Phenethylamines The safety (or lack therof) of DOX chemicals discussion thread

[jammin83]

Yeah, we know about that steamboat. I'm not trying to parade around and say I love DOx, I'm not. I don't even particularly care for phens. Mucho body load, nausea, etc. I like lsd and that's about it. I really don't even care for psych drugs too much anymore tbh. Too much madness, there was a time, but whatever. That person took so much DOC that it should have killed them. They took like 125 mg or something. Thats only 100x a normal dose.

I'm not trying to misrepresent the data. You take 1 g of Dmt, or 100 hits of acid, 1 g of dpt, you're gonna have a bad time whether you die or not.

Lets put our bias aside and look at this objectively. You have some issues that cloud your judgement on these chems. I'm not saying they are safe, but for the average healthy adult, the data suggests that they aren't as dangerous as nbomes just in deaths alone.

I appreciate what you do and I appreciate your posts, I know you only care about hr. But let's keep things in context.

 

[Nexus_Tripper]

Steamboat is lying. DOx (and the DOx-FLYs or DFLYs) is perfectly safe.

 

[Xorkoth]

Steamboat is lying. DOx (and the DOx-FLYs or DFLYs) is perfectly safe.

I wouldn't say he's lying... I'd say he's misinterpreting the severity of the dangers based on the evidence.

But I'd also say that the DOX-dragonflys are certainly not perfectly safe. At least we have established, in mind, that DOB-dragonfly is far from safe. The level of vasoconstriction caused by that one is sketchy at best, and there have been multiple deaths because of it. It appears to be dangerous at levels much closer to a recreational dosage than DOB, DOC, DOI, DOM, etc. Is it safer than NBOMes? Probably. I still wouldn't recommend it to people.

Nor are the standard DOXs perfectly safe... there's more risk involved than with, say, 2C-E, or LSD, or tryptamines. But with responsible dosing, these risks are minimal enough. Clearly there exist some cases of individuals who will have an adverse reaction to them. That's why starting very low and titrating slowly up is always a good idea, rather than jumping in at a full dosage, in case you're one of those people.

 

[Solipsis]

Correlation should not be confused with causation. I see a pattern like many of you in this thread, but it's tricky to draw conclusions at this point, especially when considering them conclusive. The last thing we want to do is try and predict the safety margin for existing or yet to surface potent psychedelics instead of looking at the anecdotal evidence. Of course we want to get a grip on this psychologically just like we always want the SAR to make sense to us... but assumptions can be dangerous, they appear helpful but are not when premature.

That said, the best explanation I agree for NBOMe toxicity is agonism of a receptor subtype like 5HT2A (which was considered so safe and put on a pedestal), when unbalanced or unattenuated by activity of other related subtypes. Perhaps there lies the answer for treatment of cases of acute toxicity: if selective antagonism of 5HT2A is not an option when the NBOMe has too high affinity, perhaps stimulating 1A and/or 2C may offer enough balance to prevent unilateral overstimulation.
Then again, who/when will that be researched? Will animal models help?

These are just suspicions of mine, or ones I share with others - and have no real bearing. Admit when the actual evidence is lacking.

Lumping DOX together with NBOMe's is unhelpful and unfounded IMO. Try not to have such a black and white view of these matters. There is a gradient of varying therapeutic indices across the board. Some psychedelics are more safe than others, and potential toxicity mechanisms probably differ. Vasoconstriction, secondary rhabdo, seizure activity, hypertensive crisis / serotonin storm, MAO inhibition issues and fucking up the liver or kidney are a very wide array of adverse effects on the body, systemic but all over the place.

Look at each psychedelic individually, perhaps grouping together ones that share so many similarities as to make the differences insignificant... weigh the prevalence + history of use of the drug against the reported toxicities / hospitalizations and fatalities, check if the most important health risks are especially contraindicated with you personally, and start low enough the first time or times.

I think that responsible and correct NBOMe use is actually probably not that unsafe, but a problem is that widespread availability as LSD replacement leads to random fools using these drugs irresponsibly and incorrectly. And the potency and/or the fact that the amount of the drug in a piece of blotter cannot be measured easily like a pure less potent powder... all that increases risks to make them rather unacceptable even if NBOMe compounds are not equally intrinsically unsafe.
DOX are just that order of magnitude less potent which can make a difference.

Also, it appears that high affinity 5HT2A agonists can cause very rapid HPPD type problems in susceptible persons, and also cause tolerance to skyrocket. Again DOX appear to be less extreme on those fronts.

Even if I am not really afraid of dying from trying more NBOMe's again, I simply don't trust how quickly and deeply brain chemistry seems to be affected.

 

[momjrr]

Does anyone have an idea of how big a dose of DOM would be considered risky?


I'm having trouble finding reports of any issues or deaths from it. I have a good amount of it that I've been ignoring for too long and would love to get back to it. I'm only worried at all because of the scaremongering in this thread, I'm not willing to risk my life on this stuff.

Anecdotally, and probably means nothing at all, it doesn't "feel" at all unsafe. Compared to nBOME's where a lot of reports read along the lines of "I thought I was going to die, my heart was going to explode" etc.

 

[Nexus_Tripper]

Does anyone have an idea of how big a dose of DOM would be considered risky?


I'm having trouble finding reports of any issues or deaths from it. I have a good amount of it that I've been ignoring for too long and would love to get back to it. I'm only worried at all because of the scaremongering in this thread, I'm not willing to risk my life on this stuff.

Anecdotally, and probably means nothing at all, it doesn't "feel" at all unsafe. Compared to nBOME's where a lot of reports read along the lines of "I thought I was going to die, my heart was going to explode" etc.

In the 60s, 20mg pills were available. People took multiple and did not have physical complications.
Read this post I made a while ago:
The only DOx chemicals that have caused fatalities are the Halo-DOxes (DOC, DOB, DOI) and these fatalities have occurred at over TWENTY times a normal dose. Some DOxes (and not even all DOxes; alkyl DOxes have no deaths that I am aware of) only become dangerous to idiots. I bet you if someone took twenty grams or more of mescalin they would have very serious, possibly deadly complications. Halo-DOxes are as safe as mescalin. Alkyl DOxes are even safer. I've take massive doses of DOM and DOEt before (100mg+) and had no problems. There were tablets of DOM in the 60s that had 20mg EACH. Some people would take 3+ tabs and even then they had no physical issues.

 

[Peacephrog1972]

Again, please link us a trip report of your proprted 100mg DOM trip!?!

After reading that entry by Sasha is there anyway to remove the "S" isomer of DOM like he talked about?

This substance sounds dubious at best....heaven and hell all wrapped up in one

 

[Xorkoth]

Shuglin reported on 12mg and below. He claimed that 12mg gave tremors that were considered signs of overdose. He also discussed people in the 60s surviving doses probably more than 20mg. PIHKAL: DOM entry

Depends on what you consider risky.

Yeah the "STP" tabs going around were dosed at 20mg each, an absolutely insane dose. People were used to LSD and they'd take one, not feel it after an hour, and take 1 or 2 more. No deaths were reported, though there were certainly freak-outs.

Personally I took 10mg of DOM and found it underwhelming, though I was in a place where I had some built-up tolerance at the time. Contrast that with DOC where my favorite dose is 3mg though, even at the time, which is pretty standard. DOM felt extremely light on my body, kind of LSD-like in that way.

 

[Help?!?!]

I already got him to admit he's biased in his views in another thread. To me it's done.. It's just scare mongering which we don't need. As long as you follow the dosing DOx's have been proved safe. He's just on a triade, which isn't bad, but it's not good!

 

[IamMe90]

I had the same experience with 10mg DOM, although no prior tolerance. 250ug insufflated 25c shot the trip into the stratosphere in a most excellent way, though.

 

[rave23]

I find NBOMEs somewhat troubling, since the effect comes on sudden and strong.

about 30 minutes of waiting, then suddenly, over the course of 2 to 3 minutes, you're lit the hell up. Maybe this subjective short onset has something to do with it's side effects.

DOx type compounds usually come on much more slowly and gradually, giving your body much more time to adjust.

Keep in mind, these are my subjective experiences. Coming up on an NBOME trip is sort of physically and mentally traumatizing due to the extreme onset of action.

With pharmaceuticals, i usually found there to be a relationship between onset and duration of action that has an effect on how safe and tolerable a certain drug is. Typically the slow and long acting compounds are much more easily digestible than those that come on rapidly and have a shorter duration.

I can't completely validate this however, because of my experiences with DMT. DMT when vaporized comes on in seconds, and is over in less than half an hour. It is an extremely mentally taxing endeavour, but i have yet to have any physically ill effects. Who knows, just theorizing about stuff i guess.

is there anyway to remove the "S" isomer of DOM like he talked about?

why yes, of course there is. You're going to need a well equipped laboratory and an extensive background in organic chemistry, but sure, it can be done.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Well interesting read. I'm not much concerned about the safety of normal doses of DOX's though I feel we should not turn a blind eye to whatever dangers however remote, unlikely or idiosyncratic. Or even if only heroic users are under the threat.
I tried to read the whole thread but there was some heated arguing that I always try to skip. So forgive me if the info is already here.
So I understand the danger here is vasoconstriction. Anybody knows what will be first alert of such thing and if there is a treatment for it? I'm thinking in some kind of medication that taken in time could reverse the symptoms. Though I don't know if such thing exists. If it does I would feel safer having it close just in case.
One question more: Is vasoconstriction the danger in NBOME's too? (And I'm not saying they are equally risky)

Really hope that doesn't ignite the flame as I think all points got clearly represented.

 

[Xorkoth]

The NBOMes seem to cause increased body temperature as a danger, but I think it's poorly understood what exactly caused the deaths from them.

As for DOX vasoconstriction, at reasonable dosages it's not going to be dangerous, but it can be unpleasant occasionally, especially if you're cold. L-arginine dilates blood vessels so it's a good thing to preload on.

 

[Incunabula]

Well interesting read. I'm not much concerned about the safety of normal doses of DOX's though I feel we should not turn a blind eye to whatever dangers however remote, unlikely or idiosyncratic. Or even if only heroic users are under the threat.
I tried to read the whole thread but there was some heated arguing that I always try to skip. So forgive me if the info is already here.
So I understand the danger here is vasoconstriction. Anybody knows what will be first alert of such thing and if there is a treatment for it? I'm thinking in some kind of medication that taken in time could reverse the symptoms. Though I don't know if such thing exists. If it does I would feel safer having it close just in case.
One question more: Is vasoconstriction the danger in NBOME's too? (And I'm not saying they are equally risky)

Really hope that doesn't ignite the flame as I think all points got clearly represented.

Against acute severe vasoconstriction, I think something like Tolazoline would be first line treatment. If you worry alot about vasocontriction, then it's probably a good idea to have a couple of them in your stash.

Otherwise vitamin B3, aka niacin, is known to be a vasodilator in high doses. Also cayenne pepper and chili are purported to be vasodilators too. I guess it can't hurt to preload with cayenne pepper in capsules before tripping.

Ethanol (alcohol) is a vasodilator, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to get drunk to counter vasoconstriction.

PDE5 inhibitors like Viagra are vasodillators. If it's all you have, it's for sure better than nothing.

As Xorkoth said, the the full mechanisms behind NBOMe death's aren't fully understood, but it seems that seriously aggressive seizures are always envolved. Also, I don't think anybody ever lost a limb to NBOMe's - they just die.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Thanks to both.

I might preload with cayenne as it is something really common in my country. It seems everything spicy has some vasodilator properties.
And Tolazoline really sounds like something I'd like to have in my stash. Though in wikipedia it says it has been used in conjunction with Sodium nitroprusside as an antidote to reverse the vasoconstriction caused by 25i-NBOMe, DOB or Bromodragonfly. So it might not be enough by itself.

 

[Incunabula]

I'm not a doctor, but I think that tolazoline is efficacious enough by itself. Co-administration with Sodium nitroprusside is probably for acute severe cases. I know of at least one RC vendor, that also stocks tolazoline.

But to be fair, with regular sensible doses of DOx's you really don't have to worry.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

This was no later than 7pm when a specialist doctor came in to see me. By this point I was in a hospital gown, with a catheter in, hooked up to roughly 5 IV lines, and breathing with assistance of an oxygen mask. I told the doctor I had likely overdosed on a research chmical which caused tremendous vasoconstriction. I directed them to my jeans I had worn in to the ER in which I had written down the chemical formula of the drug I feared caused the bulk of the damage.

DOC - 2,5-dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetamine

They had never heard of this before ever. They literally printed out the wikipedia page...

I was informed that my arteries and veins in my feet had collapsed on themselves. There was absolutely no detectable blood flow from my ankle down and very very little bloodflow from the knee to the ankle.

They werent sure what to do and it was becoming late so I was left in ICU overnight.

Between monday may 18th and tuesday may 19th my feet became exceedingly black from the toe to the ankle and the doctors feared the worst. I was finally convinced to notify my family by this point. After 48 hours of being in the intensive care unit.

My family is very religious and very much against drugs so I was much too embarrassed to call them prior...

By tuesday, I had nearly 15 IV lines in my arms pumping me full of every vasodilator, blood thinner, and whatever else they thought might save my feet. I was in incredible pain. Really starting to fear the worst now the specialist came in and told me nothing in the IV's was working, my veins and arteries were too far collapsed, and it was very unlikely my feet could be saved. By this point my calfs had become very swollen and bruised looking. I was developing compartment syndrome. My legs were filling with blood meant to go to my feet.

On Thursday May 21st, an emergency faschiotomy was performed on both legs to release the pressure and blood buildup. The surgery left me with 4 faschiotomy wounds, 1 on either side of my calf, on both legs. I was put back into ICU and was kept alive via 15 IV lines and an oxygen mask. I was continuously dosed with IV fentanyl for the pain for many days, closer to a week.

On Saturday May 23rd, I awoke in ICU to find my surgeon looking at my legs... He informed me the fashiotomy had not released enough pressure, the blood was continuing to build up, and I was scheduled for amputation of both legs from the knee down. The amputation would take place Monday May 25th at 11am. I cried all day the next two days..

Awaking from my fentanyl induced coma on monday, the day of my amputation. I was more than plesently surprised my the surgeon with good news. Sometime over the previous two days, my veins and arteries had shown improvement, and my amputation was cacelled in favour of increased drug intake to try and once again save my feet.

A miracle too place that night. The next morning I awoke with feeling in my feet and ability to wiggle my toes. The doctors were no word of a lie astounded and told me it didnt seem possible. They could not pinpoint what drug was doing the trick because they had given me over 55 different drugs via IV... They said they literally through the book at me. Dumbfounded how I had managed to improve, they told me my calfs had regained bloodflow almost overnight, and a small pulse was noted in my feet.

I looked at the above DOC overdose report on the Shroomery and the summary mentioned they didn't determine if any of the medications were effective. Perhaps time caused the recovery. The topic is large and reviewing the complete topic could provide extra details we could include here.

Another user on Bluelight(treey z) was hospitalized with extreme vasoconstriction from consuming an eyeballed dose of ~4mg. The exact dose is unknown. Perhaps they could elaborate on the medical treatment they received there.

Compiling this is useful. Having accurate information on Bluelight is important. Often Emergency Room doctors reference Bluelight and Erowid in situations toxicological information on the chemical is sparse in medical journals.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I'm not a doctor, but I think that tolazoline is efficacious enough by itself. Co-administration with Sodium nitroprusside is probably for acute severe cases. I know of at least one RC vendor, that also stocks tolazoline.

But to be fair, with regular sensible doses of DOx's you really don't have to worry.

I know with regular sensible doses I probably won't have to bother. Just thought the info should be known, just trying to save some limbs in here
Even in sensible dosage I suppose it could cut some uncomfortable side effects (I'm quite prone to them with all kinds of compounds)...And maybe one day I feel like going into the borders of the sensible to look at the other side. Probably not. But I've got a lifetime supply so who knows.

Thanks again.

 

[cj187]

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