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Opioids The case of the frozen addicts

clubcard

Bluelighter
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Apr 12, 2013
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I thought this image of Barry Kidston might be of interest. I checked the patent and it's NOT -30°C but 30°C. Just cool, not especially cold. The original patent work was by Albert Ziering who, at the time of the MPP+ was still alive and confirmed that he made it properly and suffered no ill effects. Later, MPP+ became an item of commerce without special precautions and at least 2 chemists who made it for commerce developed Parkinson's Disease.

MPP+ was tested as a treatment for Parkinson's disease in the 1950s and only with the death of 2 of the 6 patients stopped them going further.

My worry is that ALL new chemicals, especially recent patents, are a real danger. Look back before the 1970s - at least a)it was likely tested on primates & b)the work is pretty open, not using the oldest lie - statistics.

It's only my opinion, the main thing is the image.
 

mareseatoats

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I thought this image of Barry Kidston might be of interest. I checked the patent and it's NOT -30°C but 30°C. Just cool, not especially cold. The original patent work was by Albert Ziering who, at the time of the MPP+ was still alive and confirmed that he made it properly and suffered no ill effects. Later, MPP+ became an item of commerce without special precautions and at least 2 chemists who made it for commerce developed Parkinson's Disease.

MPP+ was tested as a treatment for Parkinson's disease in the 1950s and only with the death of 2 of the 6 patients stopped them going further.

My worry is that ALL new chemicals, especially recent patents, are a real danger. Look back before the 1970s - at least a)it was likely tested on primates & b)the work is pretty open, not using the oldest lie - statistics.

It's only my opinion, the main thing is the image.
Creepiest photo I have seen all day.
 

sekio

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Tertiary benzylic alcohol in hot acidic conditions? Yeah I can see dehydration happening. Even at 30C.

Kidston was just another moron who shoves powders and pills into his face without verifying their identity. I guarantee he cut corners or got sloppy and that's why he ended up with Parkinsons. GC analysis would have saved his ass.

MPP+ was tested as a treatment for Parkinson's disease in the 1950s and only with the death of 2 of the 6 patients stopped them going further.
Similar compounds were already known as derivatives of paraquat, too.

My worry is that ALL new chemicals, especially recent patents, are a real danger.
Guns and drugs don't kill people, people do. MPPP is no danger to anyone but those who choose to ingest it. The same goes for any novel cannabinoids or whatever. If you wanna buy the ticket you get to take the ride.
 

lolwhatzdrugs

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The title of the thread is actually a documentary available on youtube. Pethidine just seems like among the most dangerous opioids, whether from impure synthesis to inducing serotonin syndrome. Never come across the stuff personally, but as mentioned, it's safe if you're not a fool.
 

Amphetafiendd

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I have had pethidine administered in a medic setting a handful of times to help combat intense migraine headaches when my tramadol doesnt even touch it or when I dont have a Maxalat wafer onhand to take at onset of the migraine.

The doctors concerns were serotonin syndrome but due to the pain he overlooked it aswell as my drug abuse history. I have been seeing this doctor for many years.
 

lolwhatzdrugs

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I have had pethidine administered in a medic setting a handful of times to help combat intense migraine headaches when my tramadol doesnt even touch it or when I dont have a Maxalat wafer onhand to take at onset of the migraine.

The doctors concerns were serotonin syndrome but due to the pain he overlooked it aswell as my drug abuse history. I have been seeing this doctor for many years.
In a medical setting when there is the opportunity to use a first line opioid like morphine, why would they ever overlook that possibility? Like if you were on SSRIs or the like that is just straight up stupid. Is it particularly used for migraines or something?
 

sailor bugg

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A lot of the designer drugs out now have their back bone in a known molecule but with a single atom or functional group replaced, I think that ='s a lot different then accidentally cooking up some MPP+ and needing L-Dopa to stave off parkinsons. A lot of these designer drugs were legit pharms at one time but were taken out of commission once the FDA approved more safer/less addicting alternatives to them. Like MDPV for example. And all the 2-Cx's are just mescaline with an atom changed on the carbon ring usually, I doubt the difference of say an iodine atom ( 2-ci) vs a hydroxyl group (mescaline) would be that detrimental to your health. Again I am no doctor, I know a lot about drugs and convey what I know but I mean if you're really concerned about something like this just stay away yea?
 

milagro

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The title of the thread is actually a documentary available on youtube. Pethidine just seems like among the most dangerous opioids, whether from impure synthesis to inducing serotonin syndrome. Never come across the stuff personally, but as mentioned, it's safe if you're not a fool.
I watched the documentary, if it is the same one, in a psychology class. Scary shit.
 
Last edited:

clubcard

Bluelighter
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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Tertiary benzylic alcohol in hot acidic conditions? Yeah I can see dehydration happening. Even at 30C.
Just quoting from the patent. The original patent is from 1942, the MPPP Wiki has the US patent on the basis that it's basically the same but in English. You may wish to compare with the synthesis of the prodine series. Maybe some IS produced but cleaned out but the -30°C figure comes from a misprint in the book of the same name.

Another interesting thing mentioned in the book was that Kidston abused LDOPA! Got to admire the crazy in that. He was swapped to something else (doesn't say what).



I've always had it in for esters. In this and many other cases, a nice bioisostere would be my preference.

Last little point - people are keen to point out it's not the drug but people using the drug. So does that apply to prescribed medication (like thalidomide)? More recently the COX2 inhibitors were shown to increase heart-attack and stroke.
 

JunkieDays

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IF I remember correctly, one of the addicts just got done robbing a house and was found frozen ontop of the gate he was trying to hop over. lol
 

Numb19

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In a medical setting when there is the opportunity to use a first line opioid like morphine, why would they ever overlook that possibility? Like if you were on SSRIs or the like that is just straight up stupid. Is it particularly used for migraines or something?
I was thinking the same thing. Why on earth would they give a serotonin inducer to someone who is on Tramadol, which contains SSRI inhibiting properties? That is shocking.
 

lolwhatzdrugs

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I was thinking the same thing. Why on earth would they give a serotonin inducer to someone who is on Tramadol, which contains SSRI inhibiting properties? That is shocking.
I think you mean it contains SNRI properties (it is not SSRI inhibiting, it is a reuptake inhibitor of serotonin and norepinephrine) how strong it inhibits the reuptake of serotonin would translate to how likely it is to cause serotonin syndrome. Every doctor should know this, why it would ever be used first over proven safe and natural opiates like morphine - the gold standard, I just don't understand. I know the serotonin has something to do with migraines as migraines are treated with triptans which are serotonin agonists, and people with cluster headaches (the worst crazy most fucked up migraine) have taken low doses of 5htp agonist psychedelics as a form of treatment. The risk of serotonin syndrome Vs. just giving morphine seems like a no brainer. May tramadol is a specific opioid good for migraines?

All very interesting, but headaches are still very poorly understood, some basic stuff is known, but the true cause of all headaches and solutions seems to elude us. I wonder how long the brain will hold onto it's mysteries.
 

Animoe

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Can somebody give a quick description as to what this is about?

I have never heard of this, but it looks interesting.
 

Numb19

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I think you mean it contains SNRI properties (it is not SSRI inhibiting, it is a reuptake inhibitor of serotonin and norepinephrine) how strong it inhibits the reuptake of serotonin would translate to how likely it is to cause serotonin syndrome. Every doctor should know this, why it would ever be used first over proven safe and natural opiates like morphine - the gold standard, I just don't understand. I know the serotonin has something to do with migraines as migraines are treated with triptans which are serotonin agonists, and people with cluster headaches (the worst crazy most fucked up migraine) have taken low doses of 5htp agonist psychedelics as a form of treatment. The risk of serotonin syndrome Vs. just giving morphine seems like a no brainer. May tramadol is a specific opioid good for migraines?

All very interesting, but headaches are still very poorly understood, some basic stuff is known, but the true cause of all headaches and solutions seems to elude us. I wonder how long the brain will hold onto it's mysteries.
Yes that's correct. Tramadol has SNRI properties.
 

lolwhatzdrugs

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Can somebody give a quick description as to what this is about?

I have never heard of this, but it looks interesting.
A drug called MPTP is converted to MPP+ in your brain by MAO-B which destroys dopamine receptors and leaves you with symptoms identical to parkinsons disease.

A dude trying to synthesize "Desmethylprodine or 1-Methyl-4-phenyl-4-propionoxypiperidine (MPPP)" an illegal analogue of pethidine, accidently created MPTP impurity. Shitty for him, but it gave scientists a drug which selectively destroyed dopamine receptors, allowing them to replicate parkinsonism in in an animal model, greatly helping research.

The neurotoxicity of MPTP was hinted at in 1976 after Barry Kidston, a 23-year-old chemistry graduate student in Maryland, US, synthesized MPPP with MPTP as a major impurity, and self-injected the result. Within three days he began exhibiting symptoms of Parkinson's disease. The National Institute of Mental Health found traces of MPTP and other pethidine analogs in his lab. They tested the substances on rats, but due to rodents' tolerance for this type of neurotoxin nothing was observed. Kidston's Parkinsonism was treated with levodopa but he died 18 months later from a cocaine overdose. Upon autopsy, destruction of dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra was discovered.[6]
[video=youtube_share;KsBphHpOfd4]http://youtu.be/KsBphHpOfd4[/video]
 

Solipsis

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Really? I heard most of the parkinsonism displayed by the 'victims' could be reversed with treatment? I guess the symptoms were partially reduced but there was still organic tissue damage done.
 

LSDiesel

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If I recall correctly, some were even sent to europe for cutting edge stem cell or brain cell transplants to try to regenerate the damaged dopamine tissue. It supposedly had an effect, but nothing close to what the patient was hoping for (ie full return of motor function)
 
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