tackling the big issues.... bridging the rich-poor divide in australia..

[muzby]

as much as people (ie the media, the government) deny it is happening, the gap between the rich and the poor, the haves and the have nots is widening....

at first it was me, i was thinking it was just my perception, but, looking around it seems like it's going to be harder and harder for people who are middle / lower class (and by that i mean economically..) to get to be upper / high class, to be able to get themselves comfortable in life, without having to 'want' for anything..

its not just about having money.. but more about what that money can get you..

- private education fees have gone thru the roof
- private health care is ridiculous (even dental!)
- to live in a "safe" suburb costs way too much for the average family..

interest rate rises really wont do too much to curb inflation.. afterall, the top end of society generally doesnt have a mortgage.. so all a rate rise does is punish those who are trying to get ahead...

what kind of effect will this widening divide have on society in general? afterall, the typical "aussie" custom has been to help out others, but if we look around, that doesnt seem to be happening as much as it should... unfortunately more and more people are looking out for no.1, which pushes the divide wider..

how do YOU think this should be addressed?

what can WE do as a society to change things?

 

[zephyr]

As a society? Renounce capitalism and embrace communism.

As an individual: you first muzby.

 

[muzby]

done. you're first up against the wall.


serious answers?

 

[johnny13]

if your poor, you hate the rich

when the poor become rich, they hate the poor

the world cannot be equal, if we were all equal with honda civics there would be no market for ferraris hence the technology to build the ferrari would never occur and the world will never advance!
we would all be living in houses that look the same, eating the same food as everybody else and nobody would bother studying to become a doctor or lawyer as they would be paid the same as a toilet cleaner or fruit picker.

that is the explanation of communism is a cookey way!

 

[Mary Poppins]

topical thought-provoking thread as usual muzby...

I agree with you regarding interest rate-rises and their affect on low/high income earners.

I think policy both social and economic needs to be examined from more than just a "what will win me a vote in the next election" angle - with a view to a long-term correction of the problems you've outlined - and in some way (ideological I know) to almost future-proof this so that there will be minimal changes to the progression even if there is a change of government.

Stuff like tax cuts for people earning well over the average wage are 'nice' for those people but don't really represent that much value given they are quite easily able to pay their current tax bills, and could be better distributed to people earning below the average income - especially those with families.

Policies like the baby bonus irritate me because essentially they indirectly widen the margin because as hideous as it is, it is "quick cash" for some families and realistically - goes nowhere near to contributing significantly to the cost of raising a child/children in these inflationary times. This ends up putting them further behind the 8 ball, increasing their debt and placing more strain on social services.

Housing affordability in general needs to be examined as a priority - ffs, I earn and will earn far above the median salary and it looks like a fairly bleak possibility that I will be owning a house (well - a house where I would want to live...investment property is a different story). I can only imagine someone earning less and with more necessary expenses than me - especially given the phenomenal increases in rent.

One policy I think is great is the rebates etc for taking out private health cover. I can't really talk because I don't have it (I do keep meaning to get it though!!) but I don't think there is any excuse for people with my discretionary income to not have it/be clogging up the public system.

I could write more but will stop and have a think.

To conclude - realistically I don't think we have any other option BUT capitalism - however I think there are ways that we could turn this into sustainable capitalism rather than let it travel further down the road to implosion.

 

[zephyr]

done. you're first up against the wall.


serious answers?

Easy there big fella, you are assuming a lot in your post- for starters private schools are hardly worth the years scrimping and saving if they churn out rot like me (and they do!).

Its simple, stop spending your dollars on shit you don't need just to keep up with the Jone's or to impress your equally as small penis's ed friends.

Banks lend out far too much, there are more bankruptcy's now than ever before. Who really needs three plasma screen tv's in every bedroom anyway?


As a society? Stop putting so much importance on having the latest up to date gizmo thats going to be superseded within 2 months anyway. My friend who is into death metal has every single cd in that genre, particularly if it comes from Norway, but he has no savings for a deposit on his own place!

Thats whats going wrong.

Stop spending, start saving.

As for the "poor"? Make the most of what you got, or marry someone rich.

 

[ValeTudo]

Well said ^

Australia is one of the only countrys in the world where the poor can buy enough food to become obese, buy enough drugs to become addicts, own mobile phones with enough credit to text big brother, get credit cards, own cars & televisions. what the fuck? the "divide" between the rich and poor is that the rich have the sense to do real things with their money.

 

[Mary Poppins]

The poor are more likely to be able to afford food that will make them obese (ie. not fresh fruit and veg or meats but processed, mass produced shit), drug addicts usually sacrifice other life necessities for their vice of choice - and I doubt most of them start out 'poor' they become this way through their dependancy, credit cards are not money - that is part of the root of the divide (and impending recessions in the US) - credit companies set on making money on interest and defaulted repayments. The ensuing list of material possessions you listed are most likely a result of the aforementioned credit.

I think the word you're looking for in your last sentence is choice - the rich have the choice to do real things with their money.

However - I do think (I'm not sure if they do this already - I'm sure through Centrelink they would) the g/ment should offer free financial management courses.

 

[Samadhi]

^ I know, through some of the work that i do, that Centrelink does in fact offer financial management courses to long-term unemployed. Frankly, i think that this is something that should be taught in high school. It's fantastic if parents instill and teach some kind of financial management skills in their children - unfortunately not all parents have the ability to manage their finances, or the inclination to pass that on to their children.

I've come across an 18 year old guy who is hopeless with managing his finances, his dad pretty much manages his money for him - takes out money for bills, loan, car, he doesn't pay board and he lives at home and works full-time. The father thinks he's doing his son a favour, but he's not, he's not teaching him anything, he's just doing it for him. I can't begin to imagine how this kid is going to go trying to live his own life.

Conversely, my nephew is 15 years old, goes to school, has an after-school. I've never met a teenager with such a good attitude towards money - he saved for a second-hand laptop, has bought himself numerous musical instruments, has savings....

As for credit cards - companies like GE Finance bank on people who are shit at managing their finances getting loans with them - people who don't realise that a 12 month interest free loan doesn't mean that you don't have to start making payments for 12 months...

 

[ValeTudo]

Bullshit MP. You can spend $10 at maccas and eat for an afternoon, or $10 at safeway on vegetables and eat for a week. Taking drugs is a personal choice. Drinking alcohol is a personal choice. Applying for a credit card is a personal choice (agreed banks should reject them). There is no excuse for any Australian to be destitute. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt (especially by the immigrant community) that any Australian can start with literally nothing and live a happy, prosperous, if not rich life from scratch. Maybe it's a culture thing. I find it amusing (in a macabre way) that it's only the rich who cry about the so called divide, clearly out of guilt more than any genuine concern for wellbeing.

People should get jobs, or at the very least take a bit of initiative and commit crimes. It's absolutely ridiculously to suggest that there are no jobs. The fact is that poor folk would prefer to stay poor than do menial or shitty tasks, because as far as lifestyle goes, it's comfortable. That's why Australia's full of migrants who have the testicular fortitude to clean toilets, work heavy construction, cook food for rich folk, drive cabs, etc etc. what a bunch of dickheads mate the real issue here is the soft ass welfare state perpetuated by lazy motherfuckers robbed of their ambition by hydroponic cannabis and video games.

TAFE schools and training colleges all over Australia offer real skills & trainings to "destitute" Australians to get them into the workforce. Yet the classrooms are empty. Why? Centerlink offers financial management courses to dickheads who cant manage their bills, yet no1 attends until they're threatened with non-payment. Why?

 

[leecie]

You can spend $10 at maccas and eat for an afternoon, or $10 at safeway on vegetables and eat for a week

I really really really wish this were the case, but $10 doesn't get you very far in a supermarket these days. A few carrots and some tomatoes, maybe, but add in a loaf of bread and a pint of milk (do people still use that term?) and there's your ten blown. I live in Redfern so I get to see the 'have nots' trying to make their dollar stretch as best it can As outdated as it may sound, along with financial planning, kids (both boys and girls) need to be taught basic living essentials like cooking a simple healthy meal, ironing, kitchen hygiene etc. while they are still in early high school.

 

[ValeTudo]

Erm, it was an analogy, but ok. I live in Footscray, an area of African, Asian & Eastern European migrants, and they get by fine. Maybe the Refernians are just lazy? You're average single mum centerlink family w/ 2 kids is pulling min. ~$450 a week, not including rent assistance (that's about the figure according to my neighbours) . If you can't buy adequate food on that, you're just fucking stupid. That said, folks around here choose to work, so it probably doesn't effect them as much.

 

[m4dd0g]

leecie: The education system cops a lot of flak but ive always thought that kids 'learn' things at school but they'll 'become' what they see at home

Im not sure if you can solve the rich/poor problem.
+ Its easy for rich to become richer.
+ The rich get rich because they have something rare that everyone else wants.
+ If you even the playing field (socialist) most people with ability will leave.
+ If you even the playing field most people with ability may never develop it with no social recognition available.

I have no empirical evidence but I would have thought living on vegies is cheaper than maccas.

 

[leecie]

Absolutely agree with the education vs nature and nurture, BUT, if we want to make a change and wean the fat kids off maccas then it's got to go beyond one or two Home Ec classes and become a practical reality, particularly for those kids who do struggle with their home environments. It might be cheaper to live on vegies, but you have to know what to do with them.

 

[m4dd0g]

^ I was hoping you would say: 'well we should develop better social systems for recognition that arent based on capitalism'. Which i was totally going to agree with.

Teaching people how to cook (or learn, succeed, skills, etc) is easy but ineffective. Making them want to cook is hard and once again boils back to the parents or a very rare teacher that makes you aspire to be something more (imo the latter is actually less likely with private school mentality)

 

[stephaniesomewhere]

damn...I cook with veggies and I aint getting any richer!

Education, opportunities through the education make a difference......

"......You can spend $10 at maccas and eat for an afternoon, or $10 at safeway on vegetables and eat for a week. Taking drugs is a personal choice. Drinking alcohol is a personal choice. Applying for a credit card is a personal choice (agreed banks should reject them). There is no excuse for any Australian to be destitute. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt (especially by the immigrant community) that any Australian can start with literally nothing and live a happy, prosperous, if not rich life from scratch. "
vale tudo

I think the 10 bucks at safeway or alternatives is optimistic to be real, the alcohol, no and the drugs, no, and that is choice (please note me and vale agreeing on something apart from drinking is not badass!!!), but I think that there are many people who don't get to make these choices in our society due to their backgrounds, to tell those that can't afford to do so whilst their mates around them are doing so is a hard ask......and I don't think that it determines who ends up with or without, this is determined by more than casual consumption habits....maybe.

 

[Busty St Clare]

Apologies for my cut and paste of a previous post in the Election thread, but my opinion has not changed in the past Summer.....

Where is the Busty St Clare Party? A party for hard working, millionaires that have a social conscience, who do not believe that economic growth should take a front seat to environmental damage. I don't believe in socialism, it does not reward hard work. I don't believe in outright capitalism, continued growth will only benifit a few. Maybe cap personal wealth at say $10-20million. More than enough to live comfortably (and never work again if you wish). Any profits after this should be funnelled back to society. Not back to welfare as such, too many dole bludges for a start. But direct these funds to research to help the poor, the sick, the environment. Surely enough resources exist for everyone on the planet ( as long as we don't encourage people to breed like rabbits ( thats just being greedy Mr Pope ).

Ask any truely wealthy ($100mill +) and they will tell you there is not a lot of difference after $10mill. Their continued wealth is only being driven by shareholders. House, couple of cars, the ability to pay for the best medical care when their body starts to fail, a human doesn't need much more than this. Well perhaps a micro brew system on tap and a Kabana girl/boy to scoop the pool and when the sun goes down to rip a savage groove on the bongos while you sip on barcadi and juice, nodding your head as the pupils dilate.

I am just a simple man after all.............

VT is spot on when he says that in Australia we have a choice. Sitting making mud bricks while civil war erupts around your African society does not give you a choice. I believe the divide withn Australia is not the issue, the divide withn planet Earth is more of a concern. Good luck getting anyone to care about what happens away from their cosy borders though.......

 

[taita]

^Well said..I want to live with you Busty ! I will be your kabana boy

 

[doofqueen]

Free education and training courses are the key. The class divide is bigger than any other divide such as race, religion or gender and i'd sad to say i think it always will be. People are just greedy by nature (generally speaking) and if you are in a low ecconomic situation in your life free education and training can get you out of the shit.