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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

JessFR

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I care less about fairness than other people. Fairness will never exist absolutely in the world.

This is something else where our beliefs are aligned. It actually kinda irritates me sometimes when people bitch about things being unfair. Mainly because I don't think it's healthy as an adult to expect things to always be fair.

We can and should try and make a fair world, but there are limits with how much I think fairness in itself can justify.
 

mal3volent

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If your freedom infringes on another person's freedom, they are not absolutely free.

how does a man opting out of fatherhood infringe on the freedom of the woman who wants to be a mother? It is her CHOICE (pro choice, remember?) to go through with the pregnancy or not. a consensual act between two parties resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. Are we pro choice only when it comes to women, then little fascists when it comes to the men?
 

DeadManWalkin'

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I once manipulated a girl to make abortion, but she deserved it. She did speed shitloads and we had only been fucking for 2 weeks.
I didn't know could I trust her, I didn't know am I even father material.
I used pretty vile threatening tactics against her to get her to do it, but it was the right choice. I feel kinda bad for it - the way I did it.
But she was hardlining on keeping it and you know - I don't negotiate with terrorists. She had a hostage which was my kid so all my tactics were justified.
Now my current one is pregnant.
She wants to keep it, I'm kind of 50/50 because I know CPS will be on our ass for the whole life of the kid.
I don't want the kid to go into foster care like I did, it fucks you up and you'll be 90% addict when you get out of there at 18.
You can't even call a fetus a breathing being.


What even is it?
It has a heartbeat. It's a human.
It's killing a human being. But well, is life of a human worth living? It can be kind of euthanazia too if the baby is mentally handicapped.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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mal3volent said:
how does a man opting out of fatherhood infringe on the freedom of the woman who wants to be a mother? It is her CHOICE (pro choice, remember?) to go through with the pregnancy or not. a consensual act between two parties resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. Are we pro choice only when it comes to women...

The only reason anybody is prochoice is because this is a weird situation in which a human is living inside another human. Somebody used the word parasite on this thread. It's not a parasite. It's crazy that we've gotten to a point where people think it is normal to describe a naturally developing member of our species as a parasite. If the child developed in an egg - like a reptile or a bird - there would be no equivalent to abortion. Do male penguins have the right to say, "nah. fuck this bro. I'm off to the pub." Can they just leave the egg there?

It is illegal to cause a baby to die by neglecting them. You have to actively keep children alive, but you can actively decide to kill them if they are in the womb. I'm not saying abortion should be illegal, but - at the very least - that's an odd thing to consider... isn't it?

Maybe it is fair for us to treat fetuses and viable pregnancies and third trimester babies as if they are human lives, rather than applying a double standard in the first place.

then little fascists when it comes to the men?

It is fair if everybody gets treated like garbage, because then nobody experiences privilege. This is the problem with applying fairness to something like abortion. Abortion isn't fair, from lots of different angles. It is complicated. What is fair in this situation isn't clear.

It certainly isn't fair for a biological father (that wants to keep the pregnancy) or for the little human that is aborted, but that doesn't mean - in the name of fairness - we should make it shittier than it already is for the mother either by allowing men to opt out of the financial responsibilities they have for their children.

This is fairness being used for evil.
 

birdup.snaildown

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w01fg4ng said:
What even is it?

Depends if you are looking at it from a spiritual/religious perspective. Scientifically, at a very early stage it has functioning organs. Babies don't experience a giant developmental leap upon birth. At some stage, obviously, it is a human prior to being born. If you induce labour one week early - or one month early - it is still a baby. This is why it is harder to qualify for a late term abortion, because (at that stage) you are killing a baby... How much you a want to separate yourself from this is impossible for me to define. Very early on, fetuses don't look much like humans. They look more like something from the Alien franchise. I think that is the image people are more comfortable with. It doesn't take them long to develop into tiny humans. Throughout the majority of the pregnancy, they are clearly small people. They are not clusters of cells.
 

mal3volent

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we should make it shittier than it already is for the mother either by allowing men to opt out of the financial responsibilities they have for their children.

but the children wouldn't be children if left up to the male.
this is my entire fucking point.
A man could be down on his knees, begging and crying for the mother to let him have his baby. And she could simply say no. But a man isn't able to opt out because of his genitals? The mother can abort, not abort, put it up for adoption, apply for federal aid, the options are endless.
 

JessFR

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They look more like something from the Alien franchise.

I think this might actually be the reverse, that the alien franchise made it look like a fetus.

I mean it's in keeping with the messed up themes of impregnation and sex in the movie anyway.
 

birdup.snaildown

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mal3volent said:
but the children wouldn't be children if left up to the male.
this is my entire fucking point.
A man could be down on his knees, begging and crying for the mother to let him have his baby. And she could simply say no. But a man isn't able to opt out because of his genitals? The mother can abort, not abort, put it up for adoption, apply for federal aid, the options are endless.

Yes, but the fairness equation is more complex than you're making it out to be.

You have to look at the big picture.

Reproductive advantages of being a male human.

You can naturally have thousands of biological children.
Each birth doesn't have a small chance of killing you.
Your insides are not going to get ripped to shit.
You can run away before the child is born.
You don't have to carry the children.

Reproductive disadvantages of being a male human.

You can naturally have thousands of biological children.
You are financially responsible for the welfare of your children.
You don't get to choose.

...

Note: all of these are dictated by biology.
 

mal3volent

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Yes, but the fairness equation is more complex than you're making it out to be.

You have to look at the big picture.

Reproductive advantages of being a male human.

You can naturally have thousands of biological children.
Each birth doesn't have a small chance of killing you.
Your insides are not going to get ripped to shit.
You can run away before the child is born.
You don't have to carry the children.

Reproductive disadvantages of being a male human.

You can naturally have thousands of biological children.
You are financially responsible for the welfare of your children.
You don't get to choose.

...

Note: all of these are dictated by biology.

you are very dramatically moving the goal posts here.

we are talking about a specific situation.

1 male, 1 female in an unplanned pregnancy in modern society.

insides getting ripped to shit? Yeah I'd say his will feel like it when he hears the news his child has been terminated.
 

JessFR

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Yes, but the fairness equation is more complex than you're making it out to be.

You have to look at the big picture.

Reproductive advantages of being a male human.

You can naturally have thousands of biological children.
Each birth doesn't have a small chance of killing you.
Your insides are not going to get ripped to shit.
You can run away before the child is born.
You don't have to carry the children.

Reproductive disadvantages of being a male human.

You can naturally have thousands of biological children.
You are financially responsible for the welfare of your children.
You don't get to choose.

...

Note: all of these are dictated by biology.

Uhh, women are financially responsible too, how is that a difference? Honestly I think the first one is a dubious disadvantage too.

So basically men get a ton of advantages and bitch like crazy over the one thing that doesn't go their way.

Sounds about right. ;)
 

birdup.snaildown

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mal3volent said:
you are very dramatically moving the goal posts here.

we are talking about a specific situation.

1 male, 1 female in an unplanned pregnancy in modern society.

insides getting ripped to shit? Yeah I'd say his will feel like it when he hears the news his child has been terminated.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm saying things (overall / big picture) cannot be fair because men and women are different anatomically. Perhaps things lean in favour of unfairness towards men in the situation you've described, but things lean in the other direction too. Take out the financial disadvantage and the situation (abortion / parenthood) is too unfairly balanced against the woman.

Taking money away from one kid as a punishment for somebody killing another one doesn't seem like much of a solution to me.

JessFR said:
women are financially responsible too, how is that a difference?

I should have said men often are expected to take the financially responsible position, particularly during the early years of child development. This is certainly true (to one degree or another) in most parts of the world.
 

Nipper76

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I have 3 daughters, I've always wanted a boy, but its no bother, I have my cars, which I love. Now my wife tells me she is pregnant again, she's had two abortions in the past, one due to medical issues the other was her choice not mine.

I've asked her to keep this one and she is but I've now got to sell our main car, which isn't a difficult choice but I'll miss that car alot, looks like a 7 seater for us no. But I still have one for myself, so it's a compromise.

I have pressured her a bit, I was upset about the last abortion she had. We're blessed with bringing another life into this world, so taking that life away seems like a callous selfish act, especially if I was to consider the reasons, such as keeping a car i like. I hope this will be a boy, but I don't mind as my girls have a brilliant time together, so one more will add to the party.

I'm getting the snip next, 4 will be enough and I don't want any more decisions to make like this or put the wife through further pain.
 

Nipper76

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You should have a bluelight gender reveal party.

lol "blue" it's a boy!!!

or more disappointment for you otherwise right?
It will be me versus the girls, they all want another sister! I won't be disappointed so long as the baby is healthy, I'll just have to come to terms with having girly sperm. Boys presents are just so much better though, we've got way too many dolls in our house!
 

JessFR

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Have a thousand children, then let me know how it went.

I'm not a man. I literally can't. :p

A man could though, it's just a matter of logistics and cooperation.

What I'm asking is how that disadvantages man, that he could do that. And before you come back with financial responsibility that's not inherently connected with this attribute. There are sperm donors, they don't have to pay, it's not automatic.
 

JessFR

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I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. That's why I asked exactly what the disadvantage is of men being able to have lots of children.
 

D's

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I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. That's why I asked exactly what the disadvantage is of men being able to have lots of children.
To have a higher chance of carrying on your last name. Or maybe it is a social thing? Look at other countries & tribes. Maybe if the man has lots of children then he is seen higher in the community.
Maybe it's because they like to fuck.
 
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