post, I hope you have a good day, and that this post was helpful even if just a little bit. :)
 

ChemicallyEnhanced

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By referring to her as "a man competing against women" you are purposefully misgendering her which comes across as transphobic. Even if she is intersex, she identifies as female and therefor should be treated as such.
In regards to whether it's "fair" for her to compete against cis-women who are, yes, somewhat at a disadvantage to her I feel it's a very complicated issue. Both your view and Dravens view on the subject are both equally valid. Should she be forced to take hormones so she fit's in societies view as "normal"? Absolutely not. At the same time, she does have an unfair advantage.
Suggesting that being homosexual has ANY influence on athletic ability is a joke.
You also come across as racist because her ethnicity is irrelevant to the whole thing.

More on the transgirls/transwomen competing in sports: when it comes to teens, transgirls are usually on hormone blockers - which block testosterone in order to delay puberty until they are legally old enough to decide whether they want to stop the blockers and go through a male puberty (which is very rare but does happen) or start hormones to go through a female puberty - which means that they will have the same low level of testosterone in their bodies as cisgender girls. Since testosterone is what right-wingers claim (I'll get to that) gives transgirls an advantage at these sport, that nullifies the argument.
Most transwomen (adults) will already be on hormone replacement and therefor, again, not have higher testosterone levels than ciswomen.

Also the claim of testosterone being an advantage in sport has been debunked. There was ONE study that suggested it had slight benefits but many (the majority) of studies and investigations have shown that is provides no benefit at all, and there have even be results that suggest it might actually provide a detriment in sports performance.

So there is literally no reason why transwomen should not be allowed to be in sports.
If anyone who disagrees (still), just do the basic amount of research into this instead of blindly listening to the lies and half-truths of the right-wing propaganda and you will see reason.
 

ChemicallyEnhanced

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While she shouldn't have to take hormones to fit societies view of normal. I can understand being required to take hormones in order to not have an unfair advantage.

That said though, while I can understand such a requirement. I still kinda think it's silly. I mean. Athletic sports are already about competing over physical ability. And not everyone is equally physically capable.

Some people are more naturally gifted in some athletic activities than others. It's inherently unfair.

Sports competitions try and set all these rules to make it fair, but what's being attempted is already inherently unfair.

Which is why I generally avoid these kinds of discussions all together. I don't care about sports anyway. And I think these rules are pretty arbitrary to begin with.

But, for discussions sake. It is true that men are generally stronger than women. And the reason for that has a lot to do with hormonal differences.

If a female athlete for some reason has unusually high levels of testosterone, she's going to have an advantage over women who don't.

But again, I don't really care about sports. I don't care if she's allowed to compete or not. I'm just saying that it is an unfair advantage. But that I think athletic competition is already a lot to do with inherent ability as much as effort and training. So I think it's all kinda stupid anyway since it's trying to impose fairness on an activity that is by its nature unfair.

Exactly. Also, 10% of women (ciswomen) have PCOS which drastically increases their testosterone levels. Should they be banned from competing in sports, too, because of an unfair advantage? Of course not! And is anyone suggesting it? No. Because the real reason people don't want transwomen to be able to compete in just ignorance and plain transphobia.

P.S. Yeah, I don't give a shit about sports, either. But I do care quite passionately about trans rights.
 

Perforated

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Lots of stuff we’ve been talking to relates to middle class trans people and their woke allies. Just a little bit of intersectional data lest anyone think misgendering or deadnaming or sport are the key issues.

56% of African-American transgender women had positive HIV test results compared to 17% of white transgender women and 16% of Hispanic transgender women.

13 % of transwomen report being compelled to enter sex work due to being discriminated against in most other spherea of life. 1 in 4 trans sex workers are HIV positive.

Figures taken from Wikipedia.
 

ChemicallyEnhanced

Bluelighter
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^^^This is complete bullshit but I’d love to see the link, from what I’ve just read there’s studies which refute this half brained theory as well.

-GC

*one year later updates*

I think the homosexual part is bullshit, but I stand by the part about transmen having male brains and transwomen having female brain (in some cases, not all), but I'd be interested in hearing about studies you have read that have different conclusions?
I may sound stupid, but Borderline Personality Disorder (again, in some cases not all) can sometimes be visible on an MRI (mine literally has been), why not other things like that?*

*I am NOT suggesting being transgender is a mental illness, that is in no way what I was trying to do while comparing BPD.
 

Perforated

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*one year later updates*

I think the homosexual part is bullshit, but I stand by the part about transmen having male brains and transwomen having female brain (in some cases, not all), but I'd be interested in hearing about studies you have read that have different conclusions?
I may sound stupid, but Borderline Personality Disorder (again, in some cases not all) can sometimes be visible on an MRI (mine literally has been), why not other things like that?*

*I am NOT suggesting being transgender is a mental illness, that is in no way what I was trying to do while comparing BPD.
Are you saying gender is biological (based on brain structure) and not socially constructed?
 
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