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The Big & Dandy Natural Psychotropics and Ethnobotanics Thread

^ ^ Mansoa alliacea & Maytenus spp.

Deinonychus, thank you for such an in-depth and kind post. It's given me a greater respect for the language we use here. My fuzzying the definitions of "psychedelic" and "psychoactive" (which I now take back) were attempts at highlighting the potential of these plants to change our conscious experience, no matter how indirectly. And thank you for spelling out *how* that happens biochemically.

I'm of the opinion that people can debate subject, disagree with one another, or even call eachother out, and yet do all of this within the parameters of civilized discourse and simple, common sense human decency. All too often, people conflate a disagreement on a topic with a dislike of the person they disagree with. This isn't limited to the Internet either, and sure, maybe it is indeed more common to have people take a disagreement into the realm of personal attacks when they have the pseudo-anonymity that the Internet provides as many social commentators claim, but this happens in real life too. A perfect and highly visible example would be the political parties in America. Our members of congress and senators are supposed to be level-headed, intelligent people, capable of meaningful dialogue and compromise. But instead they take their ideological differences as some sort of evidence that their opposite number is fundamentally wrong and morally bankrupt, and disagreements rapidly become personal grudges and vendettas where the object of attack is not a politician's policies but the politician's character.

We don't need to do that sort of nonsense here on Bluelight. I would say we don't need to do that type of nonsense at all but humans are humans, and mistaking philosophical differences for evidence of moral or mental bankruptcy is a fundamental part of human nature. With that said one of the goals – albeit unstated – of Bluelight is to facilitate personal growth, whether that is the result of learning accurate information about the substances we enjoy or whether that takes the form of learning how to disagree with people in a civilized fashion.

I also aim to encourage people to look at the more subtle aspects of their experience, the quieter effects of plants that we can gain from if we pay attention and quiet our minds. It is partially to counter what I see as prevalent inclination toward extreme states of mind, at least on Bluelight (200mg DMT, anyone?).

More is not always better. You are definitely correct that we (members of Bluelight that hang around here in PD) are often seemingly pursuing any number of 'holy grails'. One example of this is ego loss, holding it above all other forms of psychedelic experience and trumpeting its virtues as being 'the point' of tripping. I've seen this a lot, and the mindset that follows this pattern is the same mindset that talks up ultra high doses of psychedelics.

I do want to point out that you say " If something doesn't cross the BBB then it can't have any effects on the CNS, only the sympathomimetic systems. " But then later explain how these things will alter behavior. This makes sense, but here I would like to, if you'll allow me, to deliberately fuzzy the line between, or at least draw a solid line connecting behavior and perception. The things we do, and the things our bodies do involuntarily are inextricably related to what is going on in the brain, which you explain.

Yeah, I could have been more clear. I guess a better way to put it is that certain chemicals, like certain subsets of steroids, may affect behavior, but they do this in a roundabout way. Instead of directly acting upon the receptors in the brain they may alter the balances of various semiochemicals, signaling factors or hormones or what have you, which in turn alter the levels of other semiochemicals, and so on, with this chain of causality eventually reaching into the brain. And then the behavioral changes may be brought about, in an indirect fashion.

Connecting perception and behavior is a perfectly valid thing to do. They're both parts of the mess of feedback and feedforward loops that underlie our consciousness. I think it is worth mentioning though that there's a lot more to consciousness than just perception, with a lot of interaction between consciousness and our unconscious mental systems, and psychedelics act on the whole entirety of our minds, making no distinction between the conscious and unconscious parts of our psyche. Indeed, psychedelics seem to sort of blend the two together, blurring the edges so that you can't be sure where the one begins and the other ends, allowing input into our conscious minds from the portions of our psyches that are normally closed off behind the curtain.

In sum, I apologize for botching my definitions. I still would like to encourage exploration into these plants, even if they are not psychoactive by definition.

I don't think it was necessarily botching definitions, rather it's just that if we, speaking in the general sense of people engaged in a discussion, are going to be able to successfully carry out that discussion then there has to be some sort of consensus on what the various terms that may be used will mean. So if the definition of what is and is not psychedelic is going to get stretched in the course of a debate, that's fine, it's just important to make sure that everybody understands what's up, and is on the same page. And in this case I don't think that sort of consensus was there, so I pointed it out.

It's posts like yours why I like Bluelight so much.

Yeah, it's a badass website! If we all just try to post the best we can that sort of awesomeness can be sustained. Accordingly I'm nothing special, there's many, many more people on this forum that put just as much time and thought and effort into their posts, and that's why we end up returning here time and time again I would hypothesize.

---


There are indeed psychoactive steroids. Quite a few affect the GABAergic system (GABAa), such as pregnanolone (pregnEnolone is an antagonist, pregnAnalone is an agonist for the neurosteroid binding site on the GABAaR complex)

Also, things like alphaxalone, these obviously are BBB-penetrant, seeing as how they have been used clinically as general anaesthetics.

Fascinating, this I did not know! Good to learn something (preferably more than just one thing) new everyday, now I get to look stuff up about neurosteroids!

I would still say that everything that has a direct effect upon our consciousness must as a prerequisite cross the blood-brain barrier, not that you stated otherwise, just reiterating the point. If a steroid is active in the brain, as is the case with neurosteroids, then by definition it has passed through that barrier.
 
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avoiding all the discussion of semantics, but yeah, i do believe, even in this age of rational drug design, ethnopharmacology has not yet been totally played out as a source of new, potentially psychoactive compounds (and their analogs). interesting post, thank you. it makes you wonder what else could be out there.
 
^^ Sadly we're losing biodiversity at a truly astounding rate (think PT extinction), so we may never get to find out, and that would be a real shame.
 
Actually some neurosteroids are synthesized within the brain and do not need to pass the BBB.

But there are also the synthetic ones, which when administered, do produce central GABAergic effects.

And there is also a peripheral site that seems to regulate neurosteroid synthesis, the mitochondrial 18 kDa translocator protein, a 'peripheral' benzodiazepine receptor, which amongst numerous other functions, is apparently essential for the synthesis of neurosteroids in the brain, IIRC its involved in cholesterol transport, cholesterol being the starting point for steroid biosynthesis in mammals (insects and plants have quite different steroid biochemistry)
 
^^ Yeah when I looked the subject up I saw some mention of benzodiazepine receptors, with the caveat that certain neurosteroids that bind and modulate GABA are binding to a different location than benzos themselves. It wasn't particularly specific about whether they bind to a second active site or whether their action is more an allosteric kind of thing. Obviously it's not really possible to make any blanket statements about neurosteroids and benzodiazepine receptors but is be interested to know whether they do in fact bind to a second active site on a receptor or whether their effects are allosteric, as I haven't heard of receptors possessing multiple binding sites before.
 
Speaking of obscure psychedelic botanicals, have a look at this article from 1965 in Economic Botany: James Fadiman, Genista canariensis: A minor psychedelic (ECON BOT , vol. 19, no. 4, pp. 383-383, 1965)

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^ Wow, thanks for reporting that. Perhaps "minor psychedelic" is a term we could start using here?

My experience with Chuchuhuasi is similar to the herb described above; hypnogogic imagery before falling asleep, enhancement of visual perception (without visual distortions), psychological arousal, feelings of amiability toward others, and no "letdown." Chuchuhuasi and other "minor psychedelics" would make perfect adjuncts to other, more serious psychedelics, imo. For example, I would gladly take a swig of Chuchuhuasi with some mushrooms. In fact, Chuchuhuasi is very often added to Ayahuasca by Amazonian shamans.

And hey look, I just found this: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/30/chuchuhuasi-amazon-love-potion/
 
Great find ZFC!

rythmspring said:
Perhaps "minor psychedelic" is a term we could start using here?

It would be an interesting avenue of discussion. It could be all ponderous and slow, just the way a pipe/cigar smoking fellow like me prefers. The whiz-wham electronic extravaganza of alphabet soup psychedelics taken willy-nilly by reckless/feckless youth holds less appeal with each passing season.
 
The whiz-wham electronic extravaganza of alphabet soup psychedelics taken willy-nilly by reckless/feckless youth holds less appeal with each passing season.

Agreed. My most profound and healing psychedelic sessions were those that were serene and gentle, not the ones with mental fireworks.
 
Great find ZFC!



It would be an interesting avenue of discussion. It could be all ponderous and slow, just the way a pipe/cigar smoking fellow like me prefers. The whiz-wham electronic extravaganza of alphabet soup psychedelics taken willy-nilly by reckless/feckless youth holds less appeal with each passing season.

Great sentence man. I love alphabet soup though, I want a drug combination that has every letter of the alphabet in it!

We'll need some X and LSZ first...
 
To dig up a long lost thread so to speak...

Who of you here cultivates their own ethnobotanical species?

I grow and harvested recently from Calea Zacatechichi (leaf), Silene Capensis (measly root, and seed) and Salvia Div (leaf, flowers will probably amount to nothing) .. what I intend to do with them is another thing altogether ;)
 
Have we discovered any of Kratom's effects on vascular dilation, blood pressure, etc? It consistently stops my friend's nosebleeds, then when he comes off it, it's "nosebleed city" for a few days.
 
Have we discovered any of Kratom's effects on vascular dilation, blood pressure, etc? It consistently stops my friend's nosebleeds, then when he comes off it, it's "nosebleed city" for a few days.

Yes actives in kratom affect adrenergic receptors (mainly a2), and levels of norepinephrine and epinephrin are elevated in the body as a result. This besides anxiety also has vascular effects, tightening blood vessels / cappilaries such as in the nose, stopping the bleeds... Then coming off it, there may be some sort of rebound.

The stimulant action seems to be a bit complex, as is the makeup of actives in kratom. And some effects may be contradictory as a major effect is of course the painkilling opioid action, which expectedly lowers heartrate and blood pressure while the adrenaline type neurotransmitter (catecholamine) increase will make heartrate and blood pressure higher.

Not to mention serotonergic effects and secondary/downstream effects of the painkilling action, further complicating the matter.
 
Salvia can best be grown from cuttings, less than 2% of seeds are successful. Iboga root is the effective portion;it's always a collection issue but : Acacia acinacea also contain DMT;Acacia angustissima meo5dmt (DMT (0.00012-0.00102%) and N-methyltyramine (0.00011-0.005%) 5-MeO-DMT tentatively identified by TLC in seeds;Acacia auriculiformis 5meo in stem bark; Acacia berlandieri,Hordenine, tyramine and N-methyltyramine in leaves; 0.28-0.66% N-methylphenethylamine in leaves, other alkoloids suspected;Senegalia senegal 0.003% DMT in leaf;Acacia simplex (syn. A. simplicifolia) 3.6% alkaloids from leaves and stem bark (40% NMT, 22.5% DMT, 12.7% 2-methyl-tetrahydro-β-carboline, and traces of N-formyl-NMT which might be an artefact of extraction);Acacia roemeriana, 0.036% alkaloids from leaves, including β-methyl-phenethylamine, tyramine and N-methyl-tyramine; Hawaiian Baby Woodrose,Argyreia nervosa Seeds contain high amounts of LSA (also known as d-lysergic acid amide, d-lysergamide, ergine, and LA-111), often 50-150X the amounts found in Ipomoea violacea;;.Nymphaea caerulea Recent studies have shown Nymphaea caerulea to have psychedelic prop;;Leonotis leonurus- leaves and flowers (most concentrated) contain Leonurine. reminiscent of marijuana;;Blue Lotus (Egypt) DMT Dig them plants!!!
 
Don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but I've tried Blue Lotus tea

Yes, Blue Lotus... viewed as sacrament by Pharaohs, seen in art/glyphs & source of DMT. They know now cocaine has been found in mummy dna & that how could this be, with no contact was known to central / south America. I would think, with the sea faring abilities, a 2 week trade wind trip likely occurred via accident once or twice! As DMT seems to influences their ideas, might ayahuasca have rode over...off topic..lol.
 
I had 2 experiences with shrooms...in amsterdam 2005. I severely under estimated their power ate a whole box after loads of beers and spliffs in a place i have never been. The experiences have never left me and terrified me to the absolute point of still being so fresh i have never forgot the things i see.

There is a history of mental illness in my family i have never worked out if it is that or the fact i was out of it in a strange place when i ate them that gave me the experience they did. It was so powerful ever since i have sort of realised how futile the 9 to 5 is and i know there is something else. I know because i see it.

I am a normal 9 to 5 2 kids and mortgage life now but i have always wondered if now i am older i could tap into what i see and the feeling again.

But this time without the fear and worry and earth shattering realisations. Maybe i could enjoy it?

Any advice welcome.
 
^^ That cocaine analysis could never be repeated so I would take it with a grain of salt... also cocaine does not bind to DNA in particular. Not sure if you meant this but blue lotus is not a source of an active dose of DMT. I'd call it more of a dreamy (mildly visionary) sedative.
In blue lotus are compounds which act similarly to antipsychotics but also glaucine, which can produce sedation and mild hallucinogenic effects.

@ Steve: you might get better responses if you make your own thread or use the Big & Dandy mushrooms thread:
through here: http://bluelight.org/vb/threads/560442-The-Psychedelic-Index
here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/showthread.php?t=58587

In short: I am not hearing something that makes me suspect mental illness, merely based on your post. Something similar as what happened to you happened to many people on psychedelics. Deeply difficult and/or emotional experiences in general can leave a very deep imprint and vivid memory, and it can haunt people - we are wired like that in order to learn from potentially dangerous experiences.

It is also relatively common for psychedelics to make people more consciously aware of things in their life.

One thing which might be helpful to realize is explained by this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HH3LUAdqco I don't get my knowledge from channels like that but he has interesting insights and ways to put it which I couldn't reproduce so well put.

Basically it would be good if you put into perspective what happened to you, it was clearly a very bad mix of your set and setting and tapping into such a powerful experience with such bad planning/timing. This doesn't mean that it couldn't still be difficult if you start putting this into perspective, because you apparently still carry with you some level of trauma.. what I mean is even if you can rationalize it, it can take a longer time before your emotions about it change or quiet down a bit. When they do present themselves it is probably best you learn to work through it instead of avoiding, really see if you can hear what your feelings have to say.

Having been scared and confused in the past can be put behind you.. but make sure you are in a right spot mentally - your current sets & settings. There is still a lot about tripping you could discover which could feel like you open a universe-sized can of worms. And just remember that overcoming what you have been through in the past does not make you immune to losing your sense of self / space or time next time. Trips can just be mind-bending and reality warping, to not fall over you need to make sure you have a good and clear point of departure and arrival. Safety, a feeling of security... about yourself, about reality, anything..

Take some time to consider everything and work it out a bit, if you do decide to proceed start slow (low). And if you are actually concerned about mental health for other reasons, go through those concerns and potential issues you have or had to see if they are just normal, just quirky tendencies or actual signs of instability. And don't forget that natural psychedelics are much more difficult to dose accurately because potency (of mushrooms for example) varies. Acid would be another issue in terms of actually measuring what you have (or if it is even LSD). But you can use this forum to go over those specifics if you end up going there.
 
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Hey people, I love this thread...

I must refloat it..
I was searching some megathread or big n dandy stuff about Sceletium Tortuosum/Kanna and I found nothing.. so maybe it's not a bad idea to refloat this for a while since I consider kanna and mesembrine-type alkaloids one of the most interesting stuff of ethnobotanics.
I will try to do a good thread in a couple days, about those mesembrine-type alkaloids and at the moment I've found this article, that some of you may consider interesting:

"Twenty species from nine genera of the Mesembryanthemaceae (Aptenia, Bergeranthus, Delosperma, Drosanthemum, Glottiphyllum, Lampranthus, Oscularia, Ruschia, and Sceletium) as well as the reportedly psychoactive preparation ‘kougoed’, prepared from ‘fermenting’ Sceletium tortuosum, were screened for the presence of the mesembrine alkaloids."

But:

"However, using the technique employed in this study which encompassed the use of column and gas chromatography, the only genus containing mesembrine alkaloids to any significant extent was Aptenia. Alkaloid levels were found to be extremely low in all other taxa investigated. When a ‘modern’ technique for the preparation of a fermented Sceletium product, ‘kougoed’, was carried out it was found that levels, as well as the ratios, of the three alkaloids changed markedly. Substantial increases in total alkaloid levels were observed when the Sceletium material was crushed and bruised prior to drying for alkaloid extraction whereas no such changes occured when intact plants were oven dried at 80°C prior to alkaloid extraction. It is speculated that of the many potentially usable Mesembryanthemaceae plants available to the indigenous peoples, Sceletium was selected because it is the only genus with alkaloid levels high enough to elicit a psychoactive response. The traditional preparation technique also appears to have evolved as a method of producing a dry, stable, and relatively palatable preparation of increased pharmacological activity."

But...:
More research is needed to be done,
In other forums, like Shroomery, there's interesting and seemingly real reports of other plants having definite non-placebo effects, some of the taxa Delosperma, like Delosperma Bosseranum/cooperi and one that wasn't expected to me: Pleiospilos nelii or P. bolusii, a succulent very similar to Lithops. Those reports are quite old, around 2005, and the source where they seem to induce the presence of alkaloids as real are the Trout's notes
Do you know anything about this matter @G_Chem ???
 
Hey people, I love this thread...

I must refloat it..
I was searching some megathread or big n dandy stuff about Sceletium Tortuosum/Kanna and I found nothing.. so maybe it's not a bad idea to refloat this for a while since I consider kanna and mesembrine-type alkaloids one of the most interesting stuff of ethnobotanics.
I will try to do a good thread in a couple days, about those mesembrine-type alkaloids and at the moment I've found this article, that some of you may consider interesting:

"Twenty species from nine genera of the Mesembryanthemaceae (Aptenia, Bergeranthus, Delosperma, Drosanthemum, Glottiphyllum, Lampranthus, Oscularia, Ruschia, and Sceletium) as well as the reportedly psychoactive preparation ‘kougoed’, prepared from ‘fermenting’ Sceletium tortuosum, were screened for the presence of the mesembrine alkaloids."

But:

"However, using the technique employed in this study which encompassed the use of column and gas chromatography, the only genus containing mesembrine alkaloids to any significant extent was Aptenia. Alkaloid levels were found to be extremely low in all other taxa investigated. When a ‘modern’ technique for the preparation of a fermented Sceletium product, ‘kougoed’, was carried out it was found that levels, as well as the ratios, of the three alkaloids changed markedly. Substantial increases in total alkaloid levels were observed when the Sceletium material was crushed and bruised prior to drying for alkaloid extraction whereas no such changes occured when intact plants were oven dried at 80°C prior to alkaloid extraction. It is speculated that of the many potentially usable Mesembryanthemaceae plants available to the indigenous peoples, Sceletium was selected because it is the only genus with alkaloid levels high enough to elicit a psychoactive response. The traditional preparation technique also appears to have evolved as a method of producing a dry, stable, and relatively palatable preparation of increased pharmacological activity."

But...:
More research is needed to be done,
In other forums, like Shroomery, there's interesting and seemingly real reports of other plants having definite non-placebo effects, some of the taxa Delosperma, like Delosperma Bosseranum/cooperi and one that wasn't expected to me: Pleiospilos nelii or P. bolusii, a succulent very similar to Lithops. Those reports are quite old, around 2005, and the source where they seem to induce the presence of alkaloids as real are the Trout's notes
Do you know anything about this matter @G_Chem ???

Hey man,

I’ll respond more later (and if not remind me please) but this is mostly news to me. This research analyzing the products of fermentation is just plain awesome!

The only genus name that really sticks out is Delosperma, which I actually have an old extract I made from D. cooperi (sp?) which was supposed to possibly have 5-MeO-DMT. I’ve yet to try it but it’s been in my possession since 2017.

Maybe this is the trick to make Kanna work well?

-GC
 
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