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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

w01fg4ng

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In your head
Your example of what it means to be a boy scout is to allow girls into the organization even though they have their own.
I'm pretty far removed from the current generation of boy scouts and never said one way or the other if it's what we should or shouldn't do. I've simply speculated about the current generation however I've given explicit descriptions about my own experience. Care to share yours?
 

JGrimez

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I'm pretty far removed from the current generation of boy scouts and never said one way or the other if it's what we should or shouldn't do. I've simply speculated about the current generation however I've given explicit descriptions about my own experience. Care to share yours?
I don't have any experience I'm just a casual observer of the state of our society
 

alasdairm

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the piece claims that "The WHO advises that children aged 0-4 are given information about enjoyment and pleasure when touching one’s body..."

i searched the document for part of the quoted section ("information about enjoyment and pleasure") and could not find it.

if that quoted phrase is not present, then i just reasonably assume the rest of the thing is just fake outrage, fabricated nonsense.

alasdair
 

JessFR

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the piece claims that "The WHO advises that children aged 0-4 are given information about enjoyment and pleasure when touching one’s body..."

i searched the document for part of the quoted section ("information about enjoyment and pleasure") and could not find it.

if that quoted phrase is not present, then i just reasonably assume the rest of the thing is just fake outrage, fabricated nonsense.

alasdair
The specific quoted phrase doesn't exist, but it's also not entirely fabricated either.

What it is, is they've taken the sex education matrix provided in the document, and combined together what it says as the description for the column representing information, with the specific row for Sexuality.

So combining "give information about" with
"enjoyment and pleasure when
touching one’s own body,
early childhood masturbation".

It can be found on page 38.

Combining the two in this way is not exactly dishonest or manipulative IMO. But I'd say the broader suggestions about this probably are.

Still, it does however seem like the WHO document is suggesting children be introduced to sex education a fair bit earlier than I would have thought best. But I'm just going off instinct, if I went over the data available and knew more about the subject of early childhood education it's possible my opinion would be very different.
 
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Yourbaker

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Do you have a link to it Jess?

Off the top of my thinking without reading the entire document I'd say it makes sense. Education about anything you will face in life done before you encounter that moment is always good. Because I've grown up in a world where sex was never discussed for fear of someone learning something I can't see how the opposite could bring harm.

In my uneducated world as a child there was a lot of sex going on, we just didn't know anything except not to talk to any adults. Fear of discipline taught us to lie as children, perhaps knowledge would have made us a safer. At least 6 of the kids I went to elementary rural school with were sexually assaulted by teachers. Several became involved in ongoing affairs and eventually made the news.

When our media saturates us with violence and gore we are worried about love, passion and pleasure becoming part of our education system? I'll read the document but I would doubt any reason to ever fear education.

The only document I can find has nothing about ages 0-4 at all on page 38. And I haven't read all 140 pages yet.
 
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JGrimez

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From the Sexuality Education Matrix in the WHO document, Standards for Sexuality Education in Europe. (Screenshot)
LINK (PDF)

Call me a prude but that's inappropriate
 

Yourbaker

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If you want to be called prude you could change your online name.

People fear things they don't understand (sex and physical intimacy) so they make complex rules and laws and attempt to force others to follow their rules. Often it begins as the simple idea that the older generation learned things following method A so we should all do exactly the same, people fear change. It's really the same in almost every field. As a species we keep doing things the way we learned despite it not being the best, we even attempt to enforce our poor methods on others.

It's actually very normal and happens a lot so it doesn't make you a special prude it just means you, like everyone else, have a knee jerk reactions to the idea of educating people younger or beneath you with a better education then you received. It leaves you with a sense of being eclipsed by the generation coming from behind and you react by wanting to obstruct their rapid advance when your own generation advanced so slowly. There are a lot of different reasons older generations make rules that impeed younger ones, our sense of competition as a species could use some improvement.

Better, more complete education can never be a step in the wrong direction.
 

JessFR

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Better, more complete education can never be a step in the wrong direction.
Id argue that it is possible for a certain subject in education to be age inappropriate. For instance it doesn't make a lot of sense to be teaching 4 year olds linear algebra or something.

Grimez specific example above however is not what I'd classify as age inappropriate however. I'm just saying that inappropriate education for a 4 year old is something I'd say does exist.
 

JGrimez

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I'm just saying that inappropriate education for a 4 year old is something I'd say does exist.
If it's not sexual topics then what crosses the line?

I know for some people it's fashionable to be as super duper carefree liberal as possible - but most people would not be comfortable following these recommendations.

IMO this is an example of the establishment pushing the boundaries incrementally.
 

mal3volent

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How about we don't sexualize children?

BTW this doesn't just say 4 yrs old it says ages 0-4.

Sick.
there are certain scientific facts that are sexual in nature.

you didn't answer my question . How is it inappropriate?

is it inappropriate simply because it makes you personally uncomfortable ?
 

JGrimez

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It's inappropriate because I've been warning about the systemic normalization of pedophilia since the last election.
Then when I show people evidence they just say "I don't see anything wrong with that".
I can't even mention this topic without getting a ban on this board so I only brought it up because you asked me specifically.

there are certain scientific facts that are sexual in nature.
Yeah and a scientific fact is that there's no reason to teach children 0-4 years about rubbing genitals for sexual satisfaction.
Worse yet this is the recommendation from the World Health Organization.
 

mal3volent

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Worse yet this is the recommendation from the World Health Organization.
this wouldn't be an attempt to demonize the WHO for political purposes, would it?

did you actually read the pdf you linked that image from?

When talking about the sexual behaviour of children and young people, it is very important to keep in mind that sexuality is different for children and adults and that adults should not exam- ine sexual behaviour of children and young people from their own perspective.

Adults give sexual significance to behaviour on the basis of their adult experiences and some- times find it very difficult to see things through children’s eyes. Yet it is essential to adopt their perspective.

Individuals have an important and active role in their own development process during the various stages of life. Integrating sexuality with other as- pects of their personality, such as the development of self-esteem, competency in relationships and bonding, is an important developmental task for young people.

All changes in sexual development are also influenced by biological, psychological and social factors: based on their experience, peo- ple develop an idea of what type of sexual behav- iour – when and with whom – is “appropriate”, what effects and reactions to expect and how they should feel about this.
 

TheLoveBandit

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Getting to the point ...

From the Sexuality Education Matrix in the WHO document, Standards for Sexuality Education in Europe. (Screenshot)
LINK (PDF)

Call me a prude but that's inappropriate

I gave this another look, and I'm not finding the outrage.

Human body & development - they may not grasp it all, but you can give them an under 4y-old explanation of what the parts are. You do NOT have to explain the penis into vagina (or other variants) beyond 'the penis is where you pee', as that's all they need at that point.
Fertility & reproduction - they are going to ask, so you have to give an answer. What's outlined on the chart is age appropriate = babies come from mommy bellies. No details required, as that's typically enough to satisfy curiosity at that age.
Sexuality - do you believe you should twist a kid's head by saying they cannot or should-not touch themselves? Or is it better to give them a framework of 'it is okay to touch and explore your self and how it feels, just not for other to see or touch you (until <insert criteria of age, relationship status, etc>).

The last bit of 'physical closeness' is probably misplaced into sexuality, and unless framed in an appropriate setting (ie age, relationship status) if it IS in reference to sexuality, then it ought be framed in general 'relationships' like mom likes to be with baby, family bonding time (especially for small children and parents) in a non-sexual context.
 

mal3volent

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I gave this another look, and I'm not finding the outrage.

Human body & development - they may not grasp it all, but you can give them an under 4y-old explanation of what the parts are. You do NOT have to explain the penis into vagina (or other variants) beyond 'the penis is where you pee', as that's all they need at that point.
Fertility & reproduction - they are going to ask, so you have to give an answer. What's outlined on the chart is age appropriate = babies come from mommy bellies. No details required, as that's typically enough to satisfy curiosity at that age.
Sexuality - do you believe you should twist a kid's head by saying they cannot or should-not touch themselves? Or is it better to give them a framework of 'it is okay to touch and explore your self and how it feels, just not for other to see or touch you (until <insert criteria of age, relationship status, etc>).

The last bit of 'physical closeness' is probably misplaced into sexuality, and unless framed in an appropriate setting (ie age, relationship status) if it IS in reference to sexuality, then it ought be framed in general 'relationships' like mom likes to be with baby, family bonding time (especially for small children and parents) in a non-sexual context.
exactly, the text actually says that most of this info at this age is just to satisfy the child's curiosity.

a young person's education on these things should be honest and continuous throughout their development. When you start putting barriers up that's when development stalls. and that's how you get 15 and 16 years olds becoming parents.

I've never understood why so many pro lifers are so anti sex Ed. If you want less abortions start teaching kids what their bodies do and how to not get pregnant in the first place.
 
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