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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

birdup.snaildown

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When I was 19 years old my girlfriend bought me some pot (which was highly unusual) and drove me out to a suburban park. When we got there, she told me chop up a mix. I knew something was up, but free weed was on the table so I didn't overthink it. After I had a cone, she told me she was pregnant.

My head still buzzing from the bong, this was not at all what I wanted to hear. I guess she figured weed would calm me down but that's not how it works. Thoughts raced through my head. I started getting super paranoid, but I fought through it. This wasn't a serious relationship (for me, anyway) so I said - as delicately as I could - that we should get an abortion.

She didn't argue with me. Pretty sure she would've kept it if I'd had a different reaction. Not too long afterwards, we broke up.

If I didn't say I wanted to kill this life inside her, I would have an son or daughter graduating high school. Over the years, I've often thought about this person. What they might look like. What they might have accomplished in life. It always made me feel sad, but I pushed it away.

About five years later - after consuming a truckload of drugs - I was struggling to conceive a child with my wife. I had a sperm analysis test and it came back as a very low count. They told me it was basically impossible for us to conceive naturally. It hit me like a tonne of bricks. I killed my only child out of convenience. There was no way we could afford IVF.

They didn't tell me (they probably didn't know at the time) that chronic marijuana use temporarily reduces sperm count.

Twelve years later - at the age of 36 - I took a three month break from weed and conceived a child with my second wife on my first attempt. We have a healthy baby girl. She's the light of my life.

Now I look back at that abortion when I was a teenager and think about the person I killed because I didn't want to bother raising a child. I can't help but look at my daughter and imagine her not existing because of selfishness.

This is a sensitive topic. People get really upset about anything even slightly pro-life, but it's complicated isn't it?

One one hand, women have a right to make decisions. I understand that. You can't force someone to carry a child they don't want. Then there are the extreme examples (rape / incest) which I totally get.

I opted for an abortion because I was raised thinking that was the right thing to do. It has gone beyond normalisation now. These days abortion has been embraced as a fundamental right. People at women's rallies joyfully exclaim their right to kill their children. There is no inkling of remorse. There appears to be no understanding that this is a life.

I know women who make little to no effort to prevent conception because they know they can just kill it. It doesn't appear to be uncommon for one woman to have half a dozen abortions. This seems crazy to me. One is understandable. But three? Four? Six?

I'm not saying abortion should be illegal (that's complicated) but hasn't it gone too far? The Western world is now completely detached from the reality of the procedure.

I said in another thread the left wants the freedom to kill babies and @Zephyn replied something like, you mean the left wants bodily autonomy for women. Bodily autonomy. This phrase is chillingly removed from the reality of the situation. Why don't we just call it what it is?
 

TripSitterNZ

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women who go through abortions are left with heavy mental scars the rest of their life. Its not something that should be done on a whim only for extreme cases. The fact the promotion of murdering innocent life because these fuckwits could not wear a condom or use contraception in alot of cases the blood is on there hands and their mind not mine. Abortion should be heavily restricted to at least seeing 3 different medical professionals who all agree it should be performed for said serious reasons and the people who pop out endless kids here for the benefit should be sterilized i.e anybody on social welfare should be sterilized after two kids maybe even one.
 

birdup.snaildown

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I agreed with you up to the sterilization stuff.

It's a slippery slope if you start sterilizing people against their will, isn't it? I mean, how would that even work? Do you abduct them in the middle of the night and strap them down then drug them unconscious?

If you start giving the government those sort of powers, what kind of precedent does that set?

If the government has the power to abduct people and perform forced medical procedures, maybe they will abduct you for taking LSD and insert a chip in your brain.

TripSitterNZ said:
women who go through abortions are left with heavy mental scars the rest of their life.

What about women who are sterilized against their will?
 

JessFR

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@birdup.snaildown I think you can be beyond frustrating with your head in the sand sometimes.

But I completely get where you're coming from here and I empathize with you. It's not easy living with that kind of regret. And I agree that some people are entirely too casual about abortion.

And I've been frustrated before about how often a fetus is "just a bundle of cells" until it's their bundle of cells, then suddenly it's a life.

Like you though I feel conflicted, between my pro life beliefs and my desire not for force people to carry children they don't want.

I understand, is what I'm saying. And I agree. <3
 

birdup.snaildown

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JessFR said:
I think you can be beyond frustrating with your head in the sand sometimes.

I'm always willing to have a conversation. A lot of the time, you get super emotional (like you did with the transcript stuff) and blow up and run away from the conversation. Like I said, I've changed my mind on this forum before and admitted that I was wrong. If you're frustrated that somebody doesn't understand something, you should calmly make an effort to explain what they're missing. As usual, nobody did this with the Trump situation. Instantly, y'all went to sarcasm and anger. But that's okay. It's to be expected from lefties.
 

Xorkoth

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I think that, contrary to the talking points that many repeat, the incidence of women using abortion as their contraception method is pretty low (though surely non-zero). Women I've talked to who have gotten abortions have found it pretty traumatic even if they ultimately still thought it was the right thing. I'm quite sure there are some people who are very detached from the reality of what it is, especially if they have not actually gotten one themselves, but it seems to me that most of the time people are getting abortions, it's because it's a reasoned decision that they really aren't able to raise a child, or because it's the product of rape. After all we have

I do think, however, that a lot of people who have not faced having an abortion don't quite get that you are, in fact, ending a life that would have gone on to become a human. It should certainly not be taken lightly, but it should absolutely not be outlawed, the only result will be increased suffering from going back to "back alley" abortions, and increased numbers of children born into situations that will lead to negative outcomes for the parent(s), society and the children themselves.

What really bothers me the most is the religious people who not only want to impose their views on everyone and outlaw abortion, but then who also try to limit access to contraception, and then (usually) complain about deadbeat parents who produce drains on society. However, the core argument against abortion totally makes sense to me because it IS killing an unborn child. I would be strongly against it if my girlfriend got pregnant and wanted to get an abortion, and I can imagine how traumatic it would be to have to think about what could have been for the rest of my life.
 

JessFR

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I think that, contrary to the talking points that many repeat, the incidence of women using abortion as their contraception method is pretty low.

Sure, I agree. But how many women aren't being as careful as they otherwise might have been because they know abortion is always there just in case?

It's easy to mentally justify taking risks if you feel there's a fallback. Knowing there's no fallback or a much much harder one tends to make people more careful.

I don't think anyone uses abortion as a form of contraception, not really. But I do suspect there are some who are a little less careful for it.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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@TripSitterNZ

You seem a bit stressed out and angry at your fellow man. You should check out this thread about awakening the world. Here's a little snippet.

I live in this moment in full compassion and acceptance of what is.

It was written by this totally chill guy, who's into acceptance and love and has the beautiful monk-like attitude towards the world. I think you could learn a lot from him.

Come to think about it, his name was - it was you...
Damn.
 

TripSitterNZ

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ehh we sterlize animals agaisn't their will so why not dirty humans who literally do nothing in society expect smoke crack have 15 kids and steal everything.

To accept the present moment does not mean take a passive appoarch to life its about transforming this world to a higher level of living and if that involves reducing all the useless fuckers who are breeding out of control so be it.

Bring gulags back and mix communism and capatlisam today balance will be good send prisioners and useless fuckers to hard labor.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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@Xorkoth

I liked a lot of what you said. I'm picking at the things I disagree with.

it seems to me that most of the time people are getting abortions, it's because it's a reasoned decision that they really aren't able to raise a child, or because it's the product of rape.

Abortions that result from rape are a very small percentage. As for your other point: they don't have to raise the child. Someone will gladly adopt it. If they are financially unable to raise a child, there are support systems in place.

I do think, however, that a lot of people who have not faced having an abortion don't quite get that you are, in fact, ending a life that would have gone on to become a human. It should certainly not be taken lightly, but it should absolutely not be outlawed, the only result will be increased suffering from going back to "back alley" abortions, and increased numbers of children born into situations that will lead to negative outcomes for the parent(s), society and the children themselves.

I'm not suggesting it should be outlawed.

Your argument that the "only" result will be increased back alley abortions is demonstrably false. As for children born into situations that will lead to negative outcomes, do you have any basis for this statement? There is adoption - as I said - but, beyond that, there should be a wealth of evidence to back up your statement from countries that have outlawed abortion. There isn't.

...


In NYC, abortions outnumber births in the African American community.
 
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atara

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Most right-wing politicians who campaign on their anti-abortion stances will never actually implement what is demanded of them, because they know that they are otherwise odious to the single-issue "pro-life" voters who sustain them. Republicans would probably lose a fifth of their support if abortion was illegal. Likewise, contraception must be limited to keep abortion in the news, because otherwise what's there to protest?

So I just hope you realize that before you consider voting for someone you otherwise think is monstrous because they say they're pro-life. They're not on your side.
 

JessFR

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What's funny is there's piles of people who wanna adopt. But have to adopt from overseas because there aren't enough kids locally and child and family services like to place kids with family members for obvious reasons.

I've also never liked the rape exception either if I'm honest.

Actually, if I'm honest, I hate the rape abortion exception, and you know why? And some of you will probably laugh. It's anti women.

Before you lynch me hear my reasoning...

Either you believe a fetus is a life, at least for abortion purposes, or... You dont. If you don't... Why are you opposing abortion, regardless of the circumstances.

And if you do.. What does it being a product of rape change? It's still an innocent child being killed.

In fact.. The only reason I can see.. Why someone would exempt rape victim pregnancies and not others.. Is because they think rape victims did nothing wrong, while those slutty promiscuous regular women somehow did.

And fuck that shit.

For the record I'm not actually arguing that abortion should be outright banned, I have mixed feelings on the issue. What I'm arguing is that from a pro life perspective the rape victim exception shows me that you are NOT pro life because you honestly believe the fetus is an innocent human life deserving of protection, that's a politically convenient pretext. You are pro life because you are pro punishing women for being promiscuous.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@JessFR

I believe in the rape exemption not because I believe in punishing women for being promiscuous. That's really out there. Making abortion illegal (rape or not) has nothing to do with promiscuity. It has to do with responsibility. You can fuck a thousand men and not get pregnant if you are careful. Contraception (or lack thereof) doesn't equate to varying degrees of promiscuity. That's a false argument. It's the same argument incidentally that pro-choice feminists often make.

Let me ask you this: do you believe in the incest exemption?

I believe in the rape exemption (despite it still being an innocent life) because rape is traumatic and I imagine it would be highly traumatic to be carrying your rapists baby for 9 months after being assaulted. It's still a baby so I'm conflicted about it, but like you said this is a complicated issue.

TripSitterNZ said:
crimminal behaviour runs in genetics

Prove it.
 

JessFR

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Do I believe in the incest exemption? Mmmm no probably not.

It's still an innocent life you're terminating, all the same ethical problems exist.

If you could actually show that there were major developmental problems, then maybe I'd agree. But just in principle? I still don't like it no.

Of course it's more traumatic. And I don't wanna have to make anyone go through a pregnancy they don't want.

But does that justify ending an innocent life?

I honestly don't know. Like you I feel very conflicted on all of this.
 

deficiT

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People don't get sensitive about anything "pro-life", they get sensitive when the state tries to police their bodies.

No one at any protest is "happily cheering for abortion". They are speaking out against a breach on their personal autonomy by the State.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. Simple as that. No one gets abortions for fun, it's a serious decision, and like your post alluded to, it has lifelong effects. Some people are not ready to have a baby, and so it's fucked to think you can force a baby to be born into poverty or some other bad condition just because you think it's right.

But applying your understanding of "what a human life" is, onto everyone else, isn't cool. Most people are pro-choice, so it's clear that there is an argument to be made that the "pro-life" side shouldn't be governing with only one party's interest in mind.

It seems to me like the moral conservatives start to get bored with that "life" they want to save as soon as the baby is born. How many serious pro-lifers actually have a stance to eliminate poverty, homelessness, etc.? Not many, most of you don't even think people should get paid a decent minimum wage.
 

JessFR

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@JessFR

Wow. You don't believe in the incest exemption?
You're like a full blown Christian pro-life advocate?

I would never have guessed that.

Ehh, to clarify I'm not willing to fight to ban abortion. I'm just not willing to invest effort in making people carry pregnancies, potentially very traumatic ones, that they don't want.

But... No I don't really believe abortion is morally OK, I don't really believe that it becomes morally OK in the case of incest of rape either. At the same time I recognize that other people honestly don't believe that, and I don't think they can be blamed for making choices they honestly don't think are immoral, even if I do.

What I would like is to expend energy advancing more access to contraception, reducing sex crimes, etc, so abortion isn't necessary and these seemingly impossible moral questions can be avoided entirely.

But... I do believe, for most practical purposes anyway, that life begins at conception. I don't believe that a fetus is just a bunch of cells with no real value.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@deficiT

Most people are pro-choice,

Most people where, in the US or the world?
You could be right. I don't know. Just asking what you mean.

People don't get sensitive about anything "pro-life"

Some people certainly do. I've literally said the words I'm pro-life in certain contexts and people have gone fucking apeshit. Try it as a social experiment and you will see what I mean.


No one at any protest is "happily cheering for abortion".

I've seen numerous videos of people chanting happily for abortion.

...

I'm not sure what you're saying, generally. Is there a problem with me expressing my opinion? Should neither side of the debate express their opinion? Or is it just a problem when the government gets involved. I never said it should be illegal. Neither did @JessFR. We're just saying how we feel.
 
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