The Big & Dandy Psychedelics and Nootropics Interaction Thread

Shadowmeister

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[Reposting some important posts from the Nootropic Information Thread, which has been moved to OD and thus, I am unable to moderate the posts

Here is a link to the thread in OD where these posts were copied from.]


solistus said:
Mods, feel free to move this... I wasn't sure where to post it, but it seems that most nootropic discussion on BL ends up here, so I figured it'd be a good place to start.

I just got some 5-HTP supplements, and plan on starting a daily 5-HTP and nootropic (either lecithin or piracetam) regimen. I have a few questions about the two:

-Do they combine in any unusual way? Do they make one another more/less effective?
-Should both be taken daily? I know nootropics generally work best with daily doses... Is 5-HTP the same way?
-What's a good dose for 5-HTP? The supplement I got suggests a 50mg daily dose; is that a good amount?
-How much and at what times should I take 5-HTP if I want to use it to lessen the serotonin depleting effects of MDMA?
-Which nootropic would be best for this combination? I'm primarily interested in using a nootropic to combat the detrimental effects of regular cannabis use and to help with focusing on completing boring tasks. I'd also love to enhance my dream recall ability, particularly during active periods of cannabis use. I'm leaning toward piracetam, but I've heard a lot of good things about lecithin as well.

Finally, the big one: how do nootropics and 5-HTP interact with psychedelics? I imagine daily supplement takers on this forum have run into this combination before; I seem to recall Xorkoth posting something about piracetam changing the character of 2Cs, but that's about it. I haven't seen any reports of 5-HTP and psychedelics. Would I be wise to stop my supplement regimen before a psychedelic experience, or would they not interact / interact positively? I'm primarily concerned with effects on the classic pyschedelics, but information regarding RCs would be much appreciated as well.
samadhi_smiles said:
Piracetam is water soluble and as such its halflife is a lot less than 12 hours (more like 3-4). It should of been entirely out of your system by then. A 24mg dose of 4-AcO-DMT is a large dose, IMHO.

Piracetam may protect against some of the neurotoxicity post-MDMA usage (doses at Tminus4 hours, Tplus6 and then the following morning, for instance). Its possible this may potentiate the effects of the MDMA a bit, so perhaps a lower dosage of MDMA is in order (this will do a lot in and of itself to protect your brain). Its also possible this could produce a dysphoric reaction. And finally, it may keep you awake when what your body really needs is sleep.

Dosing the 5-HTP along with the piracetam is fine.

Lecithin is a pretty useless form of choline, YMMV.
Xorkoth said:
Alrighty... I'll spill everything I know about this topic. Nanobrain is someone who knows more than I, also.

I've taken both 5-HTP and a heap of nootropics, but never together, so unfortunately I don't know how that would work. My intuition tells me it would be absolutely fine though. Personally I don't get much from 5-HTP, but I know that quite a few people do so it's definitely worth a try.

As for nootropics, I've got a lot to say. Piracetam I would say is the most important one to take, plus it's really dirt cheap if you buy it in bulk. I would definitely not buy the manufactured pills (called Nootropil), because it's a huge rip-off when the bulk crystals are available. We can't source here but it's extremely easy to find if you haven't already. Piracetam is, in my opinion, a wonder substance. I can hardly measure the value it has to me. I can honestly say it has helped to change my life, it and hydergine (which I will get to). Piracetam has a very wide range of beneficial and protective effects in the brain, which are discussed in this paper which I have found to be a great summary of many, many sources. The result of these benefits produces the following subjective effects on me: increased speed of thought, increased ability to mentally multi-task, increased word recall and speed, increased motivation, increased mood, increased mental activity (no idle time), and increased integration of logical and emotional concepts. A lot of people seem to need a few "attack doses" to start noticing piracetam, but after that, especially in combination with other nootropics, an 800-1000mg dose in the morning has sufficed for me. Nootropics are not like other drugs in that they produce no buzz of any kind (except one I will mention later), so some people find them hard to notice or work with, and some people (usually kids I find) think they're bullshit. To notice what they do, I found it useful to take them before a mentally straining event, which in my case was work. Suddenly you will notice that everything becomes easier, that your thoughts are moving quicker and more fluidly, and things like that. Once you understand what they're doing to your mental functions, it becomes easy to work with them and they become invaluable. That's the best way I can explain it.

Hydergine is the other nootropic that I really, really swear by. When piracetam and hydergine are combined, they produce a synergy that is greater than either alone. The effects of hydergine are outlined well in this article. Hydergine's main effect that is unique from piracetam's on me is that it works very well at balancing my emotions. A year or so ago, I was quite depressed and had been getting increasingly so for about 3 years before that. I felt crushed motivationally, creatively, and mentally. I felt like I was losing my imagination and will to live and mental dexterity. I felt like I was losing myself. Although there were other factors (landmark psychedelic trips and life factors such as moving far away), piracetam and hydergine had a very large and direct impact on kicking me out of that state. One of hydergine's effects is to balance out levels of serotonin and dopamine, raising them if they're too low and lowering them if they're too high. Hydergine had a lot to do with helping my depression, and I notice that I almost never have mood swings or causeless depression/anxiety/apathy anymore. It's not a euphoria so much as just a natural state of contentment at all times (unless something specific happens, of course). Basically, besides that, its subjective effects on me are to greatly enhance piracetam's benefits, and hydergine seems to specifically help with word recall and vocabulary compared to piracetam. It also increases circulation, especially to the brain but also to the extremities. I have poor circulation to my hands and feet, but since starting hydergine it has been much less noticeable. I used to have ice cold fingers even in the summer. Hydergine is harder to get than the other nootropics because it must be ordered from overseas, and it's more expensive by a lot than piracetam. You can get it in bulk but as far as I know you can only do so if you're a chemical company, so I think you'll need to buy the manufactured pills. It's worth it though. If I were you I would definitely invest if you plan to begin nootropics. It's good to start with 4.5mg doses, but over time as I got used to it I moved down to 2.25mg instead to save money.

Lecithin in another substance I take, as it combined very well with the other two. Lecithin is dirt cheap as well and very easy to get even at a health food store. It contains phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylserine, some fatty acids, and a few other things. Plus, our nerve cells are protected by lecithin so it helps to supplement it. As S_S said, it's not the best form of choline, but I use it anyway since it contains other important things as well.

Centrophenoxine is something else I take, as it is a very effective way to raise acetylcholine levels (which is what lecithin also tries to do but is less effective at). Here is an article about it. Aside from raising acetylcholine levels, it has a range of other benefits. I take about 250mg of this daily, and I get it in bulk (like everything else, it is tremendously cheaper this way). And yes, all the compounds I'm discussing here I take together with nothing but positive side effects.

Phenibut is a substance I keep around and use sometimes, but not daily. It's related to GABA and I use it to produce a light, relaxing buzz and most importantly greatly increased sociability and a really smooth, natural, long-lasting euphoria. I use it in addition to my normal nootropic regimen when I'm feeling depressed or something, or sometimes when I'm going to a social gathering because it makes me really extroverted and I tend to be an introvert. About 1.5 grams is a good starting dose. it takes a couple of hours to kick in and then it lasts pretty much all day. It's not at all addictive but tolerance does develop if you use it regularly, pretty damn fast. It's subtle but a lifesaver when I need it. You can easily get it in bulk. It's slightly benzo-like but in my opinion far, far superior because it doesn't interact with cognition or memory and is far, far safer. Plus I get no euphoria at all from benzos, but a great one from phenibut.

Idebenone is a nootropic I've just started sampling. I can't say much about it yet, but it's also very promising in its effects profile. This article outlines those effects.

The reason that I recommend that every person, regardless of health or age, should start taking a nootropic regimen is because they show excellent promise in lengthening your lifespan and greatly increasing your quality of mental health as you age. Research shows that especially piracetam and hydergine help tremendously to protect the brain from all kinds of damage, including oxidation, mitrochondrial aging (when your mitochondria are too old, your body cannot renew itself and dies, but hydergine has been shown to protect and actually reverse the aging of the mitochondria), loss of dopamine production into old age (which is the reason people go senile), and a host of other things. The main recognized medical uise for these substances right now is in treating age-related mental disorders such as Alzheimer's, for which it is quite effective. But why couldn't they also be a preventative measure so that you never get to that point? In theory, were you to take these nootropics regularly into old age, and you kept your body healthy, your mind would never deteriorate and you may be able to live a very long time, longer than people are currently living by far. I find this extremely fascinating and it's my opinion that, if research continues, nootropics will become a very important part of our nutrition in the future. Just as antibiotics were the medical marvel of the 20th century, lengthening the average human lifespan considerably, so, I think, nootropics will be one of the medical marvels of the 21st century, also raising the average human lifespan considerably. After doing the research, this is how it seems to me.

As for interaction with psychedelics, yes, they do indeed do that. I find marijuana to be enhanced to some extent while on them and you should be fine using it, but full-on psychedelics seem to be, for the most part, wildly affected. You have probably read my 2C-E +4 report, which was partly because of piracetam used purposely as a booster (the first and only time I did this!). The alteration of effects seems random, and also different depending on which psychedelic is used. I've also combined it with 5-MeO-MiPT (by accident), and instead of a nice trip I felt like I had the flu for a few hours with no mental effects. I just wouldn't recommend mixing, especially piracetam. Piracetam definitely has by far the most dramatic effect on psychedelic action. One thing that piracetam IS good to use for is to pre-load and post-load for an MDMA session. It seems to dramatically reduce the negative effects as well as the quality of the experience. I also find it good for other amphetamines, except I haven't dared try it with a DOX.

Oh, and Fizzacyst, like samadhi_smiles said, piracetam should be out of your system well before 12 hours. I take it every morning and I've only had it affect my trips when it's taken directly before or within 3-4 hours before. I've taken it 4-5 hours before a psychedelic on numerous occasions with no perceived interaction. Chances are you just took a large dose of a powerful psychedelic. When I took 25mg, I blacked out for 2 hours and came to as god, stuck in the void for eternity.

Pregnenalone is another one to check out, which I haven't yet.

In case you hadn't noticed, one of the effects they have on me is to give me quite the urge to communicate

if you have any other questions (or anyone else), please PM me.
solistus said:
Xorkoth,

Thanks for all the info. I was hoping to hear from you, but never expected to get such an in-depth response.

I think I'm gonna start with 50mg/day 5-HTP for now (it's all I currently have). I'll pick up some piracetam ASAP, and look into phenibut for occasional use. Depending on how successful the piracetam/5-HTP regimen is, I may add hydergine sometime down the line.

I'll have to give some thought to pills v. bulk powder/crystals... the latter would be cheaper, but I'd need to buy a scale. But that's another matter.

To avoid interactions with psychedelics, I would just skip any planned piracetam doses for a few hours before and during the trip, right?
Xorkoth said:
solistus said:
I'll have to give some thought to pills v. bulk powder/crystals... the latter would be cheaper, but I'd need to buy a scale
No you wouldn't. The bulk powder at the place I get it from comes in a labelled plastic jar which conveniently states how many milligrams are in a 1/4 teaspoon for that particular batch of the substance. I've never used my scale to dose the powders except for once to make sure the 1/4 tsp estimated dose was correct, which it was. I use an 1/8 tsp and 1/4 tsp to dose out nootropics. In fact, I have special ones that I use only for dosing them!

It's very easy... I just scoop a certain number of times for each powder and dump it into water and drink it down each morning. it tastes gross but compared to pure psychedelic powders, it's nothing (except for phenibut... that stuff is really gross).

thugg said:
Sweet I didn't notice that, he must have done it recently?
I started doing it two days ago I believe, and continued a bit yesterday and today. So now all the threads that Church has cleaned have links to the archived scraps.
[Everything else in there seems to be covered later in this thread. So now our new Big and Dandy Nootropics and Psychedelics Thread resides in PD, where it belongs!]
 
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shypht

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Psychedelics + Nootropics

Nootropics have been catching my eye the past while, and debating getting some soon. I've seen a few reports on Erowid of Nootropics + Psychedelics or even just MDMA, and people have gotten some good results.

Just curious if anyone here has tried mixing them and what the results were? Are they worth adding to the mix? placebo effect at best? or do they really add something to the trips.
 

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I've tried 3 mixes with piracetam. Piracetam seems to affect the trip the most of all the nootropics, followed by hydergine. I do not recommend mixing piracetam with psychedelics because it produces wildly unpredictable and intense effects.

The first mix I tried was with MDMA. I find that it actually mixes very well with MDMA, increasing the peak, reducing the negative effects, increasing the length by eliminating the sudden drop-off, and reducing the emotional and physical hangover. I highly recommend it. I also mixed a small dose of LSD with it 4 hours after taking the MDMA and 5 hours after taking the piracetam, and it went extremely smoothly. Here is the trip report:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=49352

Another mix I tried was with 5-MeO-MiPT, at 6mg. This was very unpleasant. It seemed to block the trip and instead gave me a feeling like I was sick with a bad cold or the flu. My head felt all stuffed up and I just laid around feeling crappy for hours. I didn't write a trip report and I would definitely not recommend the mix in any way.

The final combination I tried was with 18mg of 2C-E, and it produces the most intense trip of my life. It was a trip that I'm very glad to have had but would never put myself through again. it was a full-on +4, and it was so incredibly complex and full of content that it still blows my mind to think about. It increased the intensity over my previous 18mg 2C-E experience by a huge amount. Mainly, it increased the mental effects tremendously, astronomically. It was utterly terrifying but ultimately worth it, but still not recommended, due to the fact that I had many thoughts of suicide and/or calling 911 because I felt that not only my life but my very soul were threatened. I was sure I was never coming back and that my soul would be lost forever and I would cease to exist. Here are two trip reports. The first is my first 18mg 2C-E trip which was powerful but very manageable. The second is my trip with piracetam involved:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=47209
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=48983

Overall, I would not recommend mixing piracetam with psychedelics. it's just too unpredictable. I know nanobrain has things to say about this, probably moreso than anyone else on this forum.
 

shypht

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Thanks for the info - I'll give the trip reports a read when I get the time.

Have you given anything like the Oxi or Ani a shot either? Also, when doing the mix of MDMA with Piractem, do you need to be following a regime for a few days before / after rolling? Or is simply taking it the day that your rolling enough to notice the differences?

What you said about it with MDMA has my interest, as the main reason why I rarely touch the stuff anymore is the highs are not as good, and my comedowns/hangovers leave me feeling in shambles for upto a week if not longer after.

I am planning on rolling in the next week or two for the 1st time in a couple of months, and wouldnt mind giving this a combo a try to see if it will minimize the "I feel like my IQ has dropped 50 points and I want to sit in the middle of the street and give up on life", as well as giving a bit of the magic back to my rolls.
 

spacefacethebassace

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Piracetam+MDMA is good. Piracetam+Psychedelics is...like xorkoth said, wildly unpredictable.

I have enough problems relinquishing control to one powerful psychoactive, let alone two that have amazing synergistic effects.
 

Shadowmeister

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I've tried both ani- and oxiracetam, but not in combination with MDMA or psychedelics. I take piracetam and hydergine every day, and about every other day I include 200-400mg of oxiracetam to the stack. I notice that it enhances the piracetam, but mostly acts about the same as piracetam except more potent. Something about aniracteam feels off to me so I don't take it.

Piracetam works the first time you take it. Cognitive benefits seem to increase as you take it for longer and longer, or perhaps you just learn how to best utilize the enhanced functionality it gives your brain. It will also enhance MDMA the first time you take it. I take it every day, but even if I didn't, I'd probably take it the day before, an hour before the MDMA, after the MDMA comes down, and each day for 3-4 days to help reduce the aftereffects.
 

shypht

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The 'amazing synergestic effects' is what I'm curious about. My source for LSD may be dried up, and while I do have a little stockpile (about 30 hits or so) left of /very/ good stuff (1 is a trip, 2 is knocking my socks off, 3 is blasting my concepts of reality away in ways I never knew possible) - I'd like to try and get the 'most out of it possible'.

I've just placed an order for some Piracetam, mostly to prepare for my next roll (and also interested in its general daily use), but think I may give it a shot with LSD with just 1 hit at some point and see how it mixes with that, and see if it can help me extend my stash a little longer by having 1 hit be a 'knock my socks off' instead of 2.
 

nanobrain

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^bad idea. FFS, nootropics are not meant for potentiation. grr..
 

shypht

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Ok, since you were mentioned as having alot to say on the subject - I'm curious to hear more of your opinion.

I've read from another source or two that nootropics+LSD add a certian 'crispness' to the mental clarity of the trip which interests me, as well as increasing the visual aspect -- perhaps I was wrong in how/what I said in my previous post. But, I am still curious to how the two would combine to create a stronger and hopefully different trip than simply LSD on it's own.
 

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The effects of mixing it with psychedelics is inconsistent, and frankly, just too much.

Also, I should say that in the first example of mixing piracetam with MDMA and later LSD that I mentioned above, it mixed well with the MDMA but the LSD was taken 5 or more houts after the piracetam. I have found that 5 or 6 hours after taking piracetam, it does not seem to significantly interact with psychedelic drugs anymore. So you shouldn't consider that an example of mixing it with LSD, but rather just with mixing it with MDMA.

Like nanobrain said, piracetam is not meant for potentiating psychedelics. It's just too unpredictable and wild.
 

e1evene1even

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One half of a cannabis cookie, 100mg of 5-HTP and 800mg of piracetam was extremely psychedelic for me. It felt more like LSD than weed!

Its better by itself or in a nootropic cocktail. When you first get the bottle, I would pass on the suggestion to try a high 'attack' dose first (4-5grams) by itself to feel the effects then afterwards its much easier to notice the effects of just one pill.
 

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Also of note - don't buy pills of piracetam. Buy it in bulk powder/crystals. If you buy pharmaceutical pills or any preparation, you're paying way, way, way too much.
 

shypht

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Getting 25g of bulk powder for $15 + shipping (which is 5 dollars). I've seen it for cheaper off of some other sites, but they were based in the US with extremly expensive shipping, so the over all cost is lower with the supplier I'm getting it from.

Hoping it arrives before next weekend ...... But, I dont to derail this thread too much (my initial interest was on the combo with Psychedelics ---) -if I was t to start taking this as a daily thing - how long would it be until I started to notice effects?

I've read a few things saying it may take upto a month before I started to notice effects, which is what had me curious about Oxi and Ani - as people reported noticing effects on the 1st time taking it (However, I cant find any canadian supplires for either of them)
 

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Look into centrophenoxine (converts to DMAE) as well for nootropic effects. It helps me focus, though every 5 days or so I stop taking it for two or three because I can get a bit agitated if I use it for too long. I tend to not take it on days I plan to trip because a trip really is enough stimulation as it is.
 

Shadowmeister

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Did you mean 250 grams, not 25? If you're only getting 25 grams for $15, you're also getting ripped off really badly. You can get 700 grams from somewhere for only a little over $15, minus shipping. I find it odd that you're finding large shipping costs at US-based sites. Unless you're not in the US, in which case that makes sense.

You should notice effects immediately, and they keep growing as you use it. It helps to start with an "attack dose" of 2-3 grams. After a few days, you can move down to 800mg per day. It's as if you have to shock your brain into noticing it, and then once you get familiar with its effects, you start to learn how to use them. Don't worry - no amount of piracetam is going to hurt you.

Also, centrophenoxine is definitely a good choice, as well. Hydergine and piracetam are tied for my favorite. Hydergine is invaluable.
 

shypht

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Yeah, I'm in Canada, although I did just check another website and noticed that yeah - I can get 700g for about $33 dollars (including shipping), which after shipping from the other place is what I'm spending to get 26g worth ...

So, while the shipping is about 2x the cost - I'm getting a hell of alot more in the long run for the similar over-all price. Hrmm, I'll take that as a 'live and learn' and if I end up liking it and decide to make it part of my daily routine, I'll know where to get it from in the future.
 

shypht

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Looks like it will arrive in time tonight, just got the postage slip saying I can pick it up at 1.

Its a bulk powder though, I dont have any caps on hand at the moment - can I just disolve it in some water and chug it back? or should I snag up some caps on my way to the post office?
 

Leemo

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Does anyone have any experience with DXM and piracetam interaction? On erowid, a segment said that people felt an enhanced mental clarity from nootropics, but I've heard people say that piracetam nulls the effects of dissocatives.

I also heard that piracetam is good for people who have had excessive DXM use, but I'm more interested in use of piracetam the same day as a big DXM dose.
 

psychedelicious

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shypht said:
Looks like it will arrive in time tonight, just got the postage slip saying I can pick it up at 1.

Its a bulk powder though, I dont have any caps on hand at the moment - can I just disolve it in some water and chug it back? or should I snag up some caps on my way to the post office?
Yup. If you have difficulty dissolving it, try using warm water. A little heat dissolves it quickly.

It is so soluble that I think it's easier to just get a tablespoon out and eat it that way - melts right in your mouth.

Wash it down with orange juice - it is quite bitter. It's more a different taste than a bad one.

Capping it is a waste of time, IMO.

Leemo said:
Does anyone have any experience with DXM and piracetam interaction? On erowid, a segment said that people felt an enhanced mental clarity from nootropics, but I've heard people say that piracetam nulls the effects of dissocatives.

I also heard that piracetam is good for people who have had excessive DXM use, but I'm more interested in use of piracetam the same day as a big DXM dose.
I haven't noticed any interactions between DXM and piracetam.



As to the thread's original question:

Piracetam+...

MDXX - Fantastic. Just as Xorkoth described.

LSD - Take far, far less than you would normally take for a normal trip. Only combine when you are on your last few hits - take half a hit or less, even.

Shrooms - Same as LSD.

Cocaine - Crash is lessened. Effects are elevated and extended to the point where a fat line seems like an hour-long MDMA experience.

Alcohol - You don't need to drink as much to feel the effects, and hang-overs are practically gone.

Yohimbe - Almost like a low-dose Salvia trip. Peculiar mind spaces, cartoon-like alterations of visual field. Hot flashes and feelings of turning into a plant.

DXM - No effects noted.

Ether - Hallucinations and experience are remembered with greater ease, less confusion.

Pregnenolone - This combo seems to me to be psychedelic even without any adding to the mix any conventional drugs. Vivid colors, sharpness, contentedness, and appreciation not unlike that which is often experienced on mescaline.


Enjoy your piracetam :)
 
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