Sr. Moderator: PD, TR, TDS, P&S
- Feb 8, 2006
[Reposting some important posts from the Nootropic Information Thread, which has been moved to OD and thus, I am unable to moderate the posts
Here is a link to the thread in OD where these posts were copied from.]
Here is a link to the thread in OD where these posts were copied from.]
solistus said:Mods, feel free to move this... I wasn't sure where to post it, but it seems that most nootropic discussion on BL ends up here, so I figured it'd be a good place to start.
I just got some 5-HTP supplements, and plan on starting a daily 5-HTP and nootropic (either lecithin or piracetam) regimen. I have a few questions about the two:
-Do they combine in any unusual way? Do they make one another more/less effective?
-Should both be taken daily? I know nootropics generally work best with daily doses... Is 5-HTP the same way?
-What's a good dose for 5-HTP? The supplement I got suggests a 50mg daily dose; is that a good amount?
-How much and at what times should I take 5-HTP if I want to use it to lessen the serotonin depleting effects of MDMA?
-Which nootropic would be best for this combination? I'm primarily interested in using a nootropic to combat the detrimental effects of regular cannabis use and to help with focusing on completing boring tasks. I'd also love to enhance my dream recall ability, particularly during active periods of cannabis use. I'm leaning toward piracetam, but I've heard a lot of good things about lecithin as well.
Finally, the big one: how do nootropics and 5-HTP interact with psychedelics? I imagine daily supplement takers on this forum have run into this combination before; I seem to recall Xorkoth posting something about piracetam changing the character of 2Cs, but that's about it. I haven't seen any reports of 5-HTP and psychedelics. Would I be wise to stop my supplement regimen before a psychedelic experience, or would they not interact / interact positively? I'm primarily concerned with effects on the classic pyschedelics, but information regarding RCs would be much appreciated as well.
samadhi_smiles said:Piracetam is water soluble and as such its halflife is a lot less than 12 hours (more like 3-4). It should of been entirely out of your system by then. A 24mg dose of 4-AcO-DMT is a large dose, IMHO.
Piracetam may protect against some of the neurotoxicity post-MDMA usage (doses at Tminus4 hours, Tplus6 and then the following morning, for instance). Its possible this may potentiate the effects of the MDMA a bit, so perhaps a lower dosage of MDMA is in order (this will do a lot in and of itself to protect your brain). Its also possible this could produce a dysphoric reaction. And finally, it may keep you awake when what your body really needs is sleep.
Dosing the 5-HTP along with the piracetam is fine.
Lecithin is a pretty useless form of choline, YMMV.
Xorkoth said:Alrighty... I'll spill everything I know about this topic. Nanobrain is someone who knows more than I, also.
I've taken both 5-HTP and a heap of nootropics, but never together, so unfortunately I don't know how that would work. My intuition tells me it would be absolutely fine though. Personally I don't get much from 5-HTP, but I know that quite a few people do so it's definitely worth a try.
As for nootropics, I've got a lot to say. Piracetam I would say is the most important one to take, plus it's really dirt cheap if you buy it in bulk. I would definitely not buy the manufactured pills (called Nootropil), because it's a huge rip-off when the bulk crystals are available. We can't source here but it's extremely easy to find if you haven't already. Piracetam is, in my opinion, a wonder substance. I can hardly measure the value it has to me. I can honestly say it has helped to change my life, it and hydergine (which I will get to). Piracetam has a very wide range of beneficial and protective effects in the brain, which are discussed in this paper which I have found to be a great summary of many, many sources. The result of these benefits produces the following subjective effects on me: increased speed of thought, increased ability to mentally multi-task, increased word recall and speed, increased motivation, increased mood, increased mental activity (no idle time), and increased integration of logical and emotional concepts. A lot of people seem to need a few "attack doses" to start noticing piracetam, but after that, especially in combination with other nootropics, an 800-1000mg dose in the morning has sufficed for me. Nootropics are not like other drugs in that they produce no buzz of any kind (except one I will mention later), so some people find them hard to notice or work with, and some people (usually kids I find) think they're bullshit. To notice what they do, I found it useful to take them before a mentally straining event, which in my case was work. Suddenly you will notice that everything becomes easier, that your thoughts are moving quicker and more fluidly, and things like that. Once you understand what they're doing to your mental functions, it becomes easy to work with them and they become invaluable. That's the best way I can explain it.
Hydergine is the other nootropic that I really, really swear by. When piracetam and hydergine are combined, they produce a synergy that is greater than either alone. The effects of hydergine are outlined well in this article. Hydergine's main effect that is unique from piracetam's on me is that it works very well at balancing my emotions. A year or so ago, I was quite depressed and had been getting increasingly so for about 3 years before that. I felt crushed motivationally, creatively, and mentally. I felt like I was losing my imagination and will to live and mental dexterity. I felt like I was losing myself. Although there were other factors (landmark psychedelic trips and life factors such as moving far away), piracetam and hydergine had a very large and direct impact on kicking me out of that state. One of hydergine's effects is to balance out levels of serotonin and dopamine, raising them if they're too low and lowering them if they're too high. Hydergine had a lot to do with helping my depression, and I notice that I almost never have mood swings or causeless depression/anxiety/apathy anymore. It's not a euphoria so much as just a natural state of contentment at all times (unless something specific happens, of course). Basically, besides that, its subjective effects on me are to greatly enhance piracetam's benefits, and hydergine seems to specifically help with word recall and vocabulary compared to piracetam. It also increases circulation, especially to the brain but also to the extremities. I have poor circulation to my hands and feet, but since starting hydergine it has been much less noticeable. I used to have ice cold fingers even in the summer. Hydergine is harder to get than the other nootropics because it must be ordered from overseas, and it's more expensive by a lot than piracetam. You can get it in bulk but as far as I know you can only do so if you're a chemical company, so I think you'll need to buy the manufactured pills. It's worth it though. If I were you I would definitely invest if you plan to begin nootropics. It's good to start with 4.5mg doses, but over time as I got used to it I moved down to 2.25mg instead to save money.
Lecithin in another substance I take, as it combined very well with the other two. Lecithin is dirt cheap as well and very easy to get even at a health food store. It contains phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylserine, some fatty acids, and a few other things. Plus, our nerve cells are protected by lecithin so it helps to supplement it. As S_S said, it's not the best form of choline, but I use it anyway since it contains other important things as well.
Centrophenoxine is something else I take, as it is a very effective way to raise acetylcholine levels (which is what lecithin also tries to do but is less effective at). Here is an article about it. Aside from raising acetylcholine levels, it has a range of other benefits. I take about 250mg of this daily, and I get it in bulk (like everything else, it is tremendously cheaper this way). And yes, all the compounds I'm discussing here I take together with nothing but positive side effects.
Phenibut is a substance I keep around and use sometimes, but not daily. It's related to GABA and I use it to produce a light, relaxing buzz and most importantly greatly increased sociability and a really smooth, natural, long-lasting euphoria. I use it in addition to my normal nootropic regimen when I'm feeling depressed or something, or sometimes when I'm going to a social gathering because it makes me really extroverted and I tend to be an introvert. About 1.5 grams is a good starting dose. it takes a couple of hours to kick in and then it lasts pretty much all day. It's not at all addictive but tolerance does develop if you use it regularly, pretty damn fast. It's subtle but a lifesaver when I need it. You can easily get it in bulk. It's slightly benzo-like but in my opinion far, far superior because it doesn't interact with cognition or memory and is far, far safer. Plus I get no euphoria at all from benzos, but a great one from phenibut.
Idebenone is a nootropic I've just started sampling. I can't say much about it yet, but it's also very promising in its effects profile. This article outlines those effects.
The reason that I recommend that every person, regardless of health or age, should start taking a nootropic regimen is because they show excellent promise in lengthening your lifespan and greatly increasing your quality of mental health as you age. Research shows that especially piracetam and hydergine help tremendously to protect the brain from all kinds of damage, including oxidation, mitrochondrial aging (when your mitochondria are too old, your body cannot renew itself and dies, but hydergine has been shown to protect and actually reverse the aging of the mitochondria), loss of dopamine production into old age (which is the reason people go senile), and a host of other things. The main recognized medical uise for these substances right now is in treating age-related mental disorders such as Alzheimer's, for which it is quite effective. But why couldn't they also be a preventative measure so that you never get to that point? In theory, were you to take these nootropics regularly into old age, and you kept your body healthy, your mind would never deteriorate and you may be able to live a very long time, longer than people are currently living by far. I find this extremely fascinating and it's my opinion that, if research continues, nootropics will become a very important part of our nutrition in the future. Just as antibiotics were the medical marvel of the 20th century, lengthening the average human lifespan considerably, so, I think, nootropics will be one of the medical marvels of the 21st century, also raising the average human lifespan considerably. After doing the research, this is how it seems to me.
As for interaction with psychedelics, yes, they do indeed do that. I find marijuana to be enhanced to some extent while on them and you should be fine using it, but full-on psychedelics seem to be, for the most part, wildly affected. You have probably read my 2C-E +4 report, which was partly because of piracetam used purposely as a booster (the first and only time I did this!). The alteration of effects seems random, and also different depending on which psychedelic is used. I've also combined it with 5-MeO-MiPT (by accident), and instead of a nice trip I felt like I had the flu for a few hours with no mental effects. I just wouldn't recommend mixing, especially piracetam. Piracetam definitely has by far the most dramatic effect on psychedelic action. One thing that piracetam IS good to use for is to pre-load and post-load for an MDMA session. It seems to dramatically reduce the negative effects as well as the quality of the experience. I also find it good for other amphetamines, except I haven't dared try it with a DOX.
Oh, and Fizzacyst, like samadhi_smiles said, piracetam should be out of your system well before 12 hours. I take it every morning and I've only had it affect my trips when it's taken directly before or within 3-4 hours before. I've taken it 4-5 hours before a psychedelic on numerous occasions with no perceived interaction. Chances are you just took a large dose of a powerful psychedelic. When I took 25mg, I blacked out for 2 hours and came to as god, stuck in the void for eternity.
Pregnenalone is another one to check out, which I haven't yet.
In case you hadn't noticed, one of the effects they have on me is to give me quite the urge to communicate
if you have any other questions (or anyone else), please PM me.
Thanks for all the info. I was hoping to hear from you, but never expected to get such an in-depth response.
I think I'm gonna start with 50mg/day 5-HTP for now (it's all I currently have). I'll pick up some piracetam ASAP, and look into phenibut for occasional use. Depending on how successful the piracetam/5-HTP regimen is, I may add hydergine sometime down the line.
I'll have to give some thought to pills v. bulk powder/crystals... the latter would be cheaper, but I'd need to buy a scale. But that's another matter.
To avoid interactions with psychedelics, I would just skip any planned piracetam doses for a few hours before and during the trip, right?
[Everything else in there seems to be covered later in this thread. So now our new Big and Dandy Nootropics and Psychedelics Thread resides in PD, where it belongs!]Xorkoth said:No you wouldn't. The bulk powder at the place I get it from comes in a labelled plastic jar which conveniently states how many milligrams are in a 1/4 teaspoon for that particular batch of the substance. I've never used my scale to dose the powders except for once to make sure the 1/4 tsp estimated dose was correct, which it was. I use an 1/8 tsp and 1/4 tsp to dose out nootropics. In fact, I have special ones that I use only for dosing them!solistus said:I'll have to give some thought to pills v. bulk powder/crystals... the latter would be cheaper, but I'd need to buy a scale
It's very easy... I just scoop a certain number of times for each powder and dump it into water and drink it down each morning. it tastes gross but compared to pure psychedelic powders, it's nothing (except for phenibut... that stuff is really gross).
I started doing it two days ago I believe, and continued a bit yesterday and today. So now all the threads that Church has cleaned have links to the archived scraps.thugg said:Sweet I didn't notice that, he must have done it recently?