Heroin The use of other drugs to get off heroin

[Erik b]

I was recently speaking to someone, he stated he used meth to get off heroin a few times. He claimed he locked himself in a room with enough of it for 5 days and came out good as new. I personally have never liked speed, however if this claim is true it could be very helpful. Since I spoke to him I kind of pushed it off as nonsense. Until 4 days ago, a friend who hasn't done crack for about 15 yrs tried some. Since that day he has been buying a pack with his heroin daily because he said he's literally using about 1/3 of the amount of heroin he normally uses. So that would seem the first guy may be in to something. I know my friend very well and if he was just using 1/3 his normal he'd be puking. So the crack had to be doing something. I personally haven't used crack in over 20 yrs, and again only used speed a couple times. So both would be low tolerance. Has anyone else used a similar method? I just can't see how any of that can stop the withdrawal. For me it comes on very heavy at this point, don't want to say what my dailys are, but high is an understatement. 12 hrs I feel like crap, 18 hrs I have the double vision and heavy head really bad. 24 hrs I'm nauseous, limbs feel like they weight a ton, by 36 hrs I'm violently puking. Depending on how I was eating, I sometimes also have diarrhea. The vomit is the number 1 for me, plus the pain since I started using after leaving a pain clinic. I've had 13 back surgeries. Still I'll deal with the pain for a clean slate. I just really need to get through those 5 days of vomitting in a better state. The best I've made it in the last 9 years is to day 4. And could take it anymore. And FYI Suboxone for some reason doesn't work with me. I have tried many times with the doctors help at the clinic to do induction . We tried 2 hr intervals each time. So we took the first at 8 hrs, then next time 10 hrs, and so on up to 48 hrs and each time it makes me way sicker than I already was. It also adds an insane body anxiety that I don't get without it. He said we may have to try methadone, but the daily dose at the clinic really turns me off. Sorry for such a long post, but if this is truly a viable option is possibly a life saver, literally. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this, I hope to read you comments and experiences

 

[Opieguy12]

Yes this can work ..has worked for swim in the past nd am currently using crack to lower my dosage of H..started yesterday nd so far am doing half the dose of H as before...one keyy point it has to be good crack that makes yu feel calm and numb ..speedy stuff wud do more damage than good..but anytime swim needs to cut his dosage he usually turns to crack for a few days to help him out...again,,,MUST be good stuff!

 

[JTemperance]

This is a time-honored junkie tradition going back many decades, but I do think there's something to it.

I've seen a few detox regimens from respected doctors that include conservative doses of one stimulant or another (methylphenidate, dextroamphetamine, modafinil) for at least some portion of the kick, usually towards the end when the worst physical symptoms are over but lethargy and fatigue are an issue. So I think there's probably some objective basis for the cautious use of stimulants in people who can tolerate them without terrible anxiety or comedowns.

Personally, I have found that taking amphetamine in my medium-high range (~25mg d-amp) substantially reduces my withdrawal symptoms while it's working, provided I'm not in full-blown withdrawal, and improves my mood greatly. Since restlessness is already a problem, it sometimes feels better to just run with it. I also find it is good to pair with gabapentin/pregabalin, which greatly reduce withdrawal symptoms and also have a stimulating effect on me. It does tend to aggravate the diarrhea, though, so loperamide (in regular therapeutic doses) is necessary.

The comedown is, of course, more unpleasant than it would be outside of opiate withdrawal, but I haven't found it too unmanageable except when staying up for too long from the combination of withdrawal insomnia and amphetamine use. So avoiding the temptation to redose is crucial, I think. Personally, I wouldn't take more than a mild dose of any stimulant if I didn't have some kind of sedative drugs on hand -- at a minimum, clonidine (the classic withdrawal aid) plus the gabapentin/pregabalin mentioned above, but ideally a benzo as well. (It's also much more palatable if you are on some kind of opiate taper and take your main dose for the day during the comedown.)

Unfortunately, I've learned first-hand that it's all too easy to end up replacing the opiate addiction you are supposedly kicking with a new upper/downer habit that is even more of a problem, especially if you rediscover your taste for alcohol along the way.

It seems like cocaine/crack would be especially difficult to use for this purpose in a responsible way. Methamphetamine would probably be easier to control, but only if you take low doses (by mouth or nose) and don't spin yourself out too much, since IMO the emotional comedown is worse than with amphetamine/Adderall and it's longer-acting, so sleep deprivation and soul-crushing comedowns are more of a risk.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

This is a time-honored junkie tradition going back many decades, but I do think there's something to it.

I've seen a few detox regimens from respected doctors that include conservative doses of one stimulant or another (methylphenidate, dextroamphetamine, modafinil) for at least some portion of the kick, usually towards the end when the worst physical symptoms are over but lethargy and fatigue are an issue. So I think there's probably some objective basis for the cautious use of stimulants in people who can tolerate them without terrible anxiety or comedowns.

Personally, I have found that taking amphetamine in my medium-high range (~25mg d-amp) substantially reduces my withdrawal symptoms while it's working, provided I'm not in full-blown withdrawal, and improves my mood greatly. Since restlessness is already a problem, it sometimes feels better to just run with it. I also find it is good to pair with gabapentin/pregabalin, which greatly reduce withdrawal symptoms and also have a stimulating effect on me. It does tend to aggravate the diarrhea, though, so loperamide (in regular therapeutic doses) is necessary.

The comedown is, of course, more unpleasant than it would be outside of opiate withdrawal, but I haven't found it too unmanageable except when staying up for too long from the combination of withdrawal insomnia and amphetamine use. So avoiding the temptation to redose is crucial, I think. Personally, I wouldn't take more than a mild dose of any stimulant if I didn't have some kind of sedative drugs on hand -- at a minimum, clonidine (the classic withdrawal aid) plus the gabapentin/pregabalin mentioned above, but ideally a benzo as well. (It's also much more palatable if you are on some kind of opiate taper and take your main dose for the day during the comedown.)

Unfortunately, I've learned first-hand that it's all too easy to end up replacing the opiate addiction you are supposedly kicking with a new upper/downer habit that is even more of a problem, especially if you rediscover your taste for alcohol along the way.

It seems like cocaine/crack would be especially difficult to use for this purpose in a responsible way. Methamphetamine would probably be easier to control, but only if you take low doses (by mouth or nose) and don't spin yourself out too much, since IMO the emotional comedown is worse than with amphetamine/Adderall and it's longer-acting, so sleep deprivation and soul-crushing comedowns are more of a risk.

Also another problem with stim use is weight loss. You're already going to be struggling to eat from the withdrawal... make sure you force yourself to consume food lol. Otherwise, people will question why you lost 10 pounds in a week.

Your heart is already going to be stressed from the withdrawal symptoms. So I don't recommend coke/crack. I mean, I can't ever recommend crack though for anything. Lyrica/gabapentin DEF helps noticably. Cocaine affects the heart a lot more haphazardly than amphetamines. I believe because it causes the heart to pump more while restricting blood flow to the heart itself.

Honestly meth is highly addicting in its own right and some people struggle with that addiction more than heroin that's for sure. As long as you're not intending to replace one addiction for another (which addicts notoriously do), if you actually have discipline whatever helps pass the horrid times by. Stims during wd are a double edged sword. The crash is totally awful at some points unbearable, but the up makes things feel okay. You really just have to get past the first week.. of course symptoms last longer than that, but the horrible part is sooner than later.

I don't think it's HR to smoke a lot of meth to get past the withdrawal lol, I'm sorry I'm being a kill-joy.

 

[Erik b]

It all sound viable. First if I had amazing self control I wouldn't be a 15 yr addict. My saving grace there is I hate speed and always have. I've got to be honest and say in response to your comment about never being able to recommend crack, free baseing coke in any form is a much purer way to take cocaine. Yes it's more addictive, but you are also not getting all the crazy cuts that these idiots are dumping into the garbage they call coke these days. If I was buying from a person I don't have a great relationship with, I'd trust thier crack over their coke any day

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Smoking crack to reduce opiate consumption is pure junkie delusion.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

It all sound viable. First if I had amazing self control I wouldn't be a 15 yr addict. My saving grace there is I hate speed and always have. I've got to be honest and say in response to your comment about never being able to recommend crack, free baseing coke in any form is a much purer way to take cocaine. Yes it's more addictive, but you are also not getting all the crazy cuts that these idiots are dumping into the garbage they call coke these days. If I was buying from a person I don't have a great relationship with, I'd trust thier crack over their coke any day

Alright haha. I wasn't trying to be snarky at all though. It's just I've never met someone who smoked crack who didn't want to continue smoking alot more crack. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think meth is a better choice for getting past opiate withdrawal. The feeling has way longer legs while crack has such an obscenely short half life. I don't condone either crack/meth personally for anyone but if you're going to insist on using heavy stims I'd think that meth is a better option for this situation. Crack would force you to constantly redose to not feel the withdrawal and it'd be sooo much money.

All in all heroin is a beast and in my opinion it is the most addicting substance on the planet. However, I have to say that in order to overcome heroin addiction it takes a ton of trial and error and throwing yourself into misery. It's gonna take more self-control beyond just getting past the withdrawal to stop.

I myself used adderall to get out of a withdrawal. It got the job done and is less potent than these other stimulants--but it wasn't fun. Out of curiosity are you against things like suboxone, methadone, and vivitrol? It's important to have backup plans if you truly want to get clean off of heroin because it's ruining your life, because many people have exit strategies for opiates and it's all too easy to just return back to being a daily user.

 

[Opieguy12]

Yeh i see everyone has their own personal opinion bc all this stuff effects each nd everyone of us different..trial and error is really the only true anwser..and @ GetMeOut suboxone is great..iv always kept myself lower then 4mg and then worked my way down to 1mg nd then to just a tiny piece every other day but its very easy to be on that for years too so if your thinking about subs make sure yu have a plan ahead of time that you progressively lower your dose..o and methadone is a nightmare! Imo dont do it

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

When you're addicted to all drugs, then they can become somewhat interchangeable. Polydrug addiction is both a curse and a blessing...

 

[Xorkoth]

I find that using reasonable doses of amphetamine or propylhexedrine when I'm in withdrawal can take the edge off, probably because it increases dopamine and makes you feel good so it offsets some of the negative mood. But it also seems to make me feel more relaxed. However using other drugs to substitute for opiates is a slippery slope because it's really easy to trade one addiction for another.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I find that using reasonable doses of amphetamine or propylhexedrine when I'm in withdrawal can take the edge off, probably because it increases dopamine and makes you feel good so it offsets some of the negative mood. But it also seems to make me feel more relaxed. However using other drugs to substitute for opiates is a slippery slope because it's really easy to trade one addiction for another.

I regularly used to take amphetamines to negate withdrawal symptoms in the early stages of my addiction. Unfortunately, it's not sustainable and eventually makes the situation worse rather than better...

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Yeh i see everyone has their own personal opinion bc all this stuff effects each nd everyone of us different..trial and error is really the only true anwser..and @ GetMeOut suboxone is great..iv always kept myself lower then 4mg and then worked my way down to 1mg nd then to just a tiny piece every other day but its very easy to be on that for years too so if your thinking about subs make sure yu have a plan ahead of time that you progressively lower your dose..o and methadone is a nightmare! Imo dont do it

Yes I agree! Suboxone is the greatest development for opiate addiction treatment that they've come out with in my opinion.

At the end of the day if you can't quit opiates after a million attempts it's necessary to face yourself and admit that you need suboxone/methadone. If heroin is consuming your life I think it's time to take the step. Being on suboxone for a decade is far better than repeatedly spending your days in a garage IV'ing heroin--let's be real. Not that subs are a cure-all treatment plan but it's saved way more lives than destroyed them. Methadone has saved as many lives as wrecked them iirc, but some swear by that too.

Ok OP--let's say your plan works. You abuse stims to not feel withdrawal. Staying clean from opiates is half the battle if not far more. What will you do if you relapse? You'll be going through the cycle repeatedly which will inevitably wear you down physically/mentally. I'd expect a whole lot of depression from this vicious process of relapsing/stimulant use alteration. This could work one time provided you don't relapse, but with heroin having such an absurdly high relapse rate I can't see it holding through for your entire life.

While addiction is indeed physical in many aspects, I'd say 80% of the trap is mental. It takes a lot of internal soul searching to get past and failure is inevitable and to be expected from most addicts. There are no quick fixes and many don't want to hear that. You did not get to the place you're in overnight, and you won't get out of it overnight. I just feel like it's going to be a tough battle and that's something no one can avoid. If this plan fails please look into suboxone I do not mean any offense or criticism from this post.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Doesn’t a lot of the evidence suggest that opiate relape is predominently determined by context and triggers?

During the vietnam war apparently 15 % of US soldiers were addicted to opiates but as they were returned home only around 5 % relapsed and continued use. The rest went cold turkey and a lot of people believe (i have no clue myself) that physical withdrawal is overstated (often by addicts wanting more drugs).

of course, the context and triggers are far more pervasive today and harder to avoid than they were in the 1970s for the GI’s.

avoiding opiate relapse is possibly about changing other things in life besides drug of abuse.

then again I’ve never been into opiates so i have no real insight - just what i read (and heard in rehab)

 

[JTemperance]

Doesn’t a lot of the evidence suggest that opiate relape is predominently determined by context and triggers?

During the vietnam war apparently 15 % of US soldiers were addicted to opiates but as they were returned home only around 5 % relapsed and continued use. The rest went cold turkey and a lot of people believe (i have no clue myself) that physical withdrawal is overstated (often by addicts wanting more drugs).

of course, the context and triggers are far more pervasive today and harder to avoid than they were in the 1970s for the GI’s.

avoiding opiate relapse is possibly about changing other things in life besides drug of abuse.

then again I’ve never been into opiates so i have no real insight - just what i read (and heard in rehab)

Yes. And unsurprisingly, the GIs likeliest to resume heroin use in the US were those from neighborhoods with high unemployment, limited social mobility, and a saturated drug market (i.e. "the ghetto" in the early 70s). The relative inaccessability of the drugs combined with a return to mainstream American norms and the stabilizing influence of family/community/career meant that most veterans returning to Middle America could leave behind a behavior (or "addiction") that made perfect sense in the context of the war, once the withdrawal was completed.

We might question how many parts of the US (or other countries) have the same confluence of factors that Middle America circa 1971 did... there aren't quite as many places where drugs are unavailable or even uncommon, or where well-paying jobs with long-term futures are readily available to high-school graduates, or where community cohesion is tight and a stable family structure is the norm.

 

[Nagelfar]

Lots of people have succeeded at this. I am not one of them. But yes many have told me this has worked for them. Then again I've never had 5 days worth, but enough no matter how much for me to need to take an opioid to avoid the crash instead.

 

[WellTram]

I always found that low dose of stims (idealy modafinil or amphetamine/meth) helped a lot with cravings, depressions and even physical pain. But i was also using comfort medicatication ( benzodiazepines, weed, DXM, sometimes low dose 1st gen. antihistamine or low dose sedating antipsychotic ( mostly quetiapine or chlorprothixene). Stims for mood etc., benzos for stim side effects and to lower body temperature during wd, weed to help eat and sleep and H1 antagonists or low dose antipsychotics for the most difficult insomnia periods.

 

[InTheStarsMan]

I can confirm this helps. I don't use anymore, but when I did and I was running low on money, a bag of ice was easier to get at a low price, and it required much less H to get through to the next dose.

 

[inzn]

Smoking crack to reduce opiate consumption is pure junkie delusion.

So tru hahaha, I always end up doing both.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Doesn’t a lot of the evidence suggest that opiate relape is predominently determined by context and triggers?

During the vietnam war apparently 15 % of US soldiers were addicted to opiates but as they were returned home only around 5 % relapsed and continued use. The rest went cold turkey and a lot of people believe (i have no clue myself) that physical withdrawal is overstated (often by addicts wanting more drugs).

of course, the context and triggers are far more pervasive today and harder to avoid than they were in the 1970s for the GI’s.

avoiding opiate relapse is possibly about changing other things in life besides drug of abuse.

then again I’ve never been into opiates so i have no real insight - just what i read (and heard in rehab)

It is dependent on other factors, but opiate relapse inevitably happens and a lot even for people who don't experience any triggers. The cravings never really stop even after you get past withdrawal, and the longer you go without them the more the feeling is glorified by your mind and in a way with suddenly lowered tolernace it tortures you that you know the euphoria would come back.

Sometimes relapsing is part of the process. It can be a good thing as long as you don't overdose because you get a break from the withdrawal and realize that it's not as good as you thought it would be. I have never heard of anyone who quit opiates who did not relapse unless they completely lost access. You will do crazy things to score again--like cross state boarders and sell possessions that aren't even yours. Not speaking from personal experience but just based on what I've seen. And junkies are the best liars. Sometimes you can't even notice the signs of addiction because they are so good at hiding them and a junkie using/sober sometimes appears exactly the same. The urge to use runs deep, as evidently seen by the amount of people struggling to permanently get off opiates. People struggle quitting opiates more than anything I've ever seen. No other drug kills anxiety, delivers euphoria, prevents mental and physical pain while enabling you to sleep. There are so many positive attributes of opiates that the user must learn to cope without all those key points. It's hard. Very hard lol

 

[Xorkoth]

a lot of people believe (i have no clue myself) that physical withdrawal is overstated (often by addicts wanting more drugs).

Opiate withdrawal from a heavy habit are horrific, you don't know until you know. Physically every moment is torture, and mentally everything feels like it's stained and hopeless forever. Anxiety and depression are out of control. They are not overstated, though the uncontrollable thought that you could just get some more and make it go away is a very difficult aspect.

avoiding opiate relapse is possibly about changing other things in life besides drug of abuse.

This is absolutely true. You need to change your life, otherwise you will likely just relapse. Fill your time with healthy activities that make you feel fulfilled, remove any painful aspects of your life if possible, and EXERCISE DAILY.