The Big & Dandy 4-MeO-PCP Thread 2 - 4-MeO, 4-MeO, wherefore art thou 4-MeO?
- Thread starter Thorns Have Roses
- Start date
crOOk
Bluelighter
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- Dec 16, 2004
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They might, I personally couldn't tell you for sure though. However, read what I replied to megakaka below.
Many antiglutamatergic dissociates lower your tolerance to various drugs, among them opioidergic drugs it seems. Glad to hear you are are still alive and kicking!
took a 20mg line of this on 100mg mxe and put a laser through my brain..
intense perfect perception, adrenaline and confidence, that turned into a too long, achey headache run in..
not sure if was just dehydrated..
ive gone through this stuff before but its been a while and dont remember it giving this much of a kick as it did
also i will never snort this again, unless i can make a solution. nor i.v. i.m. as it prob burns just as much but i do put just about everything in my butt
also last well into the next day 24 hours now.. afterglow and/or metabolites?
---
after another go and with tolerance its just an other dissociate and to me all act the same if you will it,
yes the profiles of these drugs vary from manic to sedating or lacking in creativity, spirituality and depth
but combined with the right things like daily vitamins it all stacks swell
my go to remains methoxetamine - the variations in mixtures and batches
make an already encompassing drug class, have an even deeper hole spectrum to pursue
intense perfect perception, adrenaline and confidence, that turned into a too long, achey headache run in..
not sure if was just dehydrated..
ive gone through this stuff before but its been a while and dont remember it giving this much of a kick as it did
also i will never snort this again, unless i can make a solution. nor i.v. i.m. as it prob burns just as much but i do put just about everything in my butt
also last well into the next day 24 hours now.. afterglow and/or metabolites?
---
after another go and with tolerance its just an other dissociate and to me all act the same if you will it,
yes the profiles of these drugs vary from manic to sedating or lacking in creativity, spirituality and depth
but combined with the right things like daily vitamins it all stacks swell
my go to remains methoxetamine - the variations in mixtures and batches
make an already encompassing drug class, have an even deeper hole spectrum to pursue
Last edited:
Old Scratch
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2016
- Messages
- 13
So, this is my first post and it is about a technical point in question. I would hope that most of you would view any idea presented to you with some degree of skepticism, and especially any which may have a serious impact on your long term mental and physical health. What prompted me to register and post here today is the PCC question. This post is then about chemistry but is not intended to be instructive in terms of performing the chemistry. If you need said instruction, you probably have no business performing the reaction anyways.
With any chemical entity structure is everything and arriving at the correct structure is the art of chemistry, in a nutshell. With these compounds (PCP-like and ketamine-like substances) what we are looking at is a couple of ring structures bound together by carbon-carbon bonds. There is a rather famous reaction which is generally used to accomplish this and a type of compound called a nitrile is a way of accomplishing this. If you do look at the methods for creating these compounds, you will see that nitriles are employed for ketamine as well. While the other compound that the ketamine nitrile is bound to is different. At this point ketamine, MXE (which is effectively ketamine with a methoxy rather than a chlorine, which is in a different ring position than in ketamine, and an ethyl rather than a methyl group,) and the substituted PCP compounds (or the parent compound itself) are all rather similar. That is they are a substituted ring with a cyanide group. Now which ring has this nitrile group is different with the PCP compounds vs the ketamine-like ones, but this type of compound is there. It is this intermediate which is the problematic contaminate. Whether the nitrile from the ketamine-like substances is (as) toxic may or may not have ever been investigated. In chemistry there is a thing called Le Chatelier's principle which is basically a way of examining chemical equilibrium, ie when does the reaction stop? In this case anything less than 100% of the nitrile (PCC) reacting is a bad thing. To make sure that this happens, an excess of the other agent must be used. This turns into a cost/profit issue for the lab making it in the 1st place. The other issue is that the reaction in question is highly sensitive towards water. This may also contribute to some issues. Now the rest of the reaction for PCP compounds vs ketamine compounds is different in a few aspects. There is a chance that some of the steps might convert the nitrile into something else that is more easily removed from the final product. Without analysis though, that is conjecture. Also the nitrile for the PCP compounds is formed from different compounds than what go into ketamine or MXE. At least used to, most of the ketamine was diverted from legitimate sources. Vs the "god knows who actually made this" factor associated with grey market compounds. In terms of toxicity, from the 76' Shulgin paper mentioned in the Big and Dandy 4-MEO-PCP thread, and available on Erowid, it sounds like a large amount of the negative effects traditionally attributed to PCP may have actually come from the PCC impurity. In the aforementioned research paper, it goes on to say that about 20% of the PCP analysed by govt forensic labs contained this impurity. Also, from the description of the side effects, it seems safe to say that there is more going on than just free cyanide being generated. Look at the descriptions of both if you don't believe me. In fact take Levar's advice and don't take my word for any of this. Do your own homework.
A few years ago, I got to see a presentation of Dr. David Nichols. He was presenting on how structures at the 2,5 position on a phenethylamine predicted biological activity. I asked him how structure might also predict toxicity regarding the very substances in question. He said that structure alone would not elucidate this. After the presentation I asked him what would predict toxicity. He said that toxicity was a fairly unique effect, that a certain series of biochemical events had to be followed for it to occur and that only a systems approach could begin to reveal this. Think about how the 2 carbon and 3 carbon phenethylamines with 2,5 substitutions and a 4 substitution follow similar behavior, ie DOB and 2C-B are both potent psychedelics and most of the 2C-x's and DOx's following similar patterns with the DOx's being more potent gram:gram. Well then look at the fact that the NBOME substitution renders the DOx's inactive while the 2C-x's become much more potent. It seems odd from a structural standpoint, but that simply goes to show that structure really does dictate everything. Just look at how methamphetamine is a potent psychostimulant when that 3rd carbon tilts one way and a decongestant when it tilts the other way.
In short, PCC is there because it is a common building block and it shows up in the final product because of sloppy chemistry. PCC's toxicity is no small matter, data suggests that you become more sensitive to it over time, and if it is a problem with the quantity of material consumed for an active dose of PCP-classic, it is absolutely a problem with the exponentially higher doses consumed with the substance in question.
I hope that I have kept this on the informative side of things and haven't crossed any lines by making it seem instructive. I love dissociatives, but I also love my brain. After reading the majority of the 31 pages of the BD 4-MEO thread plus this one, I just felt like this was warranted.
With any chemical entity structure is everything and arriving at the correct structure is the art of chemistry, in a nutshell. With these compounds (PCP-like and ketamine-like substances) what we are looking at is a couple of ring structures bound together by carbon-carbon bonds. There is a rather famous reaction which is generally used to accomplish this and a type of compound called a nitrile is a way of accomplishing this. If you do look at the methods for creating these compounds, you will see that nitriles are employed for ketamine as well. While the other compound that the ketamine nitrile is bound to is different. At this point ketamine, MXE (which is effectively ketamine with a methoxy rather than a chlorine, which is in a different ring position than in ketamine, and an ethyl rather than a methyl group,) and the substituted PCP compounds (or the parent compound itself) are all rather similar. That is they are a substituted ring with a cyanide group. Now which ring has this nitrile group is different with the PCP compounds vs the ketamine-like ones, but this type of compound is there. It is this intermediate which is the problematic contaminate. Whether the nitrile from the ketamine-like substances is (as) toxic may or may not have ever been investigated. In chemistry there is a thing called Le Chatelier's principle which is basically a way of examining chemical equilibrium, ie when does the reaction stop? In this case anything less than 100% of the nitrile (PCC) reacting is a bad thing. To make sure that this happens, an excess of the other agent must be used. This turns into a cost/profit issue for the lab making it in the 1st place. The other issue is that the reaction in question is highly sensitive towards water. This may also contribute to some issues. Now the rest of the reaction for PCP compounds vs ketamine compounds is different in a few aspects. There is a chance that some of the steps might convert the nitrile into something else that is more easily removed from the final product. Without analysis though, that is conjecture. Also the nitrile for the PCP compounds is formed from different compounds than what go into ketamine or MXE. At least used to, most of the ketamine was diverted from legitimate sources. Vs the "god knows who actually made this" factor associated with grey market compounds. In terms of toxicity, from the 76' Shulgin paper mentioned in the Big and Dandy 4-MEO-PCP thread, and available on Erowid, it sounds like a large amount of the negative effects traditionally attributed to PCP may have actually come from the PCC impurity. In the aforementioned research paper, it goes on to say that about 20% of the PCP analysed by govt forensic labs contained this impurity. Also, from the description of the side effects, it seems safe to say that there is more going on than just free cyanide being generated. Look at the descriptions of both if you don't believe me. In fact take Levar's advice and don't take my word for any of this. Do your own homework.
A few years ago, I got to see a presentation of Dr. David Nichols. He was presenting on how structures at the 2,5 position on a phenethylamine predicted biological activity. I asked him how structure might also predict toxicity regarding the very substances in question. He said that structure alone would not elucidate this. After the presentation I asked him what would predict toxicity. He said that toxicity was a fairly unique effect, that a certain series of biochemical events had to be followed for it to occur and that only a systems approach could begin to reveal this. Think about how the 2 carbon and 3 carbon phenethylamines with 2,5 substitutions and a 4 substitution follow similar behavior, ie DOB and 2C-B are both potent psychedelics and most of the 2C-x's and DOx's following similar patterns with the DOx's being more potent gram:gram. Well then look at the fact that the NBOME substitution renders the DOx's inactive while the 2C-x's become much more potent. It seems odd from a structural standpoint, but that simply goes to show that structure really does dictate everything. Just look at how methamphetamine is a potent psychostimulant when that 3rd carbon tilts one way and a decongestant when it tilts the other way.
In short, PCC is there because it is a common building block and it shows up in the final product because of sloppy chemistry. PCC's toxicity is no small matter, data suggests that you become more sensitive to it over time, and if it is a problem with the quantity of material consumed for an active dose of PCP-classic, it is absolutely a problem with the exponentially higher doses consumed with the substance in question.
I hope that I have kept this on the informative side of things and haven't crossed any lines by making it seem instructive. I love dissociatives, but I also love my brain. After reading the majority of the 31 pages of the BD 4-MEO thread plus this one, I just felt like this was warranted.
Last edited:
Dr Mamba
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2010
- Messages
- 247
It was the first RC disso available, sort of miss it now.
The nordic seller died in a famous way, do allergie test kids.
It was a time where I was a keta beginer, but keta was not available here in raves, only in Italy and UK.
The only dissos in rave here was N2O, ether was available, but not used, thanks cause it dont go well with fire and that bunch of pot smokers :D
They said later "keta killed the tekno scene", it may be true, I dunno.
Back to topic !
It was very long lasting, very anesthetic, sort of hole ..., very cold and clinical, almost unpleasant.
I took it 2 times, didn't finished the bag as it was so fare away from the pleasant ketamine.
So now that my main goal is managing disso craving without mania, I sort of miss it.
May be if I took it now I could like it, I dont know.
What I remember is that is was not safe at all :
when I just imagine kids driving there cars 2h after taking 4meoPCP, it gives me shivers.
my 2cents
The nordic seller died in a famous way, do allergie test kids.
It was a time where I was a keta beginer, but keta was not available here in raves, only in Italy and UK.
The only dissos in rave here was N2O, ether was available, but not used, thanks cause it dont go well with fire and that bunch of pot smokers :D
They said later "keta killed the tekno scene", it may be true, I dunno.
Back to topic !
It was very long lasting, very anesthetic, sort of hole ..., very cold and clinical, almost unpleasant.
I took it 2 times, didn't finished the bag as it was so fare away from the pleasant ketamine.
So now that my main goal is managing disso craving without mania, I sort of miss it.
May be if I took it now I could like it, I dont know.
What I remember is that is was not safe at all :
when I just imagine kids driving there cars 2h after taking 4meoPCP, it gives me shivers.
my 2cents