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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

SKL

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I do, however, think there's a big difference between saying gay people are delusional and saying trans people are delusional.
The comparisons between homosexuality and trans-identification when it comes to "rights" issues are way overplayed. Leaving aside what anyone makes of the ontological questions of identity, homosexuality doesn't raise any of these—one can wonder why people might be attracted to the same sex, but "I am attracted to women" is making a statement based solely on factors which are based on my inner world and (to use a term that is admittedly not very PC) my preferences. To say "I am a woman," even if this is based on some profound inner experience and the "preference" to be identified as such, still calls for something that is inherently external: "trans rights" issues almost all have to do with not only not being discriminated against for that preference and inner experience but to one extent or another have to do with being treated as a woman by others. None of the desiderata of the gay rights movement, even the redefinition of marriage (which comes closest), have that character. The only analogy there would be to the cake-baking case, which even to a lot of committed gay rights people was an overreach. Most trans controversies are at best analogous to asking people (some unwilling) to bake "affirming" cakes for you and many are considerably more intrusive than that.
 

ThePlantofJOY

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I honestly don't know that you are a male. The only thing I know is that you identify as a man. We all do you the courtesy of using your preferred pronouns. I imagine you wouldn't like being misgendered as female, would you?
I get "misgendered" ALL the time, it has NEVER bothered me. If a stranger calling you the wrong gender causes you anything more than perhaps mild annoyance, you are in desperate need of deep self analyst. 99% of the time it happens its an honest mistake, and the tiny fraction that do it maliciously, is what you are referring to, they are gonna just use something else, because they are trying to get a reaction. What is solved by getting upset with the lady at the cash register saying "have a nice day, sir"? If your grasp on your gender is so tenuous that you cant handle anyone making a minor mistake when greeting or parting, its imperative that you get some professional help!
I have no problem referring to someone by whatever they want to be referred to but just as I would not continue to communicate with someone who becomes greatly agitated if I make a minor social mistake, or do something like mispronounce there name. When I stopped easily passing as a female I began to live as a male. However its not uncommon for people with a full beard and a deeper voice than darth vader, with no outward signs of being female, become full on screaming, cursing and telling people they deserve to die, all because they say the same thing they say to everyone else, a basic greeting. Its absolutely unacceptable to behave like that, and if someone wants to be viewed as a woman, it would be in the best interest to appear as female. Why on earth would anyone call someone with no outward signs of being female, by female pronouns, would that not be WAY more likely to misgender way more people?
 

ThePlantofJOY

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That's not a very good argument. Homosexuality used to be n the DSM-IV too. Women used to be sent to sanitoriums for hysteria when their period hormones made them too intense. The state of mental health diagnosis in the past was absolutely barbaric in many instances.



Fascinating, thanks for sharing your experience. :)
Thank you very much, I am so glad that it was helpful. If you have any other questions or ever want to chat feel free to let me know! :) Hope you have a great day!!
 

birdup.snaildown

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mal3volent said:

I don't care about gender. I think it's stupid. Increasingly, over time, my perceptions have changed. When I look at women who wear lots of makeup now, they look like clowns to me.

Men don't bother with external gender expression as much as women. Having long hair doesn't make you gay. You don't have to shave. You aren't expected to wear makeup or pluck or any of that shit.

It's all nonsense and completely meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

Your original question was something along the lines of: how would you feel if somebody misgendered you?

The answer is: it depends who it is and how they are doing it.

If it's a random person, I wouldn't give a rat's ass. I'd be less likely to hang around with them, socially, but not because I care about gender. If someone called me a dolphin, I'd have the same reaction.

If I was still in primary school and somebody called me a girl, I would probably take offence... because I'm obviously a boy.

Ellen Page didn't look male before she transitioned. She has exactly the same high cheekbones and big feminine lips. She is petite. She doesn't have an Adam's apple. I find her transition about as convincing as Clark Kent becoming Superman.

I've met trans women who look like men wearing dresses.

I will call them their preferred pronouns (and I always have) but it's honestly pretty ridiculous that it's so offensive to not use the word she. Call me a woman, if you like. I have a beard. I don't look female. At the end of the day, it just makes you look foolish. I honestly don't care at all.
 

SKL

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Spitballing maybe, but it syncs with Judith Butler’s view that gender is performative. And a whole bunch of stuff by Goffman on performativity and stigma. I like the idea that for AGP type trans individuals ‘all the world’s a stage and we are merely players’ in some gigantic therapeutic endeavour assembled for their benefit. It’s worth more thought.
Butlerian gender performativity stuff definitely has something to say here, too. Butler herself is an interesting case because she's taken the gender performativity thing to be very expansive and allowing the "freedom" to perform gender as one might like. She has spoken in favor of medical transition up to and including surgery as a part of that freedom. I'd consider this somewhat problematic because, and this is something I've touched on before. at the bottom of everything one is still met with what feels like the idea of an essentialistic gender identity.

Transgenderism doesn't really make sense if you truly believe gender is a construct because the very phenomenon of trans-identification rests on those constructs, and often a very crude interpretation of these at that. You can't have your cake of essentialistic gender identity and eat it too by claiming social construction. Someone like Sheila Jeffries, on the other hand, if I am articulating her position right (neither position here is my own), sees medical transition, and even trans-identification itself, as a sort of violence perpetrated by and on behalf of patriarchal structures which impose that sort of gender identity in the first place.

The idea of playing out one's assumed identity to the world is of course pure Goffman. If I am remembering correctly what he was about he might say that the extreme reactions that some trans-identified individuals have to things like "misgendering" and "deadnaming" are due to a performance which is "disrupted," in effect shattering suspension of disbelief, which in turn disrupts that large part of our self-image which is based in our perceptions of how others perceive our day-to-day performance.

Again, neither a psychologist nor a scholar of feminist theory, this is just how I read things, etc.
 
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SKL

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https://uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

How the tactics of predators and manipulators, forced teaming, gaslighting, boundary violations and ignoring ‘no’, are used in the course of pushing ‘trans rights’.​

Why are ideologies antithetical to each other being presented as natural allies? Feminism argues that gender is a mechanism of a system of oppression, that gender consists of socially constructed sexist stereotypes which are then used to exploit women. The notion that because one is female one naturally wants to care and clean, one by nature of one’s female sex is submissive, polite. LGB rights rests on the idea that same-sex attraction is real and normal and should be afforded the same rights and respect as heterosexuality.

Transgenderism/transsexualism, in contrast, claims gender – women’s oppression and sexist stereotypes – are innate, or sometimes that the body has to be altered to conform because of oppression discomfort disorder. Gender dysphoria claims that the person is wrong, not the cultural sexism, exploitation or oppression. It avows ‘change the person, not the system’!

Alongside this, as the idea of human sex change has been successfully challenged and is not widely accepted, transgenderism/transsexualism began denying the reality of binary sex and its importance, which thus denies the reality of same sex attraction. Same-sex attraction is being manhandled into ‘same-gender attraction’. If lesbians can have penises, sexuality becomes an attraction to sexist stereotypes, mannerisms and fashion choices. Neither feminism nor LGB rights are comfortable bed fellows with the men’s rights activism which emerged in the late sixties and early seventies in the form of transgenderism/transsexualism. This deliberate coupling of opposing ideologies is an example of wide-scale forced teaming.

Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t.1 It builds trust when none should be there.Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement.

Forced teaming is behind the dictate of inclusiveness. It is by this way that manipulative males gain access and can control and change the goals of movements. It is how individual males have entered formerly women’s groups and formerly LGB pressure groups and can both watch what is being said and direct the narrative.

The oppressed can’t form a critique and challenge when the oppressor is sat at the writing table looking over her shoulder. The presence of the oppressor also guts the arguments that are made – it makes them situational rather than absolute, ‘but this one is nice’, ‘sometimes people are born wrong’, ‘he calls himself a lesbian but really knows he isn’t, just be polite’. It opens the door for bargaining women’s rights and boundaries, for negotiating the reality of same-sex attraction. Predators use forced teaming to recruit co-conspirators to fight their battles and do their bidding.

Individual women within a movement can be targeted by manipulative men as a way in, and then as a justification for their continued presence. This is usually done through isolation tactics so that the message can be tailored to the individual – they are told what they want to hear – and a false sense of the manipulator confiding in the target is created, the victim is now ‘special’ and a ‘friendship’ has been made. No one wants to contradict or question their friends, right? If the manipulated individual questions whether they and the predator really have shared needs and wants they will then struggle to distance themselves from the manipulator through either feelings of guilt or embarrassment. They now share in the abuser’s actions.

The movement and individuals are then used to deflect criticism in another way. The manipulator will, when faced with criticism, suddenly praise individuals or groups in an attempt to further tether themselves to them or hide behind them. It is hard for people to say ‘please don’t give me compliments’, making the tactic so successful. It is important to be aware of patterns of behaviour: the groomer will make you feel like you are different, the pattern shows that you are not.

The reliance on gaslighting (making someone doubt their own reality and perceptions)– it is at the heart of the idea that a male is really a female or honorary female, it is at the heart of transgenderism/transsexualism. This gaslighting indicates that we are dealing with abusive males, why would they not use another technique of manipulation?

Alongside this, boundary violation is key. The first boundary being the definition of woman, then female, the next boundary is one’s sense of self, then physical spaces and resources are violated. We see boundary violation on the micro level – what trans widows experience, the young men taking nude selfies in women’s shelters – and on the macro level – the males in women’s parties, claiming to be female politicians, males claiming to be included in the definition of the female sex.

De Becker asserted that if someone ignores the word ‘no’ it is the most universally significant signal that you should not trust this person. Males have asked again and again to be included in the definition of female, again and again they will not hear women’s ‘no’, they have used our single sex spaces after repeated ‘no’ from different women. Males are telling the LGB community that same-sex attraction is bigoted, they are refusing to hear the ‘no’ in response. To ignore one ‘no’ is a red flag, to ignore many is a siren and the idea that it takes more than one ‘no’ to understand is manipulation.

Jessica Orwig has reported on this in a business/criminal setting that ‘declining to hear ‘no’ is a signal that someone is either seeking control or refusing to relinquish it,’ De Becker writes later adding that, ‘If you let someone talk you out of the word ‘no’, you might as well wear a sign that reads, ‘You are in charge.”2 This is something we are witnessing amongst women and lesbians and homosexuals, they are allowing trans-identified males to talk them out of ‘no’, to talk them round. No is a complete sentence, say it firmly.

The Sexual Harassment and Prevention in College advice developed by the consultant to the Peace Corps, Nancy Newport, in an attempt to keep young female students studying abroad safe from male violence, is worth considering on both an individual level and movement wide. She outlines that ‘we all want to be culturally sensitive, to get along, to be respectful, to fit in, to not offend’ but ‘it is very important that the cultural sensitivity training provided never requires that you submit to behaviours that invade your personal boundaries and that feel unsafe or even uncomfortable to you’.3 This should be applied to relaxing boundaries and softening our analysis or speech to be sensitive to male wants, to be culturally sensitive to the transgenderist/transsexual. Newport was clear that ‘if it feels inappropriate or makes you uneasy, get yourself out of the situation. Never sacrifice yourself or your sense of safety for the sake of cultural sensitivity’.

With regards to personal boundaries, she described how these are not just physical but also emotional, and I would argue, philosophical. These boundaries work ‘to preserve our physical and emotional integrity’ and when someone violates them or ‘gets “too close”, an alarm sounds inside. We need to listen for, respect, and respond to that alarm’.5 I am hearing alarm bells with males in feminism and feminist analysis, with those inside the LGB who deny the reality of same-sex attraction. Newport finishes with De Becker’s framework of the seven ways that predators manipulate people. The tactics are:
  1. Forced teaming: intentional and directed manipulation to establish premature trust, example: “we’re in this together”.
  2. Charm and niceness: manipulative, deceptive, for self-gain.
  3. Too many details: a tactic used when people are lying.
  4. Typecasting: a slight insult designed to manipulate a woman to feel compelled to prove its inaccuracy.
  5. Loan sharking: unsolicited giving designed to create a feeling of indebtedness.
  6. The unsolicited promise: false promises.
  7. Discounting the word “no”: when someone refuses to accept “no” for an answer.6
We should all keep these tactics in mind and listen to our intuition.
 
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Atelier3

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@SKL do you ever think about writing up your views for publication? Do you know Quillette, the journal for Heterodox thought? I think you’d love it.
 

SKL

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@SKL do you ever think about writing up your views for publication? Do you know Quillette, the journal for Heterodox thought? I think you’d love it.
Yeah I'm familiar with Quillette. They have put out a lot of good stuff on the trans issue but have a lot of cool perspectives in general.

After your first kind words that my thoughts on the question might be publishable I did think of collating editing and adding some references to what I wrote here. Quillette might be a good avenue for that if I can do so without doxing myself. Not only would I not want to connect my words to my Bluelight profile but the TRAs like to dox people too and having unorthodox opinions on these issues is increasingly something that can get you into trouble professionally (something I've given no small amount of thought to as it will no doubt come up when I return to work.)
 

HatingThisLife

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I disagree.



"The" reality?

I don't think it is transphobic to say that Elliot Page is a woman. Using slurs is transphobic, but it gets complicated when you are forcing people to believe something they don't believe in order to not be a bigot.



I don't think it's helpful to reinforce people's delusions in order to not offend them. That is not my style. I like to say it how it is... I would use male pronouns, I guess. There's no anger. It's just a little frustrating that I'm being forced to contribute to someone's mental illness. It's comes more from a selfish place though, honestly. I don't want someone to dictate what I can and can't say.

There is a HUGE difference between saying something racist to a Black person and refusing to use male pronouns when talking to someone that looks and sounds like (and is) a woman.



Here's this objective reality again.

v

The transgender movement is the most frightening aspect of far-left PC culture dictating what people are allowed to say and do.

At the end of the day, nobody (aside from a select few) actually think trans women are women. A lot of the people on the pro-trans side of the argument - which is the clear minority - believe that trans women are not women, but trans women... but, we're supposed to treat them like they're women?

I don't think it's helpful to people to lie to them.
Its not a mental illness and that statement in itself. There i plenty of science and you may choose not ton read it Nd educate yourself about it but in chosing not to, you do come off as a u educated, ignorant bigot. I use to think just like you until i educated myself and my views chaged.

All of your comments are rude, hurtful and disgusting
 

Mr. Krinkle

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Its not a mental illness and that statement in itself. There i plenty of science and you may choose not ton read it Nd educate yourself about it but in chosing not to, you do come off as a u educated, ignorant bigot. I use to think just like you until i educated myself and my views chaged.

All of your comments are rude, hurtful and disgusting

Yea that was his lame response to me but im not wasting my time with somebody who can't see beyond his own nose

he should go back to playing horse shoes out in the yard with Bart and Darla
 

SKL

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you may choose not ton read it Nd educate yourself about it but in chosing not to, you do come off as a u educated, ignorant bigot.
im not wasting my time
No offense to birdup but reply to one of my posts from earlier then. I dare you to call me uneducated on these matters. This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate.
 

Mr. Krinkle

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No offense to birdup but reply to one of my posts from earlier then. I dare you to call me uneducated on these matters. This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate.

you talking to me? i don't read your posts, they're too long
 

birdup.snaildown

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SKL said:
This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate.

This is exactly what is wrong with this and many other topics these days. Instead of having a civil discussion, people just call each other names.
 

SKL

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you talking to me? i don't read your posts, they're too long
Was replying to both you and @HatingThisLife. As for not reading long posts, lol. It's occurred to me to maybe synthesize them into bullet points or something, but going after only the low hanging fruit shows your level of willingness to actually have a discussion about this issue. It's actually an extremely complicated issue. Just saying "TWAW" and leaving it at that does everyone involved a disservice and is a good example of a thought-terminating cliché.
he should go back to playing horse shoes out in the yard with Bart and Darla
And this is an extremely bigoted comment.
 

Mr. Krinkle

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well do you guys really need to write a whole novel on the fact that you're too inconsiderate to call the transgendered by what they preferred to be called?
 
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