Technical questions re antacids

[VelocideX]

Have been getting several queries as of late in ED about antacids & MDMA. I'm aware there's a variety of threads on antacids around bluelight, and I've done a search but none really answers some questions to my satisfaction:

Whilst anything that lowers blood pH could *in theory* reduce excretion, there's been much debate over whether antacids can have the same effect.

Some have proposed that they do in fact effect blood pH.

Other people have proposed that they may speed absorption. MDMA (or so I'm told) picks up a H+ ion on the way through the stomach and then loses it again in the intestines; some people have speculated that the reason people's pills do not come on for up to 3 or 4 hours sometimes may be due to hindered absorption in the colon... This is all conjecture of course.

Moreover, there was some discussion in this thread as to whether some antacids can in fact ruin the experience entirely by forming some compund with MDMA. Ca and Mg ions seem to be implicated; people having experiences with sodium bicarbonate seem unaffected.

Perhaps I should summarise
1) Can antacids penetrate far enough through the digestive system to have any significant impact on blood pH?
2) Could antacids (in theory) speed absorption of a pill?
3) Can calcium or magnesium ions form compounds with MDMA which make it incapable of being absorbed?

Any thoughts from the biochem minded people in here as to any of the above? Cheers.

 

[VelocideX]

I'm also interested in the differences of opinion between phase_dancer in this thread and those in the other one, and other threads ive seen about whether antacids will in fact form the freebase, and then whether the freebase is absorbed

 

[aesops]

Side question

Are Quickeze, Mylanta, Rennie etc etc the same as 'Eno'?

I use them all from time to time because I have a love of rich food and wine and other things... Are they all "antacids"?

 

[ozbreaker]

From my understanding of what i read in new scientist ages ago, what you eat does affect your body pH level - and people who have high acid diets were in a higher risk of having osteoperosis due to calcium being stripped. (article from 2 years ago)

At around the same time there was an article about how people that ingested a tablespoon of i *think* sodium bicarbonate (it's been a long time - maybe it was CaC03 as that makes more sense?) helped them run for longer due to less lactic acid build up due to their body pH being lowered.

I can't remember specifics as it was ages ago but i always wanted to read more about the lactic acid one.

Aesops: yep - i'm pretty sure they all count as antacids - full of calcium carbonatey and other goodness

 

[Pseudo G]

Yeah Sodium Bicarb to reduce the effects of lactic acid in muscle is an are old one. Cheap, nasty and legal way to increase performance at school athletics carnivals and it's illegal in horse racing.

 

[MoeBro]

Due to the fact that your blood pH needs to fall within a relatively narrow band, I would hope that antacids wouldnt affect your blood pH much.

From what I know (and read on their labels), theyre basically buffer solutions - so would reach a certain pH and not change much from there onwards.

Why not just try proton pump inhibitors?

in regards to the other two, i havent a clue - let p_d answer those

 

[BilZ0r]

I just thought i'd chime in and say a couple of things.

One is that there are a couple of studies in humans which show that an increase urinary pH DOES inhibit urinary exretion of amphetamine.

As far as antacids go this might be of interest...

Also, after a discussion with an MD and a clinical pharmacologist, I suspect that the effects of the cations (Al specifically) in antiacids might be causing their inhibitory effect in some people because of the slowing of gastric motility. Also, large doses of Mg in others might cause movement through the small intestine too quickly...

 

[ozbreaker]

Thanks for the info Pseudo G - i read it late one night and always meant ot go back and read it properly but never did and could never quite remember what substance it was.. might give it a go next time i face the treadmill to see how it goes.. i find that asprin helps heaps too by thinnign the blood and making lactic acid buildup harder but that's also banned as a performance enhancer!

sorry back on topic now.

 

[phase_dancer]

I just thought i'd chime in and say a couple of things.

Also, after a discussion with an MD and a clinical pharmacologist, I suspect that the effects of the cations (Al specifically) in antiacids might be causing their inhibitory effect in some people because of the slowing of gastric motility. Also, large doses of Mg in others might cause movement through the small intestine too quickly...

Exactly, and if a large amount of Mg(OH)2 is taken, pH can rise to ~9 (Goodman & Gilman's)

 

[VelocideX]

So what's your advice? Stick with sodium bicarb?

 

[phase_dancer]

Oxyaluminium products usually don't result in changes much over pH 3-4 so these are probably not worth using if faster absorption of MDMA is the intention.

Firstly, as the HCO3- ion is so soluble, it rapidly changes the pH in stomach. Any excess will soon enter the small intestine, so it's duration is much shorter than the others.

However, large or continuous doses of Bicarb are not advisable for several reasons. Volume expansion which occurs in large doses will increase blood pressure and hypertension (if pre-disposed). This can (has been known) to also promote edema.

There are other dangers (renal etc) with large doses of bicarbonate but Im sure I've posted that somewhere before.

If you have to, take a small amount 15 minutes before the E. Personally I don't know what all the fuss is about. If your E is in powder form and is pure, the come-on can be really fast. That's because MDMA is almost a perfect substance for rapid absorption in the duodenum. So perhaps isolating the pure product first is better chemistry (for the body)

Things such as magnesium trisilicate, calcium carbonate (chalky talcum) & Magnesium phosphate are also added to some preparations, but these also have limitations as to effectiveness, and are often included to slow things down and thereby extend the duration.

 

[VelocideX]

^^ that's all very well if you can get MDMA powder, but some of us don't have access to it =\

 

[phase_dancer]

^ as an alternative you could try crushing and dissolving, then filtering & drinking. I know it's not exactly always convenient, but if at home it shouldn't prove to much of a hassle.

And I'm not always able to get powder, not by a long shot. It's just that I do such things so infrequently, I have no problems waiting till something good comes to town. It was different once, and I hate to use the term jaded, but these days the desire just doesn't take hold much at all. I seem more aware of the hypertension than the euphoria, probably in part due to that pathogen called age. One to avoid at all costs

 

[VelocideX]

ahahaha fair enough. i've scoured sydney for powder and alas i've never been able to find

Guess I just don't know anyone high enough up the chain. For that matter, never been able to find research chems either