Nootropics The Big & Dandy Psychedelics and Nootropics Interaction Thread

[shypht]

I just took 1600mg (I've read alot of places for the 1st time that you should take around 1-2g to know what the effects are) .. starting to feel it rather quickly, feel a bit 'jacked', but not in an unpleasant way. Waiting for my philosophy class to start now, and even though I find this course very interesting, I've found it hard to retain focus during class --- wonder if i'll notice any difference.

Was debating candy-flipping tonight at a rave, but I think I'll just do MDMA, and save trying piraceteam+LSD for another time and a more controlled setting

 

[Xorkoth]

Nice to know you're feeling an initial effect. I also concur that capping it is a waste of time. I usually just measure mine out and dissolve it in water along wth my other powders (nootropic powders that is), and drink it down. It dissolves without issue into a very small amount of a water, about a shot worth.

Keep in mind that the effects become easier to utilize the longer you've kept at it. My girlfriend has ADD and she has definitely found piracetam to help her focus in class. As have I, and I don't have ADD. Just let it happen

 

[shypht]

Last night was a swimmingly good time. The E seemed to work out nicely, and one of my friends who took some of the Piractam noted 'highly detailed and unexpected visuals'. I ended up eating 1.7g of mushrooms later in the night (a few hours after the pira), and the visuals for that were so crisp and clean - almost reminded me of LSD, but at the same time didnt feel very intense considering the intensity of visuals (then again, I was rolling on E which could also play a role).

Either way, went well -- going to keep this up and see how it works out.

 

[Ximot]

I have this uncomfortable (dangerous?) combo to report:

Combination of several nootropics:

640mg piracetam, 1 pill centrophenoxine ( I forget dosage), 500mg choline, 1 pill adrafinil (i forget dosage), 10mg vinpocetine... provided an excellent motivation booster + mood lift, but with mild crossover into restlessness territory at some moments after a few hours.

Added beer later (moderate amounts), plus DHEA (20mg) and methylone (50mg) and 5-MeO-Mipt (5mg) and 5mg vinpocetine again. Suddenly there was definite information overload and I got restless and lost control over my muscles a bit... facial expression difficult to control (I usually have an extremely expressive face) with mild twitches of muscle and sudden wobbles and jerks when walking, spilling my beer...

Nootropics can definitely overstimulate a person, and I have had a similar experience once before just adding red wine to the mix... adding a proper stimulant/entactogen such as Methylone and a tryptamine to this was definitely not particularly clever.

I shall be using nootropics with great caution from now on. Seems to me they do something to the brain that doesn't allow users to tweak those trippy receptors (sorry for not using scientific language) any more on the day. Bit of a consciousness overload that translated into motor control issues. Not that much fun really.

 

[nanobrain]

psychoactives are not toys, the 'actives' part is in no way negated by the fact that since most mechanisms remain unknown and the pharma companies / 'elected' governments do not really want a super healthy, cognitively superior bunch running around 'athinkin and the substances are branded 'nootropics'.

i have almost died from an indiscriminate combination of nootropics amongst the beautiful surrounds of the Getty gardens at the new museum in 2001 during an Old Masters drawings exhibit. not a bad place to die, really, but given the accompanying fear shock pain and the fact that my partner would be stuck with me corpse in a foreign land did not make dying an enviable or wanted prospect. lesson learned and carved into the right parietal lobe.

Ximot, cut out the choline, you don't need it w/centrophenoxine, and with adrafinil plus the vincamine, you were on the edge there.

SHIT, i missed the 5-MEO-MIPT / M1 part, you could have easily ended up dead from said combo due to the MAO inhibition / periph. serotonin, and adrenergic load...undoubtedly severe fight/flight psychological mode, the loss of control indicates a cholinergic and serotonergic overload.

FFS, you know better!

did all y'all process this through your nootropic heads? dont fuck around with these potent and sometimes deadly chemicals insearch of buzz potentiation.

also, consider this - when you are old and brainfried (like me) you might wish the nootropics worked for their intended function - alas, by this point, you will have become immune...

 

[uacvax]

you dissolve piracetam in water???!! yuck! it's quite possibly the most bitter substance i've ever tasted

 

[nanobrain]

^really? i think it tastes sweet and as such i use 2 teaspoons in my morning coffee instead of sugar.

 

[Ximot]

Ximot, cut out the choline, you don't need it w/centrophenoxine, and with adrafinil plus the vincamine, you were on the edge there.

SHIT, i missed the 5-MEO-MIPT / M1 part, you could have easily ended up dead from said combo due to the MAO inhibition / periph. serotonin, and adrenergic load...undoubtedly severe fight/flight psychological mode, the loss of control indicates a cholinergic and serotonergic overload.

FFS, you know better!

Well, it was all pretty much fine with just the nootropics mix. I also forgot to mention 70mg of 4FA 3-4 hours after the nootropics, and that, too, was fine.

Please explain the MAO-I factor to me -- I wasn't aware that I may have had an MAO-I as well (besides the fact that I use St. John's Wort almost daily)... which one of these drugs would have acted as an MAO-I? EDIT. bloody hell, I just googled centrophenoxine. I had always thought I'd done my homework about this one, but I have now read for the first time that it appears to inhibit MAO. I had no idea. Do the physiological properties of centrophenoxine differ in any way from those of DMAE, which I thought centrophenoxine is converted to by the body?? More importantly, IS CENTROPHENOXINE A POWERFUL MAOI?

I do know better generally and even better now and I am aware I was being stupid. I was perfectly fine till the M1 & 5-MeO-MIPT ingested a few hours later. I dosed both of them low, which was good. It was in fact after the ingestion of the 5-MeO-MIPT (consumed last) that symptoms really started making me look and feel retarded. I was a little pale the next day (almost no sleep either) but fine today again.

I read somewhere that choline and centrophenoxine are good together, though (though I had never before combined the two with adrafinil and vinpocetine all at the same time).

___
EDIT. A friend ingested the same nootropics cocktail I did, but he did not take the DHEA, 4FA and the 5-MeO-Mipt later. he did have beer and a full dose of M1 though. He did not have the reaction I had,although he found himself with a cold this morning (2 days later). I put my musculoskeletal problems down to mixing 2 different stimulants and a serotoninergic psychedelic with the nootropics cocktail. I am glad I did not overdo it on the dosages of anything, otherwise I would have really put myself at risk I guess.
___

To all: No flames, please - I do know I did not act wisely and I shall refrain from doing so again.

 

[Jabberwocky]

My understanding is various nootropics act as irreversible MAO-B inhibitors, but if taken in larger doses can begin to inhibit MAO-A, irreversibly.

 

[Ximot]

/\ What does 'irreversible' mean? You take it and it will optimise your MAO-levels for good (provided you did have too much of it) ?

--

From the little that my "piracetam MAO" Google search has yielded, it is unclear whether piracetam is an MAO-I or not. Found this statement: "Piracetam yields differential effects on MAO as well, with studies finding either net inhibition or net stimulation." Then on another site I read that piracetam does not affect MAO, or not significantly. Now I am at a loss.

It's interesting that centrophenoxine is an MAO-I. Perhaps this is why it makes me feel sharp and cheerful when I take it (I have been taking it for three years, on and off and never daily though, as it gets me a bit high-strung if I take it too often).

I have never taken 'classical' MAO-Is though (old-school anti-depressants) - all sorts of foods are contra-indicated with those. But I have never had any food-combining issues while taking centrophenoxine... also, I am sure I have used serotoninergic psychedelics in the past when I had taken centrophenoxine on the same day (though many hours before as I usually take it in the morning before work).

Wikipedia yielded this: "MAO-A is particularly important in the catabolism of monoamines ingested in food. Both MAOs are also vital to the inactivation of monoaminergic neurotransmitters, for which they display different specificities. Thus, serotonin is mainly broken down by MAO-A, as is norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline), while phenethylamine is broken down by MAO-B. Both forms break down dopamine."

I had never before looked at the differences between MAO-A inhibitors and MAO-B inhibitors... is one of them 'safer' than the other depending on what drugs/foods one combines with? Is centrophenoxine an MAO-A-I or an MAO-B-I?

Regarding MAO-Is used for potentiating oral DMT to make ayahuasca... what are the natural ones used traditionally, such as Syrian Rue - MAO-A-I or MAO-B-I?

Would I be able to have an oral DMT experience if I took centrophenoxine, if it is indeed an MAO-I?

Lots of questions, I know. I hope someone knows the answers and is willing to share them.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I do not think piracetam has any strong mao inhibition because people take it with MDMA and there has never been a case of serotonin syndrome. Although, I remember reading a study that found both MAO- A and B inhibition in rats from piracetam.

I am shaky on the exact nueromechanics of reversible and irreversible MAO-inhibition, but I think it has to do with the strength of the inhibition (i.e. the irreversible inhibition is stronger than reversible).

Centrophenoxine inihibits MAO-B (something to do with dopamine); this could be why you feel 'sharp' on it (?).

MAO-B inhibition will not allow you to have an oral DMT experience (unless of course you take a chemical that inhibits MAO-A).

Like I said, I've read that there is some evidence that a lot of the nootropics that inhibit MAO-B will begin to inhibit MAO-A if taken in large enough doses.

I would be very careful combining different nootropics with phenethylamines. It could produce a fatal situation and like some people have said it could produce a very unpredictable experience combined with a tryptamine.

 

[nanobrain]

the 4-substituted halos are notorious for MAO inhibition, as i believe are many of the 5-MEO tryptamines - there ya go, ya lucky bastard! ;-)

irreversible in re inhibition means that the average human metabolic clearance rate is about 2 weeks, and the action of the inhibitors is cumulative, do not forget.

combining 2Cs and a 'safe, selective' MAOI-B even at lower doses has yielded some shall i say rather shocking experiences none of the local rats would care to repeat since they seem to have grown averse to a potential lethal outcome for some reason...

 

[Jamshyd]

My understanding was that many of the "irreversible" MAOis work by causing the MAO enzyme to "commit suicide," while the reversible ones simply saturate the enzymes leaving little available to metabolize the drug. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could elaborate/correct me?

 

[Ximot]

the 4-substituted halos are notorious for MAO inhibition, as i believe are many of the 5-MEO tryptamines - there ya go, ya lucky bastard! ;-)

/\ REALLY? I used to think the only fairly widespread Shulgin compounds that had MAO-I activity were 2CT7 and AMT. So even something like 4-ACO-MIPT has MAO-I activity?? Does that mean combining it with a 2C is unwise?

 

[shypht]

Did Piracetam + LSD the other night. 500mg with 3 really potent blotters. All I gotta say is - WOW. Its not even a 'potentate' the LSD - it was like experiencing LSD for the first time all over again x100.

Most amazing 4 hours spent locked in a dark room I very much look forward to doing this again next time I want a very deep and relaxing trip.

 

[e1evene1even]

There seems to be almost no information regarding Vinpocetine and psychedelics. There is only one report on Erowid. Due to its effects I think it would interact with psychoactive drugs, but if it did , I'm sure somebody would have reported it before.

Vinpocetine:
-Selectively improves blood supply to the brain.
-Does not cause slowed heart rate or low blood pressure.
-Increases oxygen use by the brain.
-Enhances use of glucose by brain cells.
-Increases ATP levels in the brain.
-Stops blood from becoming sticky.
-Raises the amount of serotonin which has an activating effect on the brain.
-Is not harmful to the central nervous system.
It has been proven, using a wide variety of methods in thousands of patients, that vinpocetine improves blood ciculation, oxygen uptake, and glucose utilization by the brain. The degree to which the chemical reactions of the brain are improved depends upon the level of oxygen in the brain. Vinpocetine has its first effect on areas that are damaged. Blood flow actually is increased in the damaged region.

Drug Interactions:
Interactions of the tablet has not been reported so far, therefore, it can be applied in combinations.

Perhaps even if it has no effects on the subjective intensity of the experience, it could have some neuroprotective effects when taken pre/post something with neurotoxicity like MDMA. Does anyone have any knowledge in this regard? I would like to start taking it daily, but would like to be aware of any possible interactions.

(*It would be nice if this thread was combined with the 'Nootropic Information thread' into a B&D, this seems to be a common topic and there is good information in this thread.)

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Good idea! I just moved a post of mine to the beginning of this thread and renamed it, and re-assigned the link to the psychedelics and nootropics thread in the Best of PD page. Enjoy!

 

[e1evene1even]

Does anyone have any experience with Desmopressin/vapopressin? Vasopressin is no longer made but I have some Desmopressin that has been sitting in my fridge for about a year now. From what I have read it seems like it has great potential for 'modulating' the psychedelics experience, and in fact does so naturally. I only tried it a few times, but never in combination with any psychoactives. One thing I noticed was that it makes it almost impossible to urinate (anti-diuretic). This is very common with many psychedelics and MDMA.

I think the role of vasopressin is largely unexplored in psychedelic studies and it may be more important than we realize. It certainly seems very promising. Perhaps it could help us bring back more of the insights, or perhaps many of the insights are largely normal thoughts that only seem more profound because of the increased levels of vasopressin in the tripping brain?

Its often difficult to bring much back from extremely powerful, short acting experiences like DMT, 5-MeO-DMT and Salvia. I wonder if taking vasopressin before these experiences would help one remember them better and if so, is this such a smart idea?

Vasopressin (anti-diuretic hormone) is a hormone secreted by the posterior portion of the pituitary gland... It improves attention, concentration. memory (both short-term and long-term). Vasopressin is necessary for imprinting new information in your memory.

Cocaine, LSD, amphetamines, Ritalin and Cylert (pemoline) cause your pituitary gland to release natural vasopressin at a faster rate. Frequent use of these drugs can cause depleted levels of vasopressin with resultant slowness and dopiness. A whiff of vasopressin can transform stimulant burnout experience in about 10 seconds, because it is rapidly absorbed by the nasal mucosa, and immediately replaces the vasopressin that has been depleted.

Conversely, marijuana and alcohol suppress the release of vasopressin. A whiff of vasopressin when using these drugs will compensate for much of the dopiness caused by them.

Vasopressin is very useful when learning large amounts of new information. It can increase your ability to memorize and recall.

Many people have very strong and positive reactions to vasopressin.

Reduced brain levels of vasopressin may be one factor in psychedelic tolerance. Repeated, frequent experiences don't seem to have the same impact or be as powerful because there is not enough endogenous vasopressin available for 'imprinting'. Perhaps supplementing with vasopressin/desmopressin (similar to an MDMA pre/post-load of 5-HTP to increase brain serotonin levels) may decrease subjective tolerance levels...

 

[uacvax]

^really? i think it tastes sweet and as such i use 2 teaspoons in my morning coffee instead of sugar.

sounds like alpha gpc to me

 

[Xorkoth]

I may try the piracetam and LSD combo one day... seems like quite a few people report simple potentiation rather than alteration of effects.