The Big & Dandy Psychedelic Piperazines Thread

Jamshyd

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It seems to me like I am the only Canadian on BL who is remotely interested in the little piperazine business going on on the other side of the world!

New piperazines have become available (mainly to Kiwis), and these seem to have psychedelic and psychedelic-like effects. I have not personally tried any of them but I have a sample of 4-MeOPP (the only one that interests me) that I intend to try at a low dose sometime soon. There seems to be others of this type too: TFMPP, mcPP, and p-FPP.

I would like to see an information thread about it, since there isn't much "objective" info on it, and very little subjective reports. Erowid's piperazine vaults are not impressive, and focus on BZP which is mostly a stim. and we will not include it in this thread (unless if taken in combination),

I guess I'm suggesting a "big and dandy" piperazines thread, but since it is currently very small and not-so dandy, we'll keep it an "info" thread.

Please feel free to post away both subjective reports and research that you find on any of these compounds. I will try to compile all the info I have and post it here when. Mods feel free to do whatever you see fit :)
 

Morninggloryseed

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Something about the piperazines really turns me off, although I certainly welcome a comprehensive thread... I know 4-MeOPP seems to have its fans, as well as its chlorine analogue. But the piperazines are the only group of compounds that seem to have far more negative reports than glowing…and that goes for all of them…BZP, TFMPP, combos of those, and others.

Another thing that weirds me away from them is there are (to the best of my knowledge) no ‘natural’ occurring piperazines. At least with the synthetic PEAs and IEAs, there are natural counterparts only a few atoms away. In fact, our most important neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, adrenalin) are PEAs and IEAs.).

Not so with the piperazines; I know of no transmitters related to them, and indeed I know of no naturally occurring piperazines. They just seem to ‘foreign’ to mess with. And yes, I know I am being a hypocrite here because (to be best of my knowledge) ketamine does not have any “natural” counterparts that are known, although I am very convinced the status will change one day. Salvinorin A shows how big of a surprise nature can throw at us. And indeed, maybe the status of the PPs will change then too…but for now I’ll admit ‘chemical suggestion’ has me turned off and I say YUCK to the PPs.
 

Morninggloryseed

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Also all of these piperazine derivatives give you a headache on comedown and some of them cause pretty severe nausea and vomiting in susceptible individuals, plus the ones with hallucinogenic effect feel mainly weird and creepy rather than an enjoyable trippy feeling. Thats the main reason that the NZ government has allowed them to remain legal so far, because the negative side effects are so prominant that at large or frequent doses you just mainly feel like crap, hence the abuse potential tends to be rather low...
Yeah, my sentiments from what I understand. Also, the headahce thing is pretty significant in that wiki states the PPs are known for causing headaches and have been used to investigate potential migrane drugs. These sound more like poison to me.
 

Jamshyd

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See, this quote goes to the heart of my interest in these compounds. Like you (and many others), my first reaction when I learned about Piperazines was "eugh, sounds like poison".

What really caught my attension was when the NZ government did their "R-18" thing a couple of years (I think?) ago. When a government - any government - makes a recreational drug explicitly legal, something has to be up!
 

Splatt

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Yeah, it's called trying to get people off "P" (meth/ice) and making money to help combat addictions. There wasn't any real extensive research involved I don't think. BZP will probably be banned in the next year anyway. Too bad Methylone wasn't approved by the government as an MDMA replacement, that would of been good.

I am not a chemist so how many steps is BZP away from Piperazine which is found in nature?

Anyways I will be trying McPP very soon. (Which is a pink powder, but apparently still 99%+ pure, as the impurities are only water or oxygen from the air.), and will be trying small to higher doses to test it out, see if it is useful at all as a recreational drug, or even a slight stimulant for non-recreational uses at lower doses. I don't feel the need to snort the stuff, although I may snort a tiny bit while peaking on it already. However, I know this sounds fucking stupid, but I am interested in IVing it as I hear IVing BZP is a pretty short lived but intense high, someone even said it goes through the body as quick as cocaine when injected, but that sounds totally wrong to me.
 

HeaT

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BZP is indeed more of a stimulant thatn anything (or a headache when combined with TFMPP, heh). I have heard both amazing and horrible things about mCPP and MeOPP, and pFPP is supposed to be quite intense, but have quite a body load and almost a shock factor to it.

mCPP is talked of as almost like MDMA; the same body feelings without the emotional part of MDMA, and almost trippy. Sort of like MDA. I believe they are much more "energetic" than MDMA and make you want to get up and move more.

MeOPP seems like a weak version of mCPP, that can never compare with it, but has very few negative effects. It is supposed to mix well with mCPP (creating an even more similar feeling to MDMA). However, it's large dosage turns me off for the moment, so experimentation will have to hold off.

Like I said, pFPP is supposed to be the 'trippiest' one out there. It is the most RC-like piperazine (as it is very new on the market, I think).

Now, piperazines are often referred to as 'toxic', mainly due to their stimulant effects, and the stomach discomfort they can cause. Vomiting on piperazines is not uncommon. Supposedly, the kiwis combat this with ginger, which is supposed to be a good remedy to piperazine nausea.

Now, speaking of natural piperazine substances, there aren't any that I'm aware of, but piperiDINE (a 6 molecule ring with 5 carbon and only ONE nitrogen, as opposed to two) is found in all sorts of natural compounds, namely pepper. It's also used in PCP synthesis, but that's pretty off topic.

I think the piperazine group is very promising, as many analogs are possible. Lots of research should be done on this group, and the most important thing, THEY'RE KNOWN TO BE RECREATIONAL, YET STILL LEGAL!! At least in one part of the world. The US hasn't scheduled a lot of piperazines (only BZP, I believe, which is a methyl-phenyl piperazine, and couldnt be considered an analog of phenylpiperazines like mCPP, pFPP, or MeOPP). This is a huge advantage. I really hope that more chemicals come on the market, and more research is done. Possibly a PiperIHKAL, heh. The basic structure can be modified as simply as PEAs or indoles, and phenylpiperazines show some properties similar to psychedelic amphetamines or PEAS.
 

Jamshyd

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Thanks for the info, HeaT! :).

Btw, I did notice that whoever is making these piperazines is trying to follow the same dacorum as shulgin's PEA modifications (though the logic behind it fails, really...

-----

Update:

I originally planned to take 50mg of 4-MeOPP orally. I dabbed a tiny bit of scale dust on my finger and licked it just to taste it. It tasted utterly horrifying!!. I decided fuck it - I'll take it rectally.

So I split it in two and took only 25mg rectally. There was a sudden and yucky alert, then there was a rather anxious, adrenergic comeup (not unlike gulping several espressos) that I took 3mg Bromazepam to augment. That went well, and when a plateau was reached (about T+1.5h) the anxiety went away and a fine, low-dose-dexedrine-like alertness was left with subtle hints of an MDMA-like (more like 4-FA actually, to be honest) body-high while the mind remained completely sober.

There was some empathogenesis, but it was very under-developed. By that I mean that the urge to express empathy might arise at some times, but it is almost always countered by an equal ammount of anxiety.

IF this shit doesn't give me a crash, then it might be worth further investigation on my behalf. If it does (and likely, it will :S), then I'll forget all about ingesting Piperazines and just read about them.

There was also a strong visual component (mainly tracers/trailers), however it lacked the depth of even PEAs, and is even not worth comparing to any Tryptamine visuals.

However, from the mental space I experienced, I do not expect this drug to be insightful in any way. Maybe good as a very occasional dumb-euphoriant, but thats about it.

I also cannot IMAGINE people taking 200mg and not having a heart attack!
 

HeaT

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I've heard of people taking up to 400mg of pure MeOPP and up to 150mg in combination with mCPP. I hear it takes a much more empathenogenic turn around 100-150mg, but I could be wrong. If you want to, you could try experimenting with higher doses. Oh, and hydration is more important on piperazines than MDMA, supposedly. Did you feel hot or dehydrated at all?

And about the modifications- they're going the same route because they work. They work because they mimick natural neurotransmitters, and those "special" groups (methylenedioxy, halogens, ethylamine, methoxy, etc.) give molecules higher affinity for certain receptors.
 

Jamshyd

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^ Yep, thanks for the tip. I made sure I carried water around with me all the time, so dehydration and heat where never an issue.

It is now about 6 hours since ingestion and I still feel alert and in a good mood, and nothing bad has happened. *fingers crossed*

It is definitely hard on the kidneys though - strong diuresis. I must say though, there was absolutely no nausea, but this might be due to my taking it rectally (and due to the dose being so small, I guess).

As for the modifications: They do seem to work for the most part, but I remember a post by F&B about the MDA-analogue of BZP being a complete failure. I'll try to find that post...
 

HeaT

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Well MeOPP is the least 'nauseous' of the piperazines, I highly doubt you'll have much of a comedown or negative after effects.

Good luck! :)
 

Jamshyd

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Piperazines are mostly quoted as having affinity for all of DA, NA, and 5-HT receptors, especially the latter. Bilzor suggests (with some evidence) that BZP might be a 5HT agonist in and of itself.
 

slippy sleeveen

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I have done extensive research with mCPP as of late and I'll tell you that is it definately psychedelic in nature. That being said, the psychedelic effects tend to differ between people. I would say that mCPP is much like a long lasting dose of MDA although there is a bit of a tight stomach on the come up, it is not all too bad. There is an extreme mood lift, and you definately get head rushes similar to MDMA. I am always EXTREMELY sensitive to the cold on mCPP, and I mean I REEAAAALLLLY feel the cold. The come up of mCPP always seems a bit tripper than the plateau, if that makes any sense. Once the plateau hits, you feel mentally sedated but yet physically stimulated. You will see tracers that go on forever, and I've honestly never seen my eyes so dilated before. The light enchancement was actually far greater than anything I can remember, and it seemed to persist on even when the drug seemed to wear off.

The key thing to remember with mCPP is that it effects everyone so differently. A friend of mine took 70mg and was tripping for 12 hours straight. He stated that it was a full blown trip that rivaled anything acid induced he has ever experienced before. He did this on the come down of some MDMA so this might of effected it.

Some friends of mine completely dodge the nausea during the come up. They enjoy it better than MDMA but use it for the same purpose. I use to think that taking too much simply led to the bad feeling but a friend of mine, against my advice, took 210mg at once and was rolling on the floor massaging himself, snuggled up next to a speaker with a perma-grin.

The come down has never been too bad for me from mCPP alone. It is always just hard to sleep but when I do sleep it is quite comfortable. I am always exhausted the night after.

That is about all I can say about right now, but if anyone has any questions about it I'll be more then happy to answer.

*On a side note, TFMPP induces horrible anxiety attacks with me, that persist on for weeks.
 

Splatt

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210mg or 120mg?? 210mg sounds like a huge dose.. I thought your report said he took 2 x 65mg caps.. I am probably wrong.
 

slippy sleeveen

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He took 3 65mg-70mg doses (I put it in the capsules and merit myself about a 5mg error)

You are correct, 210mg is a huge dose. I'm glad he managed it alright.
 

slippy sleeveen

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I posted this in trip reports but I believe it would be valid here as well:

I'll give everyone a brief run down of 10 friends of mine and myself that have tried it within the past two weeks. This is without bias and just the straight facts per what I saw, heard and felt.

Me: I initially mixed it with TFMPP which was stupid because TFMPP seems to give me panic attacks...that come and go for up to a week after ingestion. The first time I was smoothed out by the peak of the mcPP, which actually worked to induce enough euphoria to overcome the panic. The second time I tried it, I drank it with some juice..30mg initial dose and I dosed another 30mg an hour after the same way. The effects were pleasant but a bit mild. The third time I just bombed a 65mg capsule of it and had a blast. My stomach was kind of tight during the come up but after that it was quite pleasant.

A: Tried it with a shite load of codeine in his stomach. He took 30mg and said it felt like it sobered up his codeine high and he took another 30mg and an hour later stated he was "rolling" quite nicely... he was rubbing himself down, so I knew he was atleast feeling damn good .

B. Took 30mg and 30mg an hour later, stated it felt like MDMA but without the euphoric edge.

C. Crazy tit... he took 3 capsules with 65mg a piece in them, depsite being advised not to, but oddly enough felt no nausea and ended up on the floor next to the speakers with a perma-grin and one eye half open with the other closed. He said he had never felt so great physically, and that each bit of the music sent tingles through his body. On top of this, effects didn't fade until 7 hours after ingestion.

D. Never took MDMA before, took one 65mg capsule of mcPP and stated he felt "high as fuck" an hour in and would not stop laughing. No reported nausea.

E. Not experienced with MDMA either, took one 65mg capsule and in a very similar manner felt high, took a few hits of pot and stated she has never felt it so much before. No reported nausea either.

--Might be of value to know D. and E. are boyfriend/girlfriend--

The next 5 people all went to go see Tiesto and each took a 65mg capsule prior to entering.

F. Reported feeling horribly nauseas and that she wanted to throw up but couldn't. Ended up vomitting 3 hours in and said she felt much better after that.

G. No nausea and stated it felt like a strong dose of MDMA. Was dancing all through the set, enjoying himself.

H. No nausea and was very socialable. Jaw clench, stated it felt like MDMA but with a trippy side to it. (This I can see)

I. Slight stomach discomfort during the come up but after that said she had the time of her life. Stated she was "peaking" for 5 hours straight.

J. No reported nausea and said it felt like ecstasy but a bit more relaxed on the body.


There you have it. It seems that some people just get nauseas with this. If I would advise anything it would be to try it out with a dose less than 50mg and see how it reacts and then just go up from there until you find your ideal dosage. It is not nearly as forgiving as MDMA when it comes to dosage... the difference of 30mg could mean the difference between a night of bliss or a night of terror.


--


At a show, some friends and I each took about 70mg of mCPP. One of us felt good but not great so he wanted another 70mg about an hour and a half in, so he took another, and an hour later claimed to be on cloud 9. He stated he was rolling hard.

My other two friends had to sit away from the crowd and stated that they never rolled but just tripped. They said they had rather intense visuals and felt very introspective.

Most interestingly, another friend of mine took 70mg after coming down off some MDMA and alcohol, and had the most intense trip of his life. He is not a neophyte to the psychedelic world and told me that he was having a hard,hard, HARD +3 peak that lasted about 6 hours and the effects did not start subsiding until 12 hours in. He started to think this was 2C-T-7 instead.

I am beginning to believe that this substance more so resembles MDA than MDMA. There is little to no empathy on it, but there is a mood lift and definately a visual component. There are extreme tactile sensations as well. There is also a bit of a comfortable feeling with it that almost leads me to believe if I were comfortable enough I could fall to sleep on it, although I know I couldn't, my body is just THAT comfortable. Music appreciation is amplified to a level beyond MDMA and probably more similar to your typical psychedelics in that regard. I noticed that when listening to atmospheric music I was swamped with very nostalgiac landscapes in my mind's eye, and I was definately in a very care-free state of mind.

The anxiety that is caused by the come up of this substance could very well be caused by the misinformation out there about it. It is constantly compared to MDMA, and so when people take it and start getting the typical psychedelic onset shivers and crawling mental imagery, it probably sets people off in a bad way because it is not expected if it is to be something similar to MDMA. You can look at a light, close your eyes, and the light will reform itself multiple times in your CEV's. There is no simply ignoring the psychedelic aspect of this chemical so if you start feel overwhelmed then it could very well become messy. This is probably why I am always a bit anxious on the come up. Next time I will attempt this substance expecting more of a trip.

So, lets compare it to MDA. MDA tends to leave room for some negative thinking. This definately does too. The visuals.. hard to describe. MDA's visuals are a bit more apparent while mCPP's are more there but you are not exactly sure what you are seeing, if that makes any sense. Kind of odd...and I dare say, a bit discomforting. This is a bit subjective though, because like I have noted, some people seem to get actual breathing walls, morphing imagery, and other full on visuals from mCPP. The durations are of the two compounds are shockingly similar.

The key difference here is toxity. I cannot help but think that mCPP is somehow more damaging than either MDA or MDMA, or your typical psychedelic substance. It seems like my HPPD symptoms linger on quite a bit more and more intensely since my use of mCPP, and also, since my use, I've been having random spurs of panic attacks that hit when I stay up for a long time or am not in premium physical health. This could be from my use of TFMPP as well, or any number of things, because I have not heard this reported by anyone else before.
 
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