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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

SKL

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@SKL i had not read that far back and have now read your post.

i have not looked in depth into the science- i checked the first couple of links on google regarding the transgender brain and none of them even contain the word 'homosexual' so in my about-to-go-to-bed state i can't assess the accuracy what you say. i would appreciate a reference.
When studied the difference in "brain sex" of the homosexual and trans-identified natal individuals has been at best a matter of degree, and a few neurological correlates of trans-identifion have been found which do not relate to "brain sex" (which is not entirely cut and dry to begin with), for instance see Structural connections in the brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation (which studies all four combinations of sex and sexual orientation)—

After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.

When they are found the differences (structural and functional) between trans-identified and non-trans-identifying males are similar to the differences between heterosexual and homosexual males. The latter difference is more pronounced in effeminate/gender non-conforming (GNC) homosexual men. This rather calls into question the concept of an essentialistically cross-sex brain that causes trans-identification.

On "brain sex" in homosexuals see, among many other studies, Male sexual orientation, gender nonconformity, and neural activity during mental rotations: an fMRI study and Sexual Orientation-Related Differences in Virtual Spatial Navigation and Spatial Search Strategies. The variables being studied here are the same as those being found "female" in trans-identified males.

This article specifically fails to find "feminine" differences in gynephilic TiMs.

Studies on natal females, gynephilic and especially androphilic, as I have mentioned are much fewer. The first study I cited did include them though.
in the case where you state there has been no research i hope you would agree that means we can draw no conclusions.
Well, to some extent. I do not claim that androphilic trans-identified females don't have masculinized brains, but in this whole conversation the burden of extraordinary proof most definitely lies on those who make extraordinary claims. This is not a case of my claiming that the cat meowing in the dark is black; this is a case of my saying that it is probably not a dog. One could say that "the jury is still out on that" but one assumption is definitely safer to make than the other.
apart from you claiming they are problematic i didn't see any evidence or argument in the post you linked to.
Evidence that trans stuff is problematic? (First off, the one post is one of many.) But the most glaring example of harm is the high % of people, especially those who transition young and especially natal females, who later regret their choices and "detransition." The numbers are very high. A significant portion, in fact an increasing portion, of who undertake cross-sex medical interventions (hormones and surgery) regret it. These changes are permanent. Especially for natal females (testosterone in females causes changes which are more permanent than estrogen in males, a higher % of TiFs undergo surgery, to wit, double mastectomy.) Something other than a stable and essential "gender identity" is going on, and it is dangerous. Furthrrmore, the number of trans-identifying young people, and again especially natal females, has increased dramatically, as have the ratios of female to male. For various reasons I covered above, I don't see this as attributable to a situation where social acceptance leads people to "embrace their true selves," but rather what in sociology is called "social contagion," a phenomenon familiar in the study of eating disorders, which, btw, are highly disproportionately found in TiFs, along with histories of trauma, personality disorders, and perhaps most of all, autism spectrum disorders. It would be wise to look for an etiology of gender dysphoria in places other than a theoreotical intrinsic "identity."

i don't know where you are from but in the UK transitioning takes years, its not possble to do on a whim. you have to live as your identified gender for a year before you can even start getting any medical treatment and even after that it is a slow process. i can see there being issues in countries that allow people to rush the process- i'd guess a profit-driven healthcare service like the US is more likely to perform gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy hastily and in that case certainly agree that is problematic.
Some places in the UK (Tavistock) were going whole hog with excessive and under-screened medical intervention with the young and old. Commendably, NHS recently made this harder to do. You are almost certainly right that profit motives influence the "informed consent" (i.e. cash and carry) approach to "transgender medicine" here in the US. Incidentally, speaking of profit motives, the pharmaceutical industry heavily funds some of the most prominent trans activist organizations, no doubt seeing recent trends as a way to market various (some previously pretty niche) medications.

The issue here might be that language is fluid and, as semioticians have been telling us for years, there is no necessary connection between a word (a sign) and what it signifies. It may well be that the pace of change in language relating to trans people is too fast for your liking [...]

What is happening is that the etymology of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ is in a state of flux and there is no longer or not yet any word (besides the clunky cis-man and cis-woman) that matches the concept of man and woman in your head. The semantic content of ‘man’ has expanded to include certain persons who have, or had, vaginas and XX chromosomes. That genie is never going back in the bottle. However, I find it easy to accept that the meaning of man has changed without accepting that transwomen/‘cis-women’ or transmen/‘ cis-men’ are ontologically identical.

What frustrates me is that I don’t have a better word than cis-x to describe my concept for what formerly meant ‘men’ and ‘women’ to me. But I speak other languages so I have experience in seeing that mental concepts do not correlate to specific words in a conclusive way.
"Male" and "female" are used sometimes to refer to natal sex. I agree that it helps to have other languages (to go Classical for a moment, maybe one could speak of a TiM presenting as a mulier, but certainly never a femina. Perhaps the same goes for TiFs, mas, and vir.) I greatly dislike the "cis" expression, a technical sounding neologism like that doesn't feel right when used to describe the normal baseline condition. I also dislike (but understand that this particular ship has sailed in general discourse) "transman/transwoman." It just doesn't work very well etymologically. "Trans-identified female/male" seems to me like less an abuse of the language, more precise and, of course, as you noted a few pages ago, it doesn't make any ontological claims (either way—while it is more used by critics of transgenderism, as a technical term, it feels the most neutral to me.)

I think you are on dangerous ground with the mental illness argument. Normal/abnormal or normal/deviant are socially constructed categories
While this is true, I wouldn't go full Szaszian on the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It is a real phenomenon with real clinical manifestations which cause the patient distress. We treat it as an indicator of an intrinsic "identity" at our (and more importantly, our patients') great peril. Transitioning is being sold to people as a cure-all for various kinds of existential angst and anomie, which in turn are being presented as vague indicia of a mismatched "gender identity." This is obviously a load of nonsense: cross-sex medical intervention just doesn't help trans-identified people very much in terms of mental health outcomes, including suicide risk, which is often used as a way to try to make the availability of such interventions "a matter of life and death," which is essentially the same as the perennial cry of the Borderline PD patient, "keep things inside my narrow comfort zone or I will harm myself."

[...] You cannot, call a person suffering from bi-polar disorder ‘insane’ in the workplace if they become manic any longer. But you don’t seem as animated about these kinds of language changes?
"Insane" was never a clinical term. It's a legal one with very specific meanings. "Mentally ill," however, is moving into "person with such-and-such syndrome" type language. A lot of this has to do with the successes that are seen with modern meds in many cases. In the cases that fail, though, and these are ones that people in the field often would prefer not to discuss, political correctness has made far fewer inroads (I'm talking your street schizophrenics and perennially hospitalized people on disability living on societal margins.)

Also, in the treatment of a psychosis my understanding is that Psychiatrists do not immediately confront or attack the delusion. They invest quite a lot of time understanding the delusion
"Investimg quite a lot of time understanding the delusion" hasn't been a part of mainstream psychiatry for a long time. We don't spend much time working through delusion, we just medicate underlying psychosis. Some of this is due to financial (length-of-stay) constrain and some due to the fact that modern medications work and addressing delusions as such doesn't really help the vast majority of patients. But you are right. Attacking delusional beliefs head-on is at best something to be done with caution, if at all. The paranoid should be assured he is safe, for instance, but in general and non-argumentative terms.

A large problem in contemporary psychiatry is an inability, for legal and social reasons, to exercise paternalistic authority overpatients. It's not very PC, but "patients' rights" have rapidly overtaken clinical necessity and left it far, far back in the dust. The same is seen in transgender care, where any sort of screening, even for serious psychiatric issues, is seen as "gatekeeping" and "informed consent" as the sole prerequisite for treatment, is the order of the day in the US.
 
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SKL

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Despite the well-documented mental and physical health benefits associated with transitioning, transgender individuals do face several unique challenges in their daily lives. They experience increased rates of societal discrimination and sexual violence and are at increased risk for depression, substance abuse, and attempted suicide
The "benefits" of transitioning are nothing approaching "well-documented." This is a common assertion, but you have to cherry pick your studies to get there.

As for comorbidities, it is unreasonable to attribute them entirely to social factors. The etiology of GD is unknown but it is apparent that it is more prevalent in certain populations, e.g. individuals with (inter alia) autistic-spectrum, personality, and eating disorders, as well as trauma and other kinds of body-image problems.
 

cduggles

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I was born intersex, and have lived as both genders at different times in my life.
Thank you for posting and sharing.
Since you stated you don’t mind answering questions, I’m curious as to what differences you found in living as each gender, or was it that different?
Did you feel pressured to choose one gender over the other by anyone?
 

SKL

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I would be more than glad to discuss any of these issues with you, or if you have any questions you would like to ask about it, I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.
I am likewise happy to see you posting here and hope you feel welcome. Like @cduggles, since you indicated you're willing to ask questions, I'd also like to take you up on that. Please don't answer if they feel intrusive.

Transgender activists often point to intersex conditions in constructing their arguments against a strictly biological interpretation of gender.

1. Do you identify or feel fellowship with persons who are not medically speaking intersex but nonetheless identify with the opposite of their natal sex or with no gender at all? What do you think about adding "I" to "LGBTQ," as some do?
2. How do you feel about intersex conditions being used as a point of argument in controversies about transgender identity? Does the existence of intersex conditions really suggest that "gender is not a binary" in cases other than specifically diagnosed intersex persons? (I made the argument repeatedly above that intersex situations are sufficiently sui generis as to not really be relevant to the transgender debate.)
3. "Intersex conditions" is, as I am sure you know, an incredibly diverse category (and one which is rather outside my area of expertise. I began writing this question making reference to specific conditions and was quickly reminded that I am out of my depth here.) Do you think it is still a useful category (I assume you think so as you used it), or would is it useful to be more specific—although I can imagine this might feel overly invasive in some situations?
 
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ThePlantofJOY

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Thank you for posting and sharing.
Since you stated you don’t mind answering questions, I’m curious as to what differences you found in living as each gender, or was it that different?
Did you feel pressured to choose one gender over the other by anyone?
I lived as a woman for quite a while, but then my testosterone started to increase. This caused me to start growing some patches of hair on my face, and deepened my voice. I could still sound like I did, but it required me to focus on it. As time went on I just did not feel like I presented as female. The most difficult part was I have always dated women. One of the most difficult things I found were things like flirting, it was SOOOOO different as a male than as a female. It was very frustrating especially in the beginning. Not to mention that most of the woman I was interested in were much less interested in me. Also the way men would treat me was very different. In many ways it seemed I got more "respect" and would react very different to me. Such as if I was with a female friend men would speak to me first most of the time. I remember going into a pawn shop because my friend wanted to get a gun. Even though I was not buying it the salesman was nearly totally focused on me and directed most of what he said to me rather than my friend. There are certainly tons of examples of different things, over all I preferred living as a woman. I would say the other biggest difference is how I was treated with children. When I lived as a woman and would baby sit for a friend or picked up a friends kid at school I was barely given a second glance. However as a male I would at the very least get questioned and get some looks, once even had to have the parents call and verify me. Some of this happened at the same school so it was not that it was just due to policy. Also I would notice that after I was living as a male, in general people seemed to have a different reaction with anything to do with children. Having confrontations with men was also quite different, the first time a male got physically aggressive with me was a bit of a shock. I had to learn how to react to those situations and learned that things that I would say as a woman would have very different reactions and/or be taken a different way as a man. As I said before there are so many things LOL, I hope that helps answer the question, I dont mean to write so much on it, but want to completely cover the main things I can think of. It was not anything that I had to do, it just sort of seemed like the right thing to do. I personally never thought the people who obviously present as male and demand others refer to them as female does not do anyone any good. I have more or less learned its almost a subconscious thing, not that people dont try to accommodate people or that people wont do it if and when someone points it out. I just have always felt that in the end its easier to live (at least in a public way) as the gender that the majority of people see when they see me. For awhile I would spend time trying to stay female, but the longer that went on the harder that became and it simply was getting to be more trouble than it was worth, and in many cases not doing any good. At the end of the day the people who know me dont treat me any different, and I am comfortable with who I am, so I felt that there was no purpose in putting in a lot of effort into doing something so people I did not know saw me as a certain gender. A lot has changed in the last few years as well. I might have had different experiences if it had happened today. When I was going thru it very few people had heard about gender issues, being gay had just gotten more mainstream, and some people were aware of transgendered people. However intersex was not something that was really discussed or well known. I hope that covers your question, and hope I did not overwhelm with all I said. If I can clarify anything, or if you have any other questions feel free to let me know and I will do my best to do so! :) Hope you are having a good day, and look forward to hearing back from you :)
 

cduggles

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I hope that helps answer the question, I dont mean to write so much on it, but want to completely cover the main things I can think of.
You could write a book of words and I would read it! 🙂 I think everyone wonders what it would really be like to live as another gender and you’ve done it. Very fascinating points.
At the end of the day the people who know me dont treat me any different, and I am comfortable with who I am
That’s what important and I’m happy you’ve had that experience.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@ThePlantofJOY

Thanks for posting. Your perspective is interesting, but (at the end of the day) I'm not sure what it has to do with transgenderism. I try to separate intersex from discussions about trans issues, because I don't see how they're related.
 

ThePlantofJOY

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I am likewise happy to see you posting here and hope you feel welcome. Like @cduggles, since you indicated you're willing to ask questions, I'd also like to take you up on that. Please don't answer if they feel intrusive.

Transgender activists often point to intersex conditions in constructing their arguments against a strictly biological interpretation of gender.

1. Do you identify or feel fellowship with persons who are not medically speaking intersex but nonetheless identify with the opposite of their natal sex or with no gen der at all? What do you think about adding "I" to "LGBTQ," as some do?
2. How do you feel about intersex conditions being used as a point of argument in controversies about transgender identity? Does the existence of intersex conditions really suggest that "gender is not a binary" in cases other than specifically diagnosed intersex persons? (I made the argument repeatedly above that intersex situations are sufficiently sui generis as to not really be relevant to the transgender debate.)
3. "Intersex conditions" is, as I am sure you know, an incredibly diverse category (and one which is rather outside my area of expertise. I began writing this question making reference to specific conditions and was quickly reminded that I am out of my depth here.) Do you think it is still a useful category (I assume you think so as you used it), or would is it useful to be more specific—although I can imagine this might feel overly invasive in some situations?
Always glad to answer questions people have, I know that people are curious about these things, and so often I see people who talk for me and dont agree with much of what they say, so I feel its important to be as open and speak for myself as often as possible. :)

1. I have identified as a lesbian for most of my life, so I have generally had some affinity with the community. However I am torn about its inclusion, while I think it is good to have a community and that there is some crossover and could be beneficial. I think that because intersex is a medical condition much more than any of the other groups it could cause negative consequences for people who are intersex and the lgbt community. At the end of the day I think its important for the individual person to make that decision. I know for certain intersex people having that community to connect with is vital to there mental health and there social life. For others they are Vehemently against it, and feel used as a justification for others to behave or do things. I am somewhat in the middle, I believe in personal responsibility and dont like it when I hear people blame being, "X" as to why there having issues in there life. Yet they do nothing to improve there life in any other way.
2. I dont feel that intersex individuals should be used as "proof" of there being more than 2 genders. We make up way to small of a percentage. I do believe that whatever gender you are has any bearing on what you can do or what interests you might have. I simply see it as, a thing, no different than if you have green or brown eyes. I think its important to have it for certain things, just like its important to know what hair and eye color you have. I feel its important that people understand that they dont have to be a certain way because they are one gender or the other. However there are things that are medically relevant when it comes to being male or female, and that by adding all this superfluous things onto gender certain people are less likely to have things that are important for them medically, simply because they are so determined for a certain box to be checked. At the end of the day, regardless what people want to call themselves or how they want to live, its still what it is. In a lot of cases I feel like many of those people only harm themselves by insisting something is a certain way, regardless of it being that way or not.
3. Yes it covers a lot of different conditions, I have both issues with chromosomes and some physical differences. When I was born my female parts were essentially "sewn up", and covered by my "scrotum". Visually I look a bit different down there but not overly so, however its possible to feel those female parts, and can be stimulated sexually. (just for the record female orgasms are way better). Hope that answers your questions. Feel free to ask anything else you might want to know, or if I can clarify anything just let me know :) Hope you have a great day, and look forward to talking further!! :)
 

ThePlantofJOY

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@ThePlantofJOY

Thanks for posting. Your perspective is interesting, but (at the end of the day) I'm not sure what it has to do with transgenderism. I try to separate intersex from discussions about trans issues, because I don't see how they're related.
Well I responded to someone about there experience with transgender issues, then I was asked a few questions. I was not just offering my opinion unsolicited. I never said that it had anything to do with being transgendered.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@ThePlantofJOY

Intersex conditions are often cited in discussions about transgenderism. I didn't mean to suggest that you were blurring the lines between the two. On the contrary, you've done the opposite. I value your contributions to this thread, I'm just saying I regard them to be different things. Like you said, one of them is a medical condition. I'm not sure what the other one is.

As far as I'm concerned there are three sexes: male, female and intersex. It's interesting to hear about intersex people changing the gender they identify as, but that isn't the same as a male changing gender.

I wonder if many people who are intersex choose not to identify in one way or the other?

Is identification necessary?
 

ThePlantofJOY

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@ThePlantofJOY

Intersex conditions are often cited in discussions about transgenderism. I didn't mean to suggest that you were blurring the lines between the two. On the contrary, you've done the opposite. I value your contributions to this thread, I'm just saying I regard them to be different things. Like you said, one of them is a medical condition. I'm not sure what the other one is.

As far as I'm concerned there are three sexes: male, female and intersex. It's interesting to hear about intersex people changing the gender they identify as, but that isn't the same as a male changing gender.

I wonder if many people who are intersex choose not to identify in one way or the other?

Is identification necessary?
I dont think it is, most of the people I know dont see me as male or female and it has not been much of a problem. I do think people should be aware of what things could effect them medically. I.E people with prostates having the chance of prostate cancer, etc. However I think people should just live there life, I meet so many people who spend so much time and effort trying to get other people to accept them as one gender or the other, and it does not make much sense to me. People are going to see what they see, the sooner people realize they have little say in that, the better off they will be. Personally I dont care if someone calls me miss or mr. or bitch or asshole. I have way more important things in my life to worry about than what other people think. Its important to have a sense of self and a group of family/friends that support you, but outside of that I think people would be WAY better served and be healthier in general if they just ignored the people rather than attempt to get them to change there mind.
 

birdup.snaildown

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ThePlantofJOY said:
I think people would be WAY better served and be healthier in general if they just ignored the people rather than attempt to get them to change there mind.

Agreed.

The strange thing is: most of the trans people I've spoken to don't want me to change my mind. They just want me - and everyone else - to pretend.

Ideally (from a mental health perspective) you shouldn't need people to pretend. It isn't healthy psychologically to tell people what they want to hear.

I would rather hear the truth.
 

ThePlantofJOY

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Agreed.

The strange thing is: most of the trans people I've spoken to don't want me to change my mind. They just want me - and everyone else - to pretend.

Ideally (from a mental health perspective) you shouldn't need people to pretend. It isn't healthy psychologically to tell people what they want to hear.

I would rather hear the truth.
Ya, that is really the problem. If your not willing to play along they go ballistic and call you every name in the book. Its sad really, part of the issue is they need others to reinforce it because deep down they know its not true and the more they lie to themselves the angrier they get. This then spills over to being angry at others, and allows them to blame how they feel on other people rather than focus on accepting reality.
 

SKL

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The strange thing is: most of the trans people I've spoken to don't want me to change my mind. They just want me - and everyone else - to pretend.
Ya, that is really the problem. If your not willing to play along they go ballistic and call you every name in the book. Its sad really, part of the issue is they need others to reinforce it because deep down they know its not true and the more they lie to themselves the angrier they get. This then spills over to being angry at others, and allows them to blame how they feel on other people rather than focus on accepting reality.

To indulge in some speculation: not that strange a thing if you look at this through the lens of autogynephilia, which is by it's nature a fethistic psychosexual issue rather than at it's core an identity disturbance (which it becomes, albeit secondarily.) Many sexual fetishes involve an element of "play" or even psychodrama. Now, this does not cover all trans-identified people, not even all trans-identified males. But AGP are often the loudest voices in trans circles (something something male socialization.) As for TiFs, "autoandrophilia" is mainly a subject of speculation. To venture even further into the realm of speculation, people with both personality issues and trauma issues have tendencies towards enacting what might be termed psychodramas for themselves (observe not only clinical presentations but, say, the BDSM community) and those issues are highly prevalent among TiFs (and possibly ROGD-type TiMs, about whom not enough is known either), AAP or no AAP. For the case of the more "traditional," "cis-homosexual" trans-identified persons (see what I mean about terminology in this field being confusing?), one can imagine a role for psychodrama given the putative etiologies (from a Blanchardian perspective) of these forms of identification as well. Again, most of what I've said in this post is spitballing and while I consider myself well-read on these matters and good in my own scope of practice I am not educated or trained as a psychologist, much less a psychodynamically oriented one, which would be the preferable type of clinical (or research) background with which to delve deeply into this stuff.
 
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Atelier3

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To indulge in some speculation: not that strange a thing if you look at this through the lens of autogynephilia, which is by it's nature a fethistic psychosexual issue rather than at it's core an identity disturbance (which it becomes, albeit secondarily.) Many sexual fetishes involve an element of "play" or even psychodrama. Now, this does not cover all trans-identified people, not even all trans-identified males. But AGP are often the loudest voices in trans circles (something something male socialization.) As for TiFs, "autoandrophilia" is mainly a subject of speculation. To venture even further into the realm of speculation, people with both personality issues and trauma issues have tendencies towards enacting what might be termed psychodramas for themselves (observe the BDSM community) and those issues are highly prevalent among TiFs (and possibly ROGD-type TiMs, about whom not enough is known either), AAP or no AAP. For the case of the more "traditional," "cis-homosexual" trans-identified persons (see what I mean about terminology in this field being confusing?), one can imagine a role for psychodrama given the putative etiologies (from a Blanchardian perspective) of these forms of identification as well. Again, most of what I've said in this post is spitballing and while I consider myself well-read on these matters and good in my own scope of practice I am not educated or trained as a psychologist, much less a psychodynamically oriented one, which would be the preferable type of clinical (or research) background with which to delve deeply into this stuff.

Spitballing maybe, but it syncs with Judith Butler’s view that gender is performative. And a whole bunch of stuff by Goffman on performativity and stigma. I like the idea that for AGP type trans individuals ‘all the world’s a stage and we are merely players’ in some gigantic therapeutic endeavour assembled for their benefit. It’s worth more thought.
 
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Xorkoth

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If you are clinically female in every way, it is delusional to perceive yourself as male. They used to call it gender dysphoria and it was listed in the DSM-5.

That's not a very good argument. Homosexuality used to be n the DSM-IV too. Women used to be sent to sanitoriums for hysteria when their period hormones made them too intense. The state of mental health diagnosis in the past was absolutely barbaric in many instances.

I lived as a woman for quite a while, but then my testosterone started to increase. This caused me to start growing some patches of hair on my face, and deepened my voice. I could still sound like I did, but it required me to focus on it. As time went on I just did not feel like I presented as female. The most difficult part was I have always dated women. One of the most difficult things I found were things like flirting, it was SOOOOO different as a male than as a female. It was very frustrating especially in the beginning. Not to mention that most of the woman I was interested in were much less interested in me. Also the way men would treat me was very different. In many ways it seemed I got more "respect" and would react very different to me. Such as if I was with a female friend men would speak to me first most of the time. I remember going into a pawn shop because my friend wanted to get a gun. Even though I was not buying it the salesman was nearly totally focused on me and directed most of what he said to me rather than my friend. There are certainly tons of examples of different things, over all I preferred living as a woman. I would say the other biggest difference is how I was treated with children. When I lived as a woman and would baby sit for a friend or picked up a friends kid at school I was barely given a second glance. However as a male I would at the very least get questioned and get some looks, once even had to have the parents call and verify me. Some of this happened at the same school so it was not that it was just due to policy. Also I would notice that after I was living as a male, in general people seemed to have a different reaction with anything to do with children. Having confrontations with men was also quite different, the first time a male got physically aggressive with me was a bit of a shock. I had to learn how to react to those situations and learned that things that I would say as a woman would have very different reactions and/or be taken a different way as a man. As I said before there are so many things LOL, I hope that helps answer the question, I dont mean to write so much on it, but want to completely cover the main things I can think of. It was not anything that I had to do, it just sort of seemed like the right thing to do. I personally never thought the people who obviously present as male and demand others refer to them as female does not do anyone any good. I have more or less learned its almost a subconscious thing, not that people dont try to accommodate people or that people wont do it if and when someone points it out. I just have always felt that in the end its easier to live (at least in a public way) as the gender that the majority of people see when they see me. For awhile I would spend time trying to stay female, but the longer that went on the harder that became and it simply was getting to be more trouble than it was worth, and in many cases not doing any good. At the end of the day the people who know me dont treat me any different, and I am comfortable with who I am, so I felt that there was no purpose in putting in a lot of effort into doing something so people I did not know saw me as a certain gender. A lot has changed in the last few years as well. I might have had different experiences if it had happened today. When I was going thru it very few people had heard about gender issues, being gay had just gotten more mainstream, and some people were aware of transgendered people. However intersex was not something that was really discussed or well known. I hope that covers your question, and hope I did not overwhelm with all I said. If I can clarify anything, or if you have any other questions feel free to let me know and I will do my best to do so! :) Hope you are having a good day, and look forward to hearing back from you :)

Fascinating, thanks for sharing your experience. :)
 

mal3volent

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Agreed.

The strange thing is: most of the trans people I've spoken to don't want me to change my mind. They just want me - and everyone else - to pretend.

Ideally (from a mental health perspective) you shouldn't need people to pretend. It isn't healthy psychologically to tell people what they want to hear.

I would rather hear the truth.

I honestly don't know that you are a male. The only thing I know is that you identify as a man. We all do you the courtesy of using your preferred pronouns. I imagine you wouldn't like being misgendered as female, would you?
 

birdup.snaildown

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mal3volent said:
I imagine you wouldn't like being misgendered as female, would you?

I couldn't care in the slightest.

Please go ahead and use the incorrect pronouns.

I honestly don't care at all.

Xorkoth said:
That's not a very good argument.

It wasn't intended to be an argument. I was just pointing it out.

I do, however, think there's a big difference between saying gay people are delusional and saying trans people are delusional.
 
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