Phenethylamines The safety (or lack therof) of DOX chemicals discussion thread

[SteamboatBillJr]

Perhaps it's because DOC has a reputation for a remarkable body buzz and mostly lacking in body load.

Excluding if you accidentally overdose and your limbs necrotize and get amputated. I imagine your peripheral tissue rotting probably qualifies as an unpleasant body load. Regarding safety DOC and AL-LAD aren't similar at all.

 

[ecstacylover]

I don't see why your out to demonize DOC. It seems totally safe at normal doses. The problem arises when people who don't know how to correctly and safely handle it are preparing doses for themselves. If someone had AL-LAD powder and took 10 mg by accident who knows what would happen. It goes without saying that idiots shouldn't be playing around with RC's, especially those active in the ųg range.

 

[ebola?]

Excluding if you accidentally overdose [on DOC] and your limbs necrotize and get amputated.

This hasn't really been much of an issue with DOC (at least as documented, even anecdotally), though due to similar concerns, I wouldn't push any DOx into heroic dose territory.

ebola

 

[SteamboatBillJr]

This hasn't really been much of an issue with DOC (at least as documented, even anecdotally), though due to similar concerns, I wouldn't push any DOx into heroic dose territory.

ebola

A person on the Shroomery overdosed on DOC recently. They almost died.

You took an abnormally high dose and DOC overdose is fatal. Show caution. LSD and mushrooms are much safer than DOC.

We haven't discovered exactly how much DOC is harmful. DOC has the same mechanism of action (highly selective 5HT2 agonist) as NBOMe drugs. With NBOMe drugs fatalities occasionally occur spontaneously at normal doses. These pictures show the effects of an extreme overdose of DOC.

This person survived with intensive medical intervention. Others died from less. Other psychedelics are safer. Show caution.

I think this evidence is beyond anecdotal. My opinion remains this chemical is as dangerous as other chemicals with similar mechanisms of action (hyper selective 5HT2 agonist). Reports of multiple fatalities exist in the medical literature. We have fewer reports of adverse reactions than 25I-NBOMe because fewer people consume DOC.

We could discuss this further in the DOC thread.

 

[Xorkoth]

The account you posted pictures of was with someone taking roughly 100mg of DOC though... a very, very far cry from recreational doses. On the other hand, the NBOMes (especially 25i) have caused fatalities at normal recreational dosages. I think given this information, saying that DOC/DOX are as dangerous as NBOMes is a pretty big stretch. I appreciate you showing caution, and indeed, I would say that DOXs are more dangerous than, say, LSD or tryptamines. But I know of no deaths or hospitalizations (other than cases where people panic and go to the hospital which happens on all psychedelics and even marijuana) from normal recreational doses; if you know of some, could you link to them?

The accidental overdose in the case you're referencing happened as a result of someone blacking out on benzos and taking 100mg of their DOC. This could happen with anything, it's not as simple as, "oh man, I accidentally took a little too much, now I'm going to lose limbs or die". And yes, I realize there are psychedelics that wouldn't cause this even in a massive overdose, but that shouldn't stop someone from taking a reasonable dose of something like DOC, just because it's more dangerous when overdosed than mushrooms or LSD.

 

[SteamboatBillJr]

None of the medical journals give the dosages taken. Usually the toxicology is done after the user died. If you're interested, I could link those in the main thread.

I think the toxic dose is much lower than 100mg. This user probably reached neuronal saturation. This chemicals mechanism of action is the same as 25i-NBOMe (hyper selective 5HT2 agonist). This suggests whatever causes the spontaneous deaths with 25I-NBOMe could cause complications with DOC too.

How many adverse reactions and deaths are required until we choose safer chemicals? My life is worth the extra few dollars. I choose safer chemicals than DOX.

 

[Xorkoth]

I commend you for your choice. However I have used DOC a great many times and have never had a problem with it nor do I know anyone who has.

I'm sure the toxic dosage is far less than 100mg. However I'm also sure it's significantly more than, say, 3mg. It worries me when I hear of people taking 10, 12, 15mg of DOC, I would never do it. If I did, then I'd say I was doing something dangerous and the drug could likely hurt me. But since I don't, I don't believe that DOC is ever likely to hurt me.

 

[ecstacylover]

If you choose not to use DOC that's up to you. However, I'd bet the vast majority of people that use it are responsible enough to never run into a health issue with it. If you want to preach harm reduction there are threads for other drugs where you could make much more of a difference. So until you have something meaningful to add please stop cluttering up the beautiful DOM thread with grotesque images.

 

[AA357]

I was finally able to acquire DOM, now I just have to find the time to take it. I'm torn between trying a threshold dose as a day enhancer or taking 3-4 mg (leaning towards 3) to start with. I have a decent amount so I'm not worried about running out before getting up to the higher doses.

Honestly, after reading this thread through again I can't say I see myself pushing this above 7-8 mg. I say that despite loving amphetamines and taking them rather often. In the past I have even combined other phenethylamines with my usual dose of lisdexamphetamine to decent success so the speedy mindset is not too intimidating to me at lower doses. It just seems that DOM reveals it's whole character at doses of 7-8 mg and even lower, so it doesn't seem necessary to push higher and risk the side-effects for very little marginal gain.

Trying DOM, regardless of how I end up feeling about it, will surely expedite my search for DOC. Which for some reason I suspect will remind me of AL-LAD which I absolutely adore. Perhaps it's because DOC has a reputation for a remarkable body buzz and mostly lacking in body load. Perhaps that is not a good comparison though, as DOC can probably get heavy much quicker than AL-LAD.

DOM is only an amphetamine structurally. It doesn't behave anything like an amphetamine in the body... in terms of pharmacology it's a straight-up, classical 5HT psychedelic. LSD feels way more 'speedy' than DOM.

None of the medical journals give the dosages taken. Usually the toxicology is done after the user died. If you're interested, I could link those in the main thread.

I think the toxic dose is much lower than 100mg. This user probably reached neuronal saturation. This chemicals mechanism of action is the same as 25i-NBOMe (hyper selective 5HT2 agonist). This suggests whatever causes the spontaneous deaths with 25I-NBOMe could cause complications with DOC too.

How many adverse reactions and deaths are required until we choose safer chemicals? My life is worth the extra few dollars. I choose safer chemicals than DOX.

NBOMes are way more toxic than DOx - they are not even comparable.
DOx do have a lower OD threshold then most other psychedelics but still; you'd have to take a pretty ridiculous amount to harm yourself.

Don't quote me on this, but I think the DOx chems produce a huge tolerance for many others that hit the 5ht2a receptors.

I think about a week, more or less a day or two, should be good. Of course, though it doesn't seem to be that popular here, smoking some herb should help for those off days and also for increasing the strength of the trips. They're nice boosters imo.

TBH I never noticed that. I once tripped on DOM 3 days in a row with absolutely no noticeable decline in effects. Same goes for 2C-E... I get bored of taking it before I develop a tolerance.
For me, LSD seems to the the worst one for tolerance - I need about a week in between trips if I want to get the most out of it.

 

[SteamboatBillJr]

NBOMes are way more toxic than DOx - they are not even comparable.
DOx do have a lower OD threshold then most other psychedelics but still; you'd have to take a pretty ridiculous amount to harm yourself.

You can't prove this. Go back and look at the images on the previous page.

I suggested DOX chemicals had considerable toxicity in the past. I supported this with documentation of multiple previous fatalities and the fact other hyper selective 5HT2a agonist produce fatalities frequently. I was told I was fear mongering. Go back and look at the images on the previous page. This supports my theory on these dangers.

Yet, even after this new evidence of the toxicity of DOX chemicals several accounts continue claiming these chemicals posses greater safety than they have. I can't figure out why people continue advocating harmful chemicals as safe. Regardless those people exist among us.

Proper harm reduction is our responsibility. On the occasions people overdose following misinformation, government sources disseminate this information distracting from what is the real problem. This misinformation further perpetuates the failed War On Drugs. Better and safer alternatives exist than NBOMe and DOX chemicals. We should show caution and advocate safer chemicals. Claiming DOX chemicals are safe is destructive misinformation.

 

[Nexus_Tripper]

You can't prove this. Go back and look at the images on the previous page.

I suggested DOX chemicals had considerable toxicity in the past. I supported this with documentation of multiple previous fatalities and the fact other hyper selective 5HT2a agonist produce fatalities frequently. I was told I was fear mongering. Go back and look at the images on the previous page. This supports my theory on these dangers.

Yet, even after this new evidence of the toxicity of DOX chemicals several accounts continue claiming these chemicals posses greater safety than they have. I can't figure out why people continue advocating harmful chemicals as safe. Regardless those people exist among us.

Proper harm reduction is our responsibility. On the occasions people overdose following misinformation, government sources disseminate this information distracting from what is the real problem. This misinformation further perpetuates the failed War On Drugs. Better and safer alternatives exist than NBOMe and DOX chemicals. We should show caution and advocate safer chemicals. Claiming DOX chemicals are safe is destructive misinformation.

When used properly, DOxes are safe. You are the one spreading misinformation.

 

[Toltec]

I agree ^ People are taking a big risk to them-self by taking huge doses... beyond the recommended dose... and people not using a proper scale to weigh out there doses... it seems to always be the one person out of hundreds that ruin it for the responsible folks...

 

[roi]

The DOx series has been around for decades and appears to be fairly safe. Overdoses are obviously unpleasant and extremely long lasting, but at least you're very unlikely to die. Definitely much safer than N-benzyl substituted phenethylamines.

 

[Help?!?!]

the dox series has been around for decades and appears to be fairly safe. Overdoses are obviously unpleasant and extremely long lasting, but at least you're very unlikely to die. Definitely much safer than n-benzyl substituted phenethylamines.

qft!

 

[AA357]

Could you link me to a paper that shows DOM does not behave at all like an amphetamine in vivo? It just seems counterintuitive that it wouldn't in addition to all the anecdotal reports on here seeming to paint the picture that it has many subjective similarities to non-psychedelic amphetamines. A good amphetamine buzz fills me with a sense of contentment and gives me a clear head. If I'm speeding I took too much, at least that's how I feel.

I had a look but I can't find any studies showing any affinity for monoamine transporters. Looking at discussions on the topic, there is no reason to believe that DOx have any amphetamine-like properties in vivo (must be the 2,5-dimethoxy substitution). DOx are just 2C-x drugs with the addition of an alpha methyl group.

If you want a stimulating trip, go with LSD. It is an agonist at all dopamine receptor subtypes, which makes it very energizing.

As for the anecdotal reports:
1) 5HT receptor activation can feel stimulating.
2) Placebo effect. People know it's chemically an amphetamine so they're expecting to feel amphetamine-like effects.

You can't prove this. Go back and look at the images on the previous page.

I suggested DOX chemicals had considerable toxicity in the past. I supported this with documentation of multiple previous fatalities and the fact other hyper selective 5HT2a agonist produce fatalities frequently. I was told I was fear mongering. Go back and look at the images on the previous page. This supports my theory on these dangers.

Yet, even after this new evidence of the toxicity of DOX chemicals several accounts continue claiming these chemicals posses greater safety than they have. I can't figure out why people continue advocating harmful chemicals as safe. Regardless those people exist among us.

Proper harm reduction is our responsibility. On the occasions people overdose following misinformation, government sources disseminate this information distracting from what is the real problem. This misinformation further perpetuates the failed War On Drugs. Better and safer alternatives exist than NBOMe and DOX chemicals. We should show caution and advocate safer chemicals. Claiming DOX chemicals are safe is destructive misinformation.

So I guess mescaline and 2C-x drugs are also toxic and unfit for human consumption? Fuck out of here. 8)

NBOMes have an insanely low OD threshold (like <1mg) and have been known to kill/seriously injure people at typical doses.
DOx don't do this. Yes I saw those pictures you posted but apparently that guy took 100mg DOC. You do realize that Erowid lists 5mg as a strong dose? This dude took TWENTY times that amount.

 

[Xorkoth]

I honestly don't get how you developed such a strong negative view of the safety of DOXs, steamboatbill. I feel that you're way overblowing it. It's good to preach extreme caution when using very potent substances like DOXs, for sure, and people need to understand they're less safe than many other psychedelics. But to put them on the level with NBOMes, which have caused MANY more deaths and hospitalizations and which in some cases have done so at normal recreational dosages, seems ludicrous to me. Yes, it was terrible what happened to the guy who overdosed that you posted pictures of, but he took 20 times the dose that is considered very strong. It was an EXTREME overdose, and the result of this overdose is not indicative of the results of regular dosage levels.

Once again, I appreciate your caution and your good intentions towards harm reduction, but based on my extensive experience with various DOXs (DOC especially), and the evidence I have seen, they are certainly safe enough to enjoy responsibly. And they're really pretty top-notch psychedelics that do something different from any other psychedelics I've ever tried, so there is reason for someone to want to use them, it's not a pointless risk. If someone takes 3mg of DOC, I think the chance of a medical complication is as low as it would be with anything else, or at least in the same general percentage. They've been around for a long time and there haven't been many cases of health problems or deaths, and none that I'm aware of at all at normal recreational dosages. I bet if someone took 20 times the amount of a strong mescaline dosage that they'd die. Does that mean no one should take mescaline? You have to be more careful with measuring a DOX, for sure, but that just means you need to be responsible and smart about it, it doesn't mean no one should take them, ever.

 

[SteamboatBillJr]

What you miss is the variability in how people respond with hyper selective 5TH2A agonsits. Xorkoth, using what you take with your body chemistry is safe thus far (and possibly therapeutic). Some people report taking extreme doses of 25I-NBOMe (5mg+) frequently and everything balances out after the experience. Other people die from small doses. What is the difference?

I have consumed both 25I-NBOMe and DOC. Now, we don't know a lot about 25I-NBOMe's mechanism of toxicity. We have learned the mechanism of action is the same as DOC. Well, recently I took low doses of NBOMe drugs (<1mg) and had adverse reactions lasting days. MY blood pressure, pulse, and consciousness were unstable. I experienced the same adverse reaction with DOC.

Here's the odd thing. Some years back I took the same 25I-NBOMe frequently and things balanced out. What is the difference?

Well, when consuming larger doses of LSD things get weird a while. Regardless my body always tolerates the experience well.

Xorkoth currently you take DOC, other ways exist. I think we know of drugs with different side effects.

 

[terarc]

I've never tried a DOx but personally I found 2C-B to feel quite toxic, and not well tolerated by my body or mind, with lingering effects with what can only be described as a 'toxic' feeling lasting a very long time. I don't know anybody personally who doesn't agree with me, and those who've tried other 2C-X that I know say they feel the same about those too. I never had such feelings from psilocybin mushrooms, LSD or 4-AcO-DMT no matter how nasty the trip itself got, they always felt clean and well tolerated, with no lingering effects. Mescaline felt a teeny bit less tolerated than those but did not feel toxic like I found 2C-B. Obviously there is no scientific basis here and it's just my opinion, but all my IRL friends DO agree, and there is certainly not enough known about Shulgin's phen analogues to say for certain that they are 100% safe. I personally think it is irresponsible the way the online psychedelics community plays off the PiHKAL chemicals as being just as OK as the 'classic' psychedelics, when I was researching 2C-B I read nothing but comments saying 'oh yeah it's safe', but personally I kind of wish I'd have avoided it now.

 

[Peacephrog1972]

Nothing is 100% safe.....life is a gamble, every breath you take could be your last

 

[ebola?]

We have learned the mechanism of action is the same as DOC.

Have we? The relevant mechanism of toxicity has been postulated rather than confirmed, so we're stuck with a good bit of speculation, often restricted primarily to what we know from binding affinity assays alone. And Xorkoth's empirical observation about the track-record of DOxs stands. I would say that bromo-dragonfly provides an exception, but its mechanism of toxicity isn't well plotted out either (yes, we know it's vasoconstriction (so much is not entirely clear with nBOMe series compounds), but why is bromo-dragonfly uniquely dangerous in this respect?).

I don't know anybody personally who doesn't agree with me, and those who've tried other 2C-X that I know say they feel the same about those too.

Huh? I feel fine the next day (and thereafter) on every 2C series compound I've tried.

ebola