Me too. If the compound is inactive, i'm sure they we're not aware. You don't send out bunk samples on purpose.
Tryptamines The Big & Dandy 4-HO-MPT Thread
- Thread starter CaptainAmerica
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Me too. If the compound is inactive, i'm sure they we're not aware. You don't send out bunk samples on purpose.
Yeah exactly o well lets hope 5-methyl-mda is infinitely better.
Ya and ironically one says its bunk hahah
DwayneHoover
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I admit I was wishing for an interesting enjoyable new substance, so I am just reaching here, seeking an explanation that encompasses activity by Clear Creme & Captain America as well as inactivity by psood0nym....
Tyrpatamines, extremely active ones like 4-aco-dipt, hit quick and induce strong tolerance. Perhaps the anal dose was ineffectively absorbed due to, um, "anal contents", ahem, but enough absorbed to induce a tolerance effect, rendering the other doses moot?
Of course that doesn't really explain merrskis's lack of effects. Then again, he at first reported effects, then seems to have changed his mind and wrote it all off to the hash... hmm... insufficient initial dose causing rapid tolerance rendering redoses impotent, combined with botting out of ability to clearly feel effect by hash (which can be REALLY REALLY strong and zoning so this could be an issue), combined with "group bias" effect???
Placebo can work the other way too you know... you can be so convinced nothing is going to happen that you psyche yourself into "blocking" the effects on a mental level.
psood0nym, then maybe you were "really" hallucinating that you were NOT hallucinating, haha...
My Oh My we're really going down the rabbit hole now!Again... I admit I am grasping at straws, wishing for a new thing to try, hoping the 1st 2 reports are true, and then trying to "explain" the reports of "nothing."
If you look at my first post I did report feeling effects, but the level of effects is consistent with placebo effects. I then redosed two more times within that hour for a total of 40 mg assuming I would get something more tangible, and the "effects," as vague as they were, never increased. I then IM'd 30 mg at once and experienced no increase in effects. Then I finished the rest off orally. What other 4-sub tryptamine with activity at 10 mg orally would allow one to continue feeling only vague threshold effects, posting and doing homework as I was, at 10 times the dose as others (mostly taken through ROAs that are usually more potent than oral), when their response to other tryptamines is in the normal dosage range?
Also, what other 4-sub tryptamine takes 2 hours to peak as ClearCreme reported? This freebase converted to acetate in about 1 minute in vinegar. It shouldn't take much longer to convert to HCl and absorb in one's stomach, so the fact that it's freebase doesn't account for such an unexpected delay.
Even if I was somehow psychologically blocking the effects it would be the first time I've been successful at doing so in 13 years of psychedelic use, not to mention one would think the cognitive load of the unconscious effort needed to ignore a dose 10 times larger than that needed for others to experience psychedelic effects would interfere with me making coherent posts and doing statistics homework, right? Regarding the supposition of tolerance development from my early doses: what other 4-sub-tryptamine shows tolerance development so quick and severe to cover 10 times an active dose? Plus I assume when merrskis says he finished off the rest of his that means he had a total of 50 mg. He also started with 18 mg orally, almost twice the dose of the other's first oral doses. So if merrskis finished all of his that means he had 5 times the dose of others and never felt more than effects that are of the type that placebo and the hash he was smoking can explain. Also, the initial report of 4-ho-MPT being like a cross between 4-ho-DiPT and 4-ho-MET mentioned towards the beginning of this thread has since been revealed to be based on mere theorizing rather than an actual trial.
I wanted there to be effects and expected there to be like everyone else. The difference is that only two posters, myself and presumably merrskis, have taken a dose where the effects should have been overwhelming and undeniable given the reported 10 mg active dose. I was second guessing myself all night thinking "maybe I am tripping a little" because others had reported activity, I wanted there to be, and knew what I was "supposed" to be feeling. The problem is that at 100 mg total I see no plausible reason that there should be any "maybe" or "little" about it.
Regarding why I got 100 mg instead of a 50 mg sample: I didn't really think anything of dropping $35 and knew the vendor was legit. I wasn't even aware samples were still being given away. Hell, it's conceivable the vendor themselves may have experienced placebo effects based off expectancy from Shulgin's reported activity (BTW vertigo and mild visual distortions are what one might expect from placebo, too) with a small dose and figured "Ok, it's active, I'll sell it."
Finally, check out the 2006 John Hopkins psilocybin study. There were numerous instances of people receiving ritalin and having full blown mystical experiences that they counted as among the most significant experiences of their life (not nearly as many as those who actually received psilocybin, but nevertheless they had very powerful experiences). These people had those experiences because others were having them and because they expected to and wanted to. Presumably they had never experienced anything like it, yet they concocted a novel and profound experience from ritalin. Placebo is sufficient to explain what happened in this thread.
Also, what other 4-sub tryptamine takes 2 hours to peak as ClearCreme reported? This freebase converted to acetate in about 1 minute in vinegar. It shouldn't take much longer to convert to HCl and absorb in one's stomach, so the fact that it's freebase doesn't account for such an unexpected delay.
Even if I was somehow psychologically blocking the effects it would be the first time I've been successful at doing so in 13 years of psychedelic use, not to mention one would think the cognitive load of the unconscious effort needed to ignore a dose 10 times larger than that needed for others to experience psychedelic effects would interfere with me making coherent posts and doing statistics homework, right? Regarding the supposition of tolerance development from my early doses: what other 4-sub-tryptamine shows tolerance development so quick and severe to cover 10 times an active dose? Plus I assume when merrskis says he finished off the rest of his that means he had a total of 50 mg. He also started with 18 mg orally, almost twice the dose of the other's first oral doses. So if merrskis finished all of his that means he had 5 times the dose of others and never felt more than effects that are of the type that placebo and the hash he was smoking can explain. Also, the initial report of 4-ho-MPT being like a cross between 4-ho-DiPT and 4-ho-MET mentioned towards the beginning of this thread has since been revealed to be based on mere theorizing rather than an actual trial.
I wanted there to be effects and expected there to be like everyone else. The difference is that only two posters, myself and presumably merrskis, have taken a dose where the effects should have been overwhelming and undeniable given the reported 10 mg active dose. I was second guessing myself all night thinking "maybe I am tripping a little" because others had reported activity, I wanted there to be, and knew what I was "supposed" to be feeling. The problem is that at 100 mg total I see no plausible reason that there should be any "maybe" or "little" about it.
Regarding why I got 100 mg instead of a 50 mg sample: I didn't really think anything of dropping $35 and knew the vendor was legit. I wasn't even aware samples were still being given away. Hell, it's conceivable the vendor themselves may have experienced placebo effects based off expectancy from Shulgin's reported activity (BTW vertigo and mild visual distortions are what one might expect from placebo, too) with a small dose and figured "Ok, it's active, I'll sell it."
Finally, check out the 2006 John Hopkins psilocybin study. There were numerous instances of people receiving ritalin and having full blown mystical experiences that they counted as among the most significant experiences of their life (not nearly as many as those who actually received psilocybin, but nevertheless they had very powerful experiences). These people had those experiences because others were having them and because they expected to and wanted to. Presumably they had never experienced anything like it, yet they concocted a novel and profound experience from ritalin. Placebo is sufficient to explain what happened in this thread.
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Well to be honest until I had consumed the compound I had not doubted its activity at all, so my expectations definitely could have played into the placebo effect. I smoke weeed/hash pretty much all day throughout the day so Im quite the experienced stoner with quite a high tolerence. The body feeling definitely didnt feel tryptamine-y which is why I was confused at first and continued to redose. Even if this compound is active in the slightest bit, it is still completely undewhelming and I would find it not worthwhile. So far me and psoo have tried every ROA to no avail, and to clarify I ended up consuming 30mg oral and 20mg insufflated.I admit I was wishing for an interesting enjoyable new substance, so I am just reaching here, seeking an explanation that encompasses activity by Clear Creme & Captain America as well as inactivity by psood0nym....
Tyrpatamines, extremely active ones like 4-aco-dipt, hit quick and induce strong tolerance. Perhaps the anal dose was ineffectively absorbed due to, um, "anal contents", ahem, but enough absorbed to induce a tolerance effect, rendering the other doses moot?
Of course that doesn't really explain merrskis's lack of effects. Then again, he at first reported effects, then seems to have changed his mind and wrote it all off to the hash... hmm... insufficient initial dose causing rapid tolerance rendering redoses impotent, combined with botting out of ability to clearly feel effect by hash (which can be REALLY REALLY strong and zoning so this could be an issue), combined with "group bias" effect???
Placebo can work the other way too you know... you can be so convinced nothing is going to happen that you psyche yourself into "blocking" the effects on a mental level.
psood0nym, then maybe you were "really" hallucinating that you were NOT hallucinating, haha...
Again... I admit I am grasping at straws, wishing for a new thing to try, hoping the 1st 2 reports are true, and then trying to "explain" the reports of "nothing."
DwayneHoover
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I dont understand why you guys ascribe much meaning to all your multiple redoses, regardless of ROI. Whenever I have redosed tryptamines, I have found a VERY strong tolerance had already set in and the redoses were exponentially LESS effective. That's an aspect of both your reports, and an odd COMMON feature to both that leaves me scratching my head a little.
Also, the one time I tried plugging, methylone I KNEW to be orally active, got zero effects, so I dont think that doing things that way automatically always gives the ultimate absorption profile to plugging that is often presumed.
Also, the one time I tried plugging, methylone I KNEW to be orally active, got zero effects, so I dont think that doing things that way automatically always gives the ultimate absorption profile to plugging that is often presumed.
I dont understand whats so difficult to believe. We took a drug. We didn't feel the drug. Leading us to conclude that the drug is inactive. Same thing happens when you take bunk pills, I know its happened to people I know, they take it and say they feel it despite the fact that they are bunk. Theres no reason my 18mg original dose should have yielded less results than the previous 10mg doses. BTW it was on an empty stomach
DwayneHoover
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Well I am just playing devils advocate here, trying to elicit more discussion.
Can you think of any alternate explanations as to why CC and CA felt what was to them extremely active, obviously non-placebo effects... and you did not?
Can you think of any alternate explanations as to why CC and CA felt what was to them extremely active, obviously non-placebo effects... and you did not?
Well Dwayne, I don't really understand the meaning you ascribe to a single ineffective trial of a plugged dose of a non-tryptamine monoamine releaser generalizing to a plugged tryptamine experience. And if you're so certain "tolerance" is sufficient to explain how 10 times the reported active dose of a class of chemical (tryptamines) established as being effectively absorbed rectally could be taken without getting more than threshold effects then by all means take 10 mg of 4-AcO-DMT, followed two hours later by 90 mg, then go take a test or do some other cognitively demanding work as I did without it making a difference. Lets see if you really believe your claim about "exponential" tolerance quickly developing to tryptamines at dosage levels that are subjectively threshold at best.
Also, please don't post in other forums that merrskis did a "180" in his opinion and state he did so simply to line up with mine when he did double the reported effective dose orally initially and posted that he wanted to push it higher before I even posted about suspected inactivity. I'm pretty sure that's you in that other forum, or is the methylone plugging story posted there just a coincidence? Clearly mirrskis wasn't getting much in the first place either or he wouldn't have wanted to redose.
You're not simply trying to stimulate conversation or playing devil's advocate when you go to other forums trying to undermine people's experiences at dosages numerous times greater than the reported active dose and opine that one of them is simply conforming to the idea of non-activity when non-activity is the opposite of what we were all expecting. Who conforms to a minority opinion that's not in line with what they expect and desire to believe? You're waging a war of public opinion covertly without having even tried the chemical yourself. If you just said lets wait for more reports I'd be more inclined to let it slide because it's not TOTALLY impossible our experiences were flukes (just very unlikely), but it's clear you have more invested in this argument for some inexplicable reason.
You want an explanation for why others experienced more? What was my posting about people having mystical experiences they counted as among the most significant experiences in their life from ritalin in my last post if not an explanation? Why is it that that didn't register for you? You're ignoring evidence and plausible reasons that don't fit with what you want to believe. Both merrskis and myself WANTED to believe we'd trip but couldn't deny the evidence. So what's your excuse for ignoring it?
Also, please don't post in other forums that merrskis did a "180" in his opinion and state he did so simply to line up with mine when he did double the reported effective dose orally initially and posted that he wanted to push it higher before I even posted about suspected inactivity. I'm pretty sure that's you in that other forum, or is the methylone plugging story posted there just a coincidence? Clearly mirrskis wasn't getting much in the first place either or he wouldn't have wanted to redose.
You're not simply trying to stimulate conversation or playing devil's advocate when you go to other forums trying to undermine people's experiences at dosages numerous times greater than the reported active dose and opine that one of them is simply conforming to the idea of non-activity when non-activity is the opposite of what we were all expecting. Who conforms to a minority opinion that's not in line with what they expect and desire to believe? You're waging a war of public opinion covertly without having even tried the chemical yourself. If you just said lets wait for more reports I'd be more inclined to let it slide because it's not TOTALLY impossible our experiences were flukes (just very unlikely), but it's clear you have more invested in this argument for some inexplicable reason.
You want an explanation for why others experienced more? What was my posting about people having mystical experiences they counted as among the most significant experiences in their life from ritalin in my last post if not an explanation? Why is it that that didn't register for you? You're ignoring evidence and plausible reasons that don't fit with what you want to believe. Both merrskis and myself WANTED to believe we'd trip but couldn't deny the evidence. So what's your excuse for ignoring it?
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CaptainAmerica
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I think we need to wait for my reports to come out.
I've taken bunk LSD on 3 occasions. And as much as I would have loved to trip, 1, 2, even 3 hours in, it didn't happen...
psood0nym: I'm well aware of the John Hopkins Study, very interesting you brought that up. What is interesting though is that the placebo in that study was still a drug, therefore it still had affects on the CNS. I guarantee that if the placebo was a sugar-pill instead of ritalin, that the results would be completely different.
Only time will tell, I'll let everyone know how my 2nd trial goes this weekend.
I've taken bunk LSD on 3 occasions. And as much as I would have loved to trip, 1, 2, even 3 hours in, it didn't happen...
psood0nym: I'm well aware of the John Hopkins Study, very interesting you brought that up. What is interesting though is that the placebo in that study was still a drug, therefore it still had affects on the CNS. I guarantee that if the placebo was a sugar-pill instead of ritalin, that the results would be completely different.
Only time will tell, I'll let everyone know how my 2nd trial goes this weekend.
I thought it was active because thats what I had anticipated. It was placebo, I had no problems sleeping, no dialated pupils at any point. I was stoned but thats normal for me, im stoned 80% of the time im awake, you just sound like you have no tolerance. Why would I feel the urge to redose (what I believed to be) a psychedelic, which I never do, let alone had taken a dosage double what anyone had posted yet. I redosed one hour in because I thought the experience was rather lackluster and usually when I have to question if im tripping or not then Im definitely not. I was going by cremes report and wanted to experience more than what he did. Why would I not want to trip off of such a rare tryptamine? It sounds like you guys either dont want to look like fools and are just trying to save face or are shills.
CaptainAmerica
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Just wanna put this out there, I used to only take high doses when I tripped, 18+mg 2c-e, 30mg 4-aco-dmt, 3-4 hits.
Now since I trip much less often I'm all about the 1 hit LSD or 10mg 2c-e.
Just a thought...
Now since I trip much less often I'm all about the 1 hit LSD or 10mg 2c-e.
Just a thought...
DwayneHoover
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psood0nym dont get your panties in a bunch, as they say.
I am not trying to incite anything. Just posting what comes to mind as it comes to mind. I have no vested interests, you're being paranoid.
As someone who has not tried it and was about to order it, I do have an interest. But I am now in a quandry because I see 2 people who tried it and got rather strong results. And 2 people who tried it and got zilch.
But despite your arguments that I should believe you because... what? the ubiquitous and irresistible power of the placebo effect? I see no reason to believe either result set over the other. They are both just text on a computer screen by people I do not know in person. So to be perfectly objective about it, from my perspective it's all still a big question mark.
Hopefully we will get more reports.
I am not trying to incite anything. Just posting what comes to mind as it comes to mind. I have no vested interests, you're being paranoid.
As someone who has not tried it and was about to order it, I do have an interest. But I am now in a quandry because I see 2 people who tried it and got rather strong results. And 2 people who tried it and got zilch.
But despite your arguments that I should believe you because... what? the ubiquitous and irresistible power of the placebo effect? I see no reason to believe either result set over the other. They are both just text on a computer screen by people I do not know in person. So to be perfectly objective about it, from my perspective it's all still a big question mark.
Hopefully we will get more reports.
CaptainAmerica
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I very much agree.
Clear Creme
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Seconded on the agreeing
I'm not trying to defend myself in fear of looking like a fool. I wrote a report to describe my experience, and my words are the best i can offer. Maybe it seems that I'm defensive only because you are so forward?
I would rather talk about why the chemical would or would not work. Similar compounds such as 4-ho-met, 4-ho-dpt, etc are found to be active. There was some reports too on MPT, being active around 100mg. Anyone with scientific knowledge that can chime in?
I'm not trying to defend myself in fear of looking like a fool. I wrote a report to describe my experience, and my words are the best i can offer. Maybe it seems that I'm defensive only because you are so forward?
I would rather talk about why the chemical would or would not work. Similar compounds such as 4-ho-met, 4-ho-dpt, etc are found to be active. There was some reports too on MPT, being active around 100mg. Anyone with scientific knowledge that can chime in?
allium
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Let's just wait for more reports.
psood0nym, your point of view does make sense, however why can't you have predisposed tolerance to 4-HO-MPT? I read so many times about people not getting any effects from 10 mg(or even more) of 2C-I, whereas 10 mg pushes me to clearly psychedelic state, and 2-3 mg is a threshold.
psood0nym, your point of view does make sense, however why can't you have predisposed tolerance to 4-HO-MPT? I read so many times about people not getting any effects from 10 mg(or even more) of 2C-I, whereas 10 mg pushes me to clearly psychedelic state, and 2-3 mg is a threshold.
Yes, this is strange. 4-HO-DPT described as good psychedelic, but its (oral) dosages are rather high, albeit lower than psood0nym's 4-HO-MPT dose.
fractal fountain
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Maybe this 4-ho-mpt being on the market is to let us plainfolk know what it was like for Shulgin whenever he tested something which wasn't active or active at only a threshold level.
I've got some of this on the way, but looking at the reports so far, it doesn't look to be active but I'm still holding out on seeing for myself. I've also been spacing my trips apart by several weeks so there shouldn't be much tolerance involved.
If it is a dud, then we simply get to experience a similar point in mind when Shulgin was testing his stuff, some of which turned out to be duds. We're just guinea pigs here, going through a more extensive testing trial phase than what Shulgin had collected in his notes. The original report in TIHKAL left it ambiguous as to whether or not it was truly active and that was from a single report.
The more reports come in, the more we know about it, it's all simple curiosity and even though some might consider it a 'wasted' endeavor, It's still worth it to satisfy our curiosity.
I've got some of this on the way, but looking at the reports so far, it doesn't look to be active but I'm still holding out on seeing for myself. I've also been spacing my trips apart by several weeks so there shouldn't be much tolerance involved.
If it is a dud, then we simply get to experience a similar point in mind when Shulgin was testing his stuff, some of which turned out to be duds. We're just guinea pigs here, going through a more extensive testing trial phase than what Shulgin had collected in his notes. The original report in TIHKAL left it ambiguous as to whether or not it was truly active and that was from a single report.
The more reports come in, the more we know about it, it's all simple curiosity and even though some might consider it a 'wasted' endeavor, It's still worth it to satisfy our curiosity.