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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

birdup.snaildown

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Look, mate, I honestly have no idea what that means.
There is no "strategy".

I don't want to have a discussion with you.
Can we move on please?

For the record, my thanks was not sarcastic.
It was (misguidedly) optimistic.
 

deficiT

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I feel like when I was a kid nobody EVER discussed gender identity. If it was ever brought up it was some bad joke about a g,uy not knowing the hooker was a man.

These days teens seem obsessed with gender identity. My cousin is a trans man. I saw him grow up and he lived in a broken home. His only friend was this gay kid, who even at 11 or 12 was already identifying as gay. That always confused me how you could know that young. Anyways I always question in he questioned his identity because of his friends influence.

Now I remember being about 13 and questioning if I was gay or not. It took a day or two to confirm that I was not and never thought about it again. Being a teen is confusing with so much coming at you.
It may seem like it's a different world these days, but trans people have been around forever. It's just slightly more acceptable to be open about it these days, and it's talked about in politics and media more than it was in years past. Partly that's because trans people especially face harsh discrimination and hatred, having way higher likelihood to die from murder or suicide. The individual needs of trans people are now clashing with the feelings of moral authoritarians that believe being trans is wrong. Bathroom bills and the like are highly propagandized and slanted to make it seem like trans people are predators. Which statistically is false, as trans people are more likely to be victims of sexual assault.

As a kid, you knew that you were male at a young age right? Well I imagine it might be the same for some trans people. They might get gender dysphoria at a young age, and not even know what it is. Or they could know right away that they identify as the different sex. I think it's a difficult question about how to handle a trans kid. It's a bit of an exaggeration that parents are "shoving" stuff on anyone, they are likely trying to do the best to raise their kid and do the right thing by them. I don't think you have an unreasonable take, just maybe consider the points I made. They might have already been made, I haven't read the whole thread, but anyway...

I have had numerous close friends I grew up with come out as trans. I had no idea, but I'm glad that they are at least able to be true to what their mind and body tell them. And I wish that people weren't so misinformed and hateful about them.
 

mal3volent

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Look, mate, I honestly have no idea what that means.
There is no "strategy".

I don't want to have a discussion with you.
Can we move on please?

For the record, my thanks was not sarcastic.
It was (misguidedly) optimistic.

yo, did we have a minor disagreement or did I murder your entire family? I honestly can't tell based on your responses. This silent treatment you're giving me is really pressing my buttons.

but honestly I actually don't want to talk to you anymore, either. So we're good. Now maybe you can take some time to heal. 🙏
 
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Is there any trans BLers here? I’ve read this entire thread so far and couldn’t find any that went though transitioning or are currently transitioning/ thinking about transitioning here? I asked that question many pages ago and still haven’t got an answer?

If there are so many more people out there that are identifying as Trans now, for whatever reason (whether it be people feel more comfortable this day an age to come out, or because Trans is in vouge now, or is even, as some suggest, encouraged in some ultra liberal communities), are the only opinions I really give a shit about, and I figured we had a few here?

See this being Trans thing is completely foreign to me. I would like to hear their thoughts, because at the end of the day, they are the ones living that way. Other peoples assumptions of what being a Trans person is, is practically irrelevant. It’s the same reason I don’t want to hear about racial discrimination (unless you have experienced or currently experiencing racial discrimination).

It’s of no interest of mine to me hear woke people tell about a trans people and what it’s like to be part of that community.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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@🧙‍♂️

There certainly used to be quite a lot of trans people on this forum some years ago. I hope people expressing their unfiltered selves (as I often have) hasn't resulted in them feeling unwelcome to contribute to discussions such as these... I don't like having discussions about any group of people in the absence of said representation. But, it's such a sensitive topic. We're told to not express certain feelings about the trans community, so they end up living in a bubble to some extent. They are shielded from what some people think, in the name of political correctness.

It is always more upsetting to realize that you have been lied to than it is to face an uncomfortable truth.
 

cduggles

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Is there any trans BLers here? I’ve read this entire thread so far thourand couldn’t find any that went though transitioning or are currently transitioning/ thinking about transitioning. I asked that question many pages ago and still haven’t got an answer?

If there are so many free more people out there that are identifying as Trans now, for whatever reason (whether it be people feel more comfortable this day an age to come out, or because Trans is in vouge now, or is even, as some suggest, encouraged in some ultra liberal communities), are the only opinions I really give a shit about, and I figured we had a few here?

See this being Trans thing is completely foreign to me. I would hear their thoughts, because at the end of the day, they are the ones living that way. Other peoples assumptions of what being a Trans person is practically irrelevant. It’s the same reason I don’t want to hear about racial discrimination (unless you have experienced or currently experiencing racial discrimination).

It’s of no interest of mine to me hear woke people tell about a trans people and what it’s like to be part of that community.
We’ve had a couple of BLers openly identify themselves as transsexuals.
The one I’m aware who posted in CEP&S didn’t post more than a few times. It wasn’t pretty. I felt pretty embarrassed. It was awhile ago though.
 

PriestTheyCalledHim

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@PriestTheyCalledHim, you’ve brought up the issue of whether ‘queer’ is a negative slur or not. Like most derogatory words it depends when and where it is used (in Australia one may call one’s best friend a ‘cunt’ for example). To the best of my knowledge the word has been used in a derogatory sense to label homosexuals since the 1800’s. However, during the AIDS epidemic it was adopted or claimed or rehabilitated by a number of activist groups, most notably Queer Nation. To this day many people of varied non-cis sexuality proudly use the term to label themselves.

However, during the 1980’s and 1990’s a discipline of Queer Studies developed in Western Universities and ‘queer’ became more commonly used as a verb rather than a noun. There are thousands of academic papers ‘queering’ different aspects of society. These have primarily developed out of French post-modern/ structuralist thought of the late 1960s and 1970s. Although the full meaning of the term is unstable (as is every term deployed by postmodernists, since instability is their stock-in-trade) to queer something means to destabilise its normative foundations in society. That is, to question the foundations upon which it is commonly valued or disvalued.

The first thing to be queered, and still the ongoing target of Queer Studies, was the heteronormative family. This was attacked initially primarily on the basis of several streams of argument emerging from Michele Foucault’s ‘archaeology’ of human sexuality tied into Derrida’s attempts to destabilise the idea of ontological permanence in language and therefore our thoughts.

The interesting thing is how, in another example of how the left will always eat itself, transactivism works to fundamentally destabilise the categories of gay and lesbian. This is right out of the Queer Studies playbook.
Ok I learned about queer theory in a literary theory class or basically it was the short history of literary theory. It is fine for writing essays on literature, film, TV series, poetry, art, etc. But as far as society goes, it is too theoretical, super outdated, and it is not really relevant. Most people are not bisexual and people can be heterosexual or homosexual. I am bisexual but I have friends who are homosexual/gay and even the ones who once had girlfriends or wives said how they did it in their youth to hide that they are gay and how sex with women was little better than jerking off, they had to think about men the entire time to get aroused, finish, etc. and oftentimes would make up excuses when their woman partner wanted to have sex, some would fake orgasms, etc.

I am not sure if most modern day French people even read, discuss, or know who Foucault and Derrida are or care about their philosophies/theories, or about post-modern structuralist philosophies? French philosophers and writers who are much more recent and who were more popular than them are no longer read or discussed, or popular.
 
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deficiT

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Is there any trans BLers here? I’ve read this entire thread so far and couldn’t find any that went though transitioning or are currently transitioning/ thinking about transitioning here? I asked that question many pages ago and still haven’t got an answer?
I imagine there are, and I certainly don't want to speak over or for anyone. I can imagine it's difficult having conversations when people doubt your right to exist how you'd like. Not saying that's you or anything. Just contributing what little I know about it from knowing trans people.
They are shielded from what some people think, in the name of political correctness
I don't really think they are though. People say all kind of nasty and dehumanizing things about them. They can't escape that no matter where they go, even if some people try to defend them.
 

Perforated

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I am not sure if most modern day French people even read, discuss, or know who Foucault and Derrida are or care about their philosophies/theories, or about post-modern structuralist philosophies? French philosophers and writers who are much more recent and who were more popular than them are no longer read or discussed, or popular.
You have a point. Foucault and Derrida - together with the rest of the French postmodernists were always more popular in the Anglophone world (where they were only ever used in some times faulty translations) than they were in the Francophone world.
 

PriestTheyCalledHim

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You have a point. Foucault and Derrida - together with the rest of the French postmodernists were always more popular in the Anglophone world (where they were only ever used in some times faulty translations) than they were in the Francophone world.
I have noticed English translation of French writing or literature is not always correct even by supposed experts or native English speakers who studied French, and lived in France for over a decade.

I was reading a semi-popular French novel from the early/mid-1990s and the English translation was not accurate. The translator was using super old American and British slang from the very late 1960s and early 1970s that nobody says or uses anymore.
 

Ganjcat

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Interesting study has shown that [men and women have physically different brains] transgender people actually have the physical brain of the gender the identify as. From example a trans woman will often have a physically female brain.
This is also true, to a lesser extent, for homosexuals.
I can post a link if anyone is interested?
I must admit that is interesting and quite telling I am a bit old fashioned and prejudice about these things in modern society also political correctness is another I'm prejudice with but I can admit it
 

Ganjcat

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If you'd like to see the intersection of sexism, racism, and a guest appearance by transphobia (bc this doesn't even have a trans person in it), look no farther than the case of Caster Semenya.
Semenya is a Gold Medal Olympian whose naturally occurring testosterone is higher than the International Association of Athletics Federations allows. Rather than, say, "you were created in a way that is perfect and beautiful and were blessed with chemicals that may or may not improve your athletic ability", they said "take these pills bc we must bring you, a black woman, down".
This is racist because can we please stop having a governing body led by white men criticize black people's bodies?
This is sexist because can we please stop trying to police women's bodies?
This is transphobic because not only is the idea that any sort deviation from some "standard set" of female qualities implies that you are less than a woman. It is also transphobic because Semenya was forced to under go a sex verification test in 2015.

^^ So that was her post right?

And my response was this .. “Isn't Caster Semenya a man though? Or was a man? Caster Semenya is trans right? And if that is the case let's be honest.. they are not being sexist or racist. But men naturally have higher testosterone than women and this is why when you introduce trans people and gay people.. problems occur. But of course we have to try to accommodate to everyone. And I know people will hate me for saying this but I have no hate but come on now. This is a man competing against women.. the fact that he's a man and he's black means he is going to smoke their ass and come out victorious every time.. so they should accept it knowing fully what's going on.. lol people always stirring up shit just to get some drama going on in their lives”


Then she says “the only thing I have to say to your ignorant statement is intersex is not trans”


And another person responds “I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you meant by the "and he's black" but but let's get it in your own words”

What would you guys have said if you were me because I wasn't trying to offend anyone honestly! Could someone help me understand what I did that was wrong and how I would be able to word it next time so I don't offend anyone? Thank you! Just need some opinions on this and how you would respond that way I don't make the same mistake if I made any mistakes that is.
I don't mean to come across as aggressive after all this is the pc age but mate that shit just ain't on don't matter what period we are living in the only difference was 60 years ago you could get away with that shit but that doesn't make it right do you understand??? just because someone is a different colour to you doesn't that doesn't give you the right to abuse and bully them just because someone is a different race to you does not mean that person has less rights than you or doesn't deserve to be treated and spoken to like a human being just because someone is a different sex to you it does not mean they are going to get treated any better or 'get away with more'
 
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Ganjcat

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You have a point. Foucault and Derrida - together with the rest of the French postmodernists were always more popular in the Anglophone world (where they were only ever used in some times faulty translations) than they were in the Francophone world.
Omg I can't believe you fell for their racist propoganda I thought you were smarter than that Atelier 😑
 

SKL

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Rather than being some sort of liberal plot to destabilize society or whatever some people think it is,
I don't think it's that, per se, although @Atelier3 brings up some relevant antecedents in radical academia. I think the worst excesses of the transgender movement are an example of very confused thinking ("gender" certainly cannot be both essentialistic and a "social construct") with some roots in academia, but loosed upon the world and used in an attempt to describe very real human suffering, often with dubious results. It's not just a matter of radical praxis but of what might be called relatively informal society-traversing "memes" (in the original sense, not the casual Internet sense, but it just so happens that those are involved too.)
I think it's just growing pains and in some decades, or a generation, or two, it will just be normal and everyone will simply be who they are
But some people are being not-who-they-are by virtue of the same transgender movement, especially young people who are being swept in by broader social trends. See the astronomically high number of gender desisters and my above discussion of issues about them and ROGD generally.
and it won't be such a big deal one way or the other. At least I hope so.
Your view is perhaps overly optimistic. A lot of trends in the area of sexuality, both social (I'd mentioned pedophilia in intentional communities) as well as medical (electroconvulsive therapy for homosexuality?) are looked at with horror now. Since all of this stuff is so new, we have to exercise extreme caution, and not allow preconceived notions (such as that all persons presenting for "transition" are ontologically the opposite gender and thus require medical intervention) to interfere. .
My favorite facts are the uncomfortable ones. As long as they're actual literal facts and not just strongly held opinions. Living in the wrong body is not just a cliche. That's how I've heard it described over and over. It's existential terror and tragically the only escape some people see is death.
The uncomfortable fact here seems to be that trans-identification is not as clear cut as it seems: some broadly ontological "gender identity" and vaguely defined feeling of "being in the wrong body." These are gross oversimplifications that, while peddled as ideology by the trans movement (and that is what they are, they're of little clinical utility) ultimately they do not serve trans-identified individuals well as they are "thought-stoppers" that prevent actual discourse on important issues.

You seem markedly unwilling to engage in actually discussion other than to retreat to these ultimately platitudinous statements. The "wrong-body" stuff is not an objective fact, it is a common way of expressing a facet of lived experience. It is also not particularly uncomfortable as the idea of an essentialist "gender identity" and the necessity of "transition" is currently fashionable. The truth is that the diversity of trans identity experiences and presentations, when observed more closely, raise more questions than they give answers.
Interesting study has shown that [men and women have physically different brains] transgender people actually have the physical brain of the gender the identify as. From example a trans woman will often have a physically female brain.
This is also true, to a lesser extent, for homosexuals.
I can post a link if anyone is interested?
I must admit that is interesting and quite telling I am a bit old fashioned and prejudice about these things in modern society also political correctness is another I'm prejudice with but I can admit it
I talked about this issue in an earlier post, but I will reiterate and expand on it. Before I say anything, I'll point out that connecting the physical structure of the brain to experience and behavior is a very slippery thing, raising various questions of an essentially philosophical nature. That said:

There are a number of problems with the "brain sex" stuff, although it is an extremely tempting idea especially if one ascribes to the theory of an essentialistic "gender identity" and is looking for a place to locate it. However, firstly, the science surrounding the origin, nature, and even extent of sexual dimorphism in the brain itself is reasonably controversial. Research into transgender-identified brains is extremely interesting, though, and there have been a number of studies suggesting that they more resemble the identified sex than the natal sex. They are not without their problems. Right in @ChemicallyEnhanced's post is one of them: androphilic (i.e. homosexual) natal males have been shown to have "feminine" brains, particularly in their sexual responses; the same is the case with androphilic trans-identified natal males.

Even accepting that is more so in the latter (which is questionable), we are still looking at a continuum which seems just as linked with attraction to males than it is with trans-identification. Unsurprising as most research on the brains of trans-identified males has been done on what in Blanchard's typology is called HSTS, "homosexual-transsexuals." To reinforce this hypothesis, as for gynephilic trans-identified males, there has been extremely little research, but there have been in some of the studies shown to be distinct differences (neurological correlates of AGP?), but not evidence of a "female brain." One of the better studies here excluded people on feminizing hormones, which is of note too, as these studies are also typically done on people who have already undergone some efforts at transition including hormones, which may very well be contributory to neuroplastic changes.

As to trans-identified females, there has been even less research done, all of it to my knowledge done on gynephilic one. Evidence is much weaker here for their brains to be "masculine." Other research has shown that trans-identified people have brains that seem less "gendered" generally. Studies are ongoing on this subject generally, and suffer from some of the problems that all studies on this subject do: slippery definitions, politicization, and the great of finding representative populations and useful control groups.
It may seem like it's a different world these days, but trans people have been around forever. It's just slightly more acceptable to be open about it these days, and it's talked about in politics and media more than it was in years past.
"Being open about it" isn't enough to explain what we are seeing in terms of the increasing number of people identifying as "trans." It is undeniable that there is a huge spike in trans-identification of late, particularly in females. The ratio of TiFs to TiMs has exploded. What we are seeing, especially in these natal girls, defies all statistical explanation, especially when they "come out" in clusters. It's not just the TiFs and ROGD cases, either, the spike in AGP and TiMs who defy Blanchard typology is very real too. The statistical trend in transgender identification simply isn't explicable by more people feeling comfortable expressing their identity.

Something is happening where more people have gender dysphoria or trans identification, internally, and then express it. I would say that in broad social terms what we're seeing is considerably more than trans-identification being "slightly more acceptable." It has reached social acceptability in a dizzyingly fast period of time: homosexuality took decades to make as much progress as transsexuality did in the year of Caitlyn Jenner's very public "coming out" and the advent of simply massive media attention to the subject. I

In some very young circles, trans status is not just "slightly more acceptable," it makes you interesting, it's giving reinforcing attention, it's even idolized, I'd go so far as to say even being considered desirable. This is a significant issue and undeniable if you look at what some young people are putting out on social media.
Partly that's because trans people especially face harsh discrimination and hatred, having way higher likelihood to die from murder or suicide.
Trans people, contrary to narrative, are no more likely to be murdered than the average Americans. And those who do are typically involved in sex work or other high-risk activities. There is simply no "epidemic of violence" towards this community, contradicting some of their talking points. Anybody can do the math for themselves, the numbers of trans murders are frequently published by activists. They may sound high, but really aren't. As for suicide, yes, the rates are significantly elevated, both before and after medical intervention (there doesn't seem to be a benefit in this regard) but attributing this is difficult due to high psychiatric comorbidity. Attributing excess mortality to "discrimination and hatred" is not totally unreasonable but it is not a be-all, end-all explanation by any menas.
As a kid, you knew that you were male at a young age right? Well I imagine it might be the same for some trans people. They might get gender dysphoria at a young age, and not even know what it is. Or they could know right away that they identify as the different sex.
Some trans-identified people do fit this pattern, of being gender nonconforming and feeling gender dysphoria from a very young age, especially those who fit Blanchard's HSTS typology (including gynephilic and GNC TiFs who might be called it's converse.) Many people, an increasing number of people, I would say most, do not fit this pattern, while at the same time, more and more children are said to be trans-identified (while all evidence still points to this not a being stable identity). Especially of note are young TiFs, where rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which by definition does not start this way, is a major if not the major type of trans presentation these days.

Masculine and gynephilic TiFs haven't had enough research done about them but they may, going out on a limb here, resemble HSTS natal males as I noted. AGP type TiMs tend not to display any identification or GD at a young age, almost by definition as well. TiMs and TiFs not categorizable by Blanchard typology, those with more of a nonspecific gender dysphoria and feeling of unbelonging, often start fairly early too but are a diverse group. Once more the research that's available sucks.

A problem across all categories however is a tendency to interpret any vague discontent or "not fitting in" as a gender issue, whether looking back to childhood or in the present. This is encouraged by some informal support networks frequently accessed by trans-identified individuals and is an especially significant problem as it can lead to otherwise troubled people viewing trans identity as a panacea for their issues.
 
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deficiT

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Trans people, contrary to narrative, are no more likely to be murdered than the average Americans. And those who do are typically involved in sex work or other high-risk activities. There is simply no "epidemic of violence" towards this community, contradicting some of their talking points. Anybody can do the math for themselves, the numbers of trans murders are frequently published by activists. They may sound high, but really aren't. As for suicide, yes, the rates are significantly elevated, both before and after medical intervention (there doesn't seem to be a benefit in this regard) but attributing this is difficult due to high psychiatric comorbidity. Attributing excess mortality to "discrimination and hatred" is not totally unreasonable but it is not a be-all, end-all explanation by any menas.
It's not a narrative. The numbers show that trans people experience sexual assault and violence at a higher rate than pretty much any other group. And with the increased visibility, these numbers are increasing.

It has reached social acceptability in a dizzyingly fast period of time: homosexuality took decades to make as much progress as transsexuality did in the year of Caitlyn Jenner's very public "coming out" and the advent of simply massive media attention to the subject.
Maybe it's more acceptable among a certain group of people, but it's really not acceptable overall. Posts in this thread are only indicative that many, many people have a problem with people being trans. Increased visibility of these issues is not necessarily doing many favors for them. There are as many, if not more, bullies as there are people accepting of it.
 

cduggles

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Certainly an interesting thread.

While a rich source of information of a certain type, I would not assume that the online transsexual community is representative of the actual diversity of the community. It’s likely that far more vocal and possibly politically active individuals are represented in online communities.
The models coming from these data should be viewed with an appropriately skeptical eye.
 

birdup.snaildown

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deficiT said:
There are as many, if not more, bullies as there are people accepting of it.

The majority of people I've spoken to (and the majority of people in this thread) who don't "accept" the transgender movement as entirely sensible aren't bullies. I would never insult a trans person and I would refrain from expressing my private opinions outside of a discussion like this. If someone wants me to use certain pronouns, that's fine (within reason) but I don't think it's helpful to tell people they're women when they're not. This is why trans people with penises get frustrated by straight guys not wanting to date them... because they are being sold this mirage in the name of not wanting to offend anyone.

I don't think there are anywhere near as many people (in Australia, anyway) who openly bully transgender people than those who defend them. I guess it depends on your definition of a "bully".
 

Zephyn

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A friend that is mtf or trans did not get surgery on her lower genitals as it is expensive, risky, and she was told by transwomen who had the surgery that it looks like a vagina but it requires using dildos daily, can get infected much easier, and that sexual and masturbatory pleasures are greatly decreased.

As for the other question, I know bisexual and lesbian women who like to penetrate a vagina or anus with tongues, fingers, hands and arms, and vibrators and dildos. They do not all do this but there are other bi and lesbian women who are 'activ/tops and others who are 'pasiv/bottoms' for oral sex, but many are versatile or do both. Rubbing clits and labia together is popular among bisexual and lesbian women.

I have met butch lesbians who dress like men, take on men's names, are dominant and into penetration sexually and some who got their breasts removed or reduced via surgery as they found them heavy cumbersome unsightly flesh bags that they do not like. But these women are not trans at all and will say things such as 'I am not imitating a man. Men imitate me!' Many gay men really dislike lesbians both who are this way, and mostly all lesbians in general. A bisexual man who I lived with felt this way about a butch lesbian co-worker who if he or any other man, politely asked her a work related question she would completely ignore them, and not answer at all. But if any woman asked her the same question or anything or just walked by her desk she would answer all questions, be kind, and polite to women only. I have asked these men why they feel this way about lesbian women and they said how they are tired of hearing the 'plight of women and patriarchy BS' that they have heard since the 1970s and 1980s. They also said lesbian women are 'too PC, thin skinned/too easily offended`, and that ' Many lesbian women have been raped or abused physically/psychologically/sexually by men and even by women.'

No not all lesbian women, or gay/homosexual men are this way. I have a friend that is gay and many of his close friends as well as his sister are lesbian. By lesbian I mean women who are born women who are not sexually attracted to men or any man at all. If a trans person wants to call themselves lesbian in the case of mtf, or gay as ftm that is their choice but the majority of people both LGB and hetero do not want to fuck, date, or partner with someone trans at all.

For transmen my gay friends some of who have had sex with women in the past have said how they want actual men only, and not someone FTM with a fake penis made from part of an arm or leg, or dildo, and they have no desire for MTF who have a penis or who have had a sex change surgery.

There is the old term pansexual, and new terms like heteroflexible/homoflexible which like the slur queer is used by people to avoid saying they are bisexual.

I have heard of people who were considered pansexual but they were into illegal sex acts such as sexual attraction to animals, etc.
I use the term heteroflexible not to avoid saying I am bi, in fact I wish I was fully bi and I've met ppl who claimed they "brainwashes" themselves to be bi or gay by forcing themselves to cum to gay porn over and over again. But I say it because I'm open to homosexual encounters in group sex and the extremely rare occasional one on one encounter, but this would require connection on another level and tap more into my sapiosexual side. I'm quite lonely and frankly men are easier, so I do wish I was fully bi.
 

deficiT

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The majority of people I've spoken to (and the majority of people in this thread) who don't "accept" the transgender movement as entirely sensible aren't bullies. I would never insult a trans person and I would refrain from expressing my private opinions outside of a discussion like this. If someone wants me to use certain pronouns, that's fine (within reason) but I don't think it's helpful to tell people they're women when they're not. This is why trans people with penises get frustrated by straight guys not wanting to date them... because they are being sold this mirage in the name of not wanting to offend anyone.

I don't think there are anywhere near as many people (in Australia, anyway) who openly bully transgender people than those who defend them. I guess it depends on your definition of a "bully".
I'm not calling anyone in this thread a bully. More speaking along the lines of jokes you hear working in construction or similar field (constant), or the schoolyard variety.
 

Zephyn

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Messages
2,318
This is an emotionally manipulative argument, but not only that, it's based on false assumptions. There is simply not good evidence that medical and surgical intervention improves social or mental health outcomes for trans-identified individuals who experience gender dysphoria (who are often already very troubled individuals beyond their gender issues. Psychiatric comorbidity is high across the board. I've mentioned cluster "B" personality disorders and autism, but comorbidity is high in almost every category.) By saying there is "not good evidence" I don't mean that you won't find studies that find improvement, but that at the very best, that the jury is still out on this one. Much work in this field is also tainted by politics.

The most recent, largest, and arguably the best study on this issue to date, published in 2019 in AJP (one of the few journals I read faithfully every issue) is an interesting case: it was initially touted as finding benefit to "transition" (both by the authors, to a degree, and by the media, to an extreme degree, enter the political taint as I called it before.) A correction was rather swiftly issued saying that such benefit was not actually found, based on the same data set. The study as originally presented got a significant amount of attention. The correction, which is written in very careful and not entirely easy to parse language, got nowhere near as much love from the press, both popular and professional.

This argument also contains the assumption that the only "safe way for trans individuals to live happy and fulfilled lives" necessarily involves medical/surgical intervention, the object of which is a mostly cosmetic (and to a some degree hormonal) change to resemble the opposite natal sex ("transition"), and not only that but such intervention done at a young age. The jury is very much still out on that one too.

Depends on the definition of "plenty," I suppose. "Pansexual," a recent concept, implicitly seems to refer to trans-identified individuals, so I'll grant you that. The assumption that bisexuality would mean you are more into them seems to invoke a rather crude and possibly offensive understanding of bisexuality, though.

Regardless, the pool of possible partners is very small. Trans-identified individuals often complain that it winds up being limited to "chasers" and other trans-identified, especially in the case of persons who are not attracted to their natal sex.

There was recently a kerfuffle on social media that made it to some mainstream outlets relating to a "zoomer" (Gen Z) kid who made a video on TikTok (of course) saying he "made a new sexuality, SuperStraight" which meant an individual interested only in natal members of the opposite sex, to wit, not trans-identified ones. There are a number of interesting things baked in here ("made a new sexuality?") but perhaps the most interesting is the implication that an individual who is "straight," without the "super" qualification, would by default be interested in trans-identified partners. I feel like only a zoomer raised on social media and "TWAW" could come up with this.

While the whole "SuperStraight" thing was decried as "transphobic," this implication is at the very least optimistic, if not outright trans-affirming! This leads into the who question if individuals being somehow obligated to consider or even choose trans-identified partners, something which I've discussed above. The pressure here is particularly acute in young "LGBTQ+" circles and is particularly felt by young natal female lesbians. From the outside the whole thing looks an awful lot like male-socialized individuals putting sexual pressure on female-socialized individuals, a story as old as time. With regards to natal males, homosexual or heterosexual, the dynamic is just not the same. Androphilic (and perhaps "autoandropilic") trans-identified females often seek out gay male partners but, I would posit due to male and female socialization once again, the pressure dynamic is not the same. What's more there's a lot of fetishization of homosexual members of the opposite sex both among natal males and natal females (just look at the popularity of "lesbian" porn, "slash" and yaoi, respectively.)

"Full transition" is a problematic descriptor. What exactly do you mean? Full hormonal and surgical intervention including genital surgery? Not an option for everyone and not necessarily a good thing to do on a body that is not yet developed, either for health reasons or to achieve the optimal cosmetic and functional result. Or do you mean the best aesthetic results?

What would such research look like, ethically conducted? What's going on in society generally now amounts to a massive uncontrolled experiment which would never pass muster at an ethics board.

This rhetoric assumes a concept of an essentialist and permanent quality of "gender" which can differ from biological sex, something I've discussed at some length in earlier posts. This is a different claim than one that states that "transition" is a treatment for "gender dysphoria," something that unlike the former claim, which is almost theological ("female soul in a male body"), admits at least some scientific study. Where, again, there are a lot of unknowns.

You understand the risks? Even experts do not understand the risks. Giving puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, let alone surgical "transition," to young individuals with immature bodies and minds is utterly uncharted territory. Long-term effects are just unknown. With regards to surgery, it's problematic when done to immature bodies (see the celebrated case of Jazz Jennings, trans-identified male who began medical/surgical "transition" very young and documented on a reality TV show: genital surgery had to be revised, essentially due to it having been done before full body maturity.) Hormones just have effects that are unknown. I discussed puberty blockers at some length above.

But even if these are benign procedures, which is a big if, we are left with the fact that not only some but a very significant majority, as high as 80%, of youth who trans-identify at some point revert to identification with their natal sex. Rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) is significant here but this applies to trans-identification in general. With this in mind intervention before the time at which most of them "desist" is grossly irresponsible and likely to cause irreparable harm, especially to natal females, where hormones have a more permanent effect and (leaving aside genital surgery, which is less commonly done) double mastectomy, which is becoming increasingly common in natal females who identify as either male or "nonbinary", is a fairly extreme procedure.

The case for early intervention essentially boils down to cosmetic (and to a fairly unknown extent, hormonal) results being better if intervention starts at a young age before pubertal changes are finished. This is much more true of early male-to-female interventions than female-to-male (which follows from the same facts that cause cross-sex hormonal interventions in trans-identified females to have more permanent effects: testosterone causes more permanent cosmetic changes than estrogen does.) These changes are then attached to putative benefits to mental health. Of note, estrogen is a mild mood elevator (in anyone; and testosterone has it's psychological effects as well, as anyone who has juiced can attest), so trans-identified persons of both natal sexes have that going for them (the neuropsychiatric role of cross-sex hormones is very understudied, though.) The development of evidence for mental health benefits of puberty blockers in trans-identified youth is still ongoing but studies appear to show that something is there. However it's very difficult to control for the fact that, inter alia, that puberty is in itself distressing and that the child who is getting the blockers is going to be thrust into a very different social context.

The benefits of any of these interventions in the long term are simply unknown (will they fare better than adults undergoing transition?) as intervening with children at such a young age is such a novel phenomenon. This alone, not even going into the possible medical risks, should give us significant pause, but we are jumping wholeheartedly into doing such interventions. What will happen to these children as the mature, and especially to the significant portion of them who "desist" and even desire "detransition" (and those who do not do so because of social pressure or "sunk cost fallacy" but who still cease to experience the identification they did when younger) is simply unknown but it is entirely reasonable to foresee significant problems on the horizon. Excessive optimism is not only unwarranted but is potentially dangerous. What we are doing now is likely to have huge consequences, not only for the individuals directly getting these interventions and their families, but for society at large. What consequences remain to be seen, but what's going on now is simply irresponsible in the light of that very uncertainty.
I've personally met two people who transitioned and then regretted it and switched back. Thankfully at least one that I know of did not change genitals. But they still thought the entire experience was deeply traumatizing
 
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