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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

SKL

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Sep 15, 2007
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well do you guys really need to write a whole novel on the fact that you're too inconsiderate to call the transgendered by what they preferred to be called?
Wow, you really didn't read it. Pronoun stuff gets maybe a paragraph tops in everything I wrote and nowhere did I even take the position that we should insist on calling people by their natal sex.
 

birdup.snaildown

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Somewhere
Mr. Krinkle said:
well do you guys really need to write a whole novel on the fact that you're too inconsiderate to call the transgendered by what they preferred to be called?

If you read SKL's posts you would realize that is not the case, nor is it the case for me. I have repeatedly said throughout the entire thread that I do not misgender people.

I'd prefer you to call me sir.
 

Mr. Krinkle

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
283
Wow, you really didn't read it. Pronoun stuff gets maybe a paragraph tops in everything I wrote and nowhere did I even take the position that we should insist on calling people by their natal sex.

I wasn't lying when i told you i don't read your posts...only reason you're getting anything out of me now is because you're quoting me =D
 

Atelier3

Moderator: SLR
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6,281
It’s a shame that people skim through this thread. The debate has covered all sides and perspectives of numerous trans-related issues in a very nuanced way. In the main, it’s been good natured and well intentioned and treated trans people respectfully (even though there don’t seem to be many here to take offence).
 

SKL

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Messages
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I wasn't lying when i told you i don't read your posts...only reason you're getting anything out of me now is because you're quoting me =D
Well, alright then. People have called me tl;dr on here for more than a decade. I'd encourage you to give it a go, though, if this is an issue you care about. You'll find that, top to bottom, I insist on treating trans-identified people with compassion, and that the research I've done includes learning a lot, first person, from such people. You'll also find a very detailed treatment of some of the more troubling aspects of both sides of the contemporary trans debate.

Even before talking to you I was considering reducing some of what I wrote (I won't even call it "my argument" because I'm not arguing anything) to bullet points. I may yet do this, also adding some extra citations and the like. It would be a bit of a project, though, and I have a few of those.

It is a shame to me too that people don't read my stuff. I have put many, many hours into researching and writing in which I could've been doing other stuff as well.
 

birdup.snaildown

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Atelier3 said:
there don’t seem to be many here to take offence

I've found that very consistently actual trans people tend to take less offense to my opinions than cis SJW activist types.

@Mr. Krinkle

If you don't want to have an in-depth discussion about the issue, then don't. You are currently not contributing anything to the discussion.
 

SKL

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I've found that very consistently actual trans people tend to take less offense to my opinions than cis SJW activist types.
Very true. Some of the younger activist type trans-identified people make it their business to be offended by anything and everything, but a lot of the people who do the day to day policing of speech about this stuff are not trans in the slightest. It is currently a very fashionable thing to get outraged about. The thing is that the people who are the most outraged, however they themselves identify, are often among those least able to have a constructive discussion.
 

Mr. Krinkle

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
283
Well, alright then. People have called me tl;dr on here for more than a decade. I'd encourage you to give it a go, though, if this is an issue you care about. You'll find that, top to bottom, I insist on treating trans-identified people with compassion, and that the research I've done includes learning a lot, first person, from such people. You'll also find a very detailed treatment of some of the more troubling aspects of both sides of the contemporary trans debate.

Even before talking to you I was considering reducing some of what I wrote (I won't even call it "my argument" because I'm not arguing anything) to bullet points. I may yet do this, also adding some extra citations and the like. It would be a bit of a project, though, and I have a few of those.

It is a shame to me too that people don't read my stuff. I have put many, many hours into researching and writing in which I could've been doing other stuff as well.

ya know what it is? it's the yankees logo...you lose me there =D
 
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Mr. Krinkle

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Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
283
I've found that very consistently actual trans people tend to take less offense to my opinions than cis SJW activist types.

@Mr. Krinkle

If you don't want to have an in-depth discussion about the issue, then don't. You are currently not contributing anything to the discussion.

 

LandsUnknown

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Oct 3, 2014
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The most perplexing aspect of gender identity is the fact that some people "identify as nonbinary". I can understand the concept of someone being transgender, but the nonbinary idea changes a lot of really fundamental concepts. Transgender doesn't negate the idea of gender's existence. It just effectively is someone switching their position within the binary. However, the nonbinary concept is more like the anywhere and everywhere at the same time mindset and understanding. There's no clearly tangible and definable reality to it whatsoever, especially with the "they/them" pronouns. Because that almost implies that one can be two things at once, which is basically like Schrodinger's cat.

Also, there's something else I wonder about this whole nonbinary concept. Today, most people who identify as nonbinary are fairly young, but will they continue to when they get older? Will it be a lifelong thing like transgender is or will most of them simply be feminine men and masculine women? Especially since most nonbinary people do not actually take steps to change their physical body. It's usually just a matter of presenting differently. A better approach would be to simply not judge people for doing things "atypical for their gender" and simply let people be themselves. Labeling it as "in between genders" doesn't seem necessary. But I wouldn't not call someone by their "preferred pronouns".

Look at it this way. I think that people fucking suck, and would rather not have to identify as part of the human race. Because most of them are idiots. I kind do feel that way to an extent these days honestly lol. I honestly feel like I'm in a completely different category of species and don't fall into any category, and I am not human or any other species. Oh and because I am so different than everyone else, please call me "the one" or something like that. It's my preferred pronoun now, and admittedly it does sound kind of cool. Would anyone go along with that? That's fucking absurd, but where do you draw the line? At what point does it become just making up words and concepts with no reality?

Though, the more you think about it, what would happen if people went along with this whole calling me "the one" instead of he/him (please don't, because this is absolutely fucking stupid, I'm just explaining a point)? Well, not really anything. What if everyone came up with some ridiculous "preferred pronoun" like "the one". Well, then you could just use people's names and just throw out the concept of pronouns entirely. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with that honestly. However, what if I did start asking people to call me "the one", because I don't identify as human or any other species. I simply don't fall into any type of "species binaries", because I feel so different than everyone else.

What would everyone think about that? Well, hopefully everyone would think that was absolutely fucking stupid and insane. Because it would be. The nonbinary gender thing is obviously somewhat different, but how different? At what point do we draw the line when it comes to snowflake-ism? Or do we even draw the line at all? Maybe not. A friend of mine who was dropping acid and mushrooms multiple times a week for months or perhaps even years on end thought that you could "fly if you really believed it enough". Fuck knows though, how do we really know that there's not some truth to this concept? We don't. Given some of the things that I have researched, it might be honestly. Maybe. Somehow.

So, then why use pronouns at all? It does kind of seem like the they/them thing as a form of "Look at me, I'm different" basically. Though, there is one major exception to this. Intersex. Because there is clear physical reality to it. That is a physical reality there, and people who are intersex really do not need to fit into any binary in terms of gender. However, I don't get how that applies to someone who was born as a biological male or female. Basically, the idea is that pronouns are simply a way of expressing oneself. There's nothing really wrong with that, but what is the point exactly? Pronouns are used for talking about someone, not to them. So, you could just use people's names instead. That being said, I would go along with the they/them thing if I had to, rather than knowingly being offensive to someone for no reason.
 

Mr. Krinkle

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Joined
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Messages
283
well them/they doesn't always work

and if they/them want you to call them him or her, he or she, you can't just do it? you gotta hold out because you don't like it....personally....

none of what any of you say, justifies it - im sorry it just doesn't

it's still disrespectful no matter what
 

LandsUnknown

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well them/they doesn't always work

and if they/them want you to call them him or her, he or she, you can't just do it? you gotta hold out because you don't like it....personally....

none of what any of you say, justifies it - im sorry it just doesn't

it's still disrespectful no matter what
I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying. But like I said, I would call someone whatever they asked to be called. I wouldn't refuse to call someone they/them if that's what they wanted. I wouldn't knowingly offend someone for no reason like that. I was simply saying that I don't understand the concept and reason behind they/them.
 

Mr. Krinkle

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Joined
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Messages
283
I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying. But like I said, I would call someone whatever they asked to be called. I wouldn't refuse to call someone they/them if that's what they wanted. I wouldn't knowingly offend someone for no reason like that. I was simply saying that I don't understand the concept and reason behind they/them.

all good....it was a long post and i kinda got lost in it and then i woke up during the last paragraph

i apologize if that's not what you were really saying
 

Atelier3

Moderator: SLR
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Messages
6,281
^^ Very nice post @LandsUnknown. Actually the non-binary gender thing makes more sense to me than anything else in this kind of position taking.

I feel very strongly that sex is effectively binary at any level of analysis that has any utility but I’d accept that the science may change on that. However having grown up in multiple cultures I feel equally strongly that gender is a social construct built atop the defining characteristics of that binary. Physiological aspects of men vs women have informed the way social roles are defined.

But here’s the thing, there is as much difference in masculine identities across cultures (and through time) as there is similarity. For example, what it meant to be a man in Victorian England was incredibly different to what it meant in the Ottoman Empire. It varied again between classes in those societies. Working class masculinity was an entirely different thing to bourgeois masculinity.

I often wonder whether the would-be defenders of ‘traditional masculinity’ against the forces of wokeness realise just how historically transitory and contingent their model of the masculine really is. Enough to have many of the characteristics of myth.

The sheer breadth and diversity in how different cultures and times have constructed masculinity is matched only by the countervailing process of defining femininity. It also points to the fact that all we really have is a whole panoply of particular traits that have continually been organised, contested, reorganised to map out social roles from which people took their identities.

It doesn’t even really work to say that gender is a continuum as some are wont to do. This is because a continuum requires two opposite poles. In actual fact, the contemporary manifestation of gender would look more like a spider graph / radar chart with varying degrees of dozens of attributes working with and against each other on combination.

So to return to the non-binaries, they are the closest to recognising the multivariate components that only stand for masculinity and femininity at given point in time and at a given place. They then say, since these categories are transparently fluid (for anyone with a historical and anthropological perspective) I can mix and match individual traits to cultivate an identity that is an advance on or alternative to the norms surrounding them. They see through the construct and have the chutzpah to reconstruct it on their own terms.

Now is this an admirable thing that is good for society? That really depends on whether you are conservative or progressive.
 

Skorpio

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Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
539
Location
The zone
The most perplexing aspect of gender identity is the fact that some people "identify as nonbinary". I can understand the concept of someone being transgender, but the nonbinary idea changes a lot of really fundamental concepts. Transgender doesn't negate the idea of gender's existence. It just effectively is someone switching their position within the binary. However, the nonbinary concept is more like the anywhere and everywhere at the same time mindset and understanding. There's no clearly tangible and definable reality to it whatsoever, especially with the "they/them" pronouns. Because that almost implies that one can be two things at once, which is basically like Schrodinger's cat.

Also, there's something else I wonder about this whole nonbinary concept. Today, most people who identify as nonbinary are fairly young, but will they continue to when they get older? Will it be a lifelong thing like transgender is or will most of them simply be feminine men and masculine women? Especially since most nonbinary people do not actually take steps to change their physical body. It's usually just a matter of presenting differently. A better approach would be to simply not judge people for doing things "atypical for their gender" and simply let people be themselves. Labeling it as "in between genders" doesn't seem necessary. But I wouldn't not call someone by their "preferred pronouns".

Look at it this way. I think that people fucking suck, and would rather not have to identify as part of the human race. Because most of them are idiots. I kind do feel that way to an extent these days honestly lol. I honestly feel like I'm in a completely different category of species and don't fall into any category, and I am not human or any other species. Oh and because I am so different than everyone else, please call me "the one" or something like that. It's my preferred pronoun now, and admittedly it does sound kind of cool. Would anyone go along with that? That's fucking absurd, but where do you draw the line? At what point does it become just making up words and concepts with no reality?

Though, the more you think about it, what would happen if people went along with this whole calling me "the one" instead of he/him (please don't, because this is absolutely fucking stupid, I'm just explaining a point)? Well, not really anything. What if everyone came up with some ridiculous "preferred pronoun" like "the one". Well, then you could just use people's names and just throw out the concept of pronouns entirely. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with that honestly. However, what if I did start asking people to call me "the one", because I don't identify as human or any other species. I simply don't fall into any type of "species binaries", because I feel so different than everyone else.

What would everyone think about that? Well, hopefully everyone would think that was absolutely fucking stupid and insane. Because it would be. The nonbinary gender thing is obviously somewhat different, but how different? At what point do we draw the line when it comes to snowflake-ism? Or do we even draw the line at all? Maybe not. A friend of mine who was dropping acid and mushrooms multiple times a week for months or perhaps even years on end thought that you could "fly if you really believed it enough". Fuck knows though, how do we really know that there's not some truth to this concept? We don't. Given some of the things that I have researched, it might be honestly. Maybe. Somehow.

So, then why use pronouns at all? It does kind of seem like the they/them thing as a form of "Look at me, I'm different" basically. Though, there is one major exception to this. Intersex. Because there is clear physical reality to it. That is a physical reality there, and people who are intersex really do not need to fit into any binary in terms of gender. However, I don't get how that applies to someone who was born as a biological male or female. Basically, the idea is that pronouns are simply a way of expressing oneself. There's nothing really wrong with that, but what is the point exactly? Pronouns are used for talking about someone, not to them. So, you could just use people's names instead. That being said, I would go along with the they/them thing if I had to, rather than knowingly being offensive to someone for no reason.

Nonbinary is a lot shorter of a word the conversation "I am a guy who likes to wear makeup and dresses when I am in places where that is a sufficiently low risk activity. I am not transgender, nor do I plan on transitioning."

Berevity is the soul of wit.

Believe me I am most comfortable dressing femme around people who make me feel like there is no real difference between wearing a dress or a suit jacket. I don't like being the center of attention because of how I dress, and will stay dressed masculine to be lower profile.
 
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