Suicidal Thinking on Anti-Depressants?

[pinwheel]

Today, GlaxoSmithKline released publicly their information that their drug, Paxil can increase risks of suicidal behavior.

There have been frequent posts of late concerning suicide on this board, and one recent post happened to coincide with the poster's skipping of anti-depressant medication.

This post is to act as a warning and notification for those on anti-depressant medications. Please be aware that these drugs can encourage suicidal thinking and behavior, that these drugs are still relatively new and are not perfect.

And please, if you're on these meds, feel free to post about how they make you feel.

 

[Frump]

My mom just got taken off Paxil. They say that's what causes most of the suicides. It's hard to live with people like this.

 

[epic flame]

i don't take paxil. i take celexa a different anti-depressant, and i still feel suicidal at times. so is there really any point to anti-depressants?

 

[Bad_Boy_Blue]

This may not apply to Paxil, but I get seriously annoyed when people conclude that a certain drug has some adverse side-effect because of some lousy anecdotal evidence that they've heard of. You can't claim a drug makes you commit suicide if the number of people who become suicidal after taking the drug isn't statistically significant.

 

[Bad_Boy_Blue]

so is there really any point to anti-depressants?

With double-blind placaebo-controlled trials, they have proved that anti-depressants on the market do work on a percentage of people (if you look at a large enough population).

However, I do not think anti-depressants give results that are as good as they ought to be. Pharmaceutical companies don't want to produce one amazingly effective anti-depressant for various reasons.

There are other alternatives that have been shown to be just as effective (if not more) than the current SSRI's available.

Examples are GHB, St. John's Wort etc.

 

[Bad_Boy_Blue]

N.B. Although GHB hasn't actually been 'proved' to be an effective antidepressant,, this is one situation in which anecdotal evidence (and personal experience) is more than overwhelming.

[edit: please stay on topic]

 

[pinwheel]

Here is a link to an article on a U.K. agency's finding that "children and adolescents on active therapy were 1.2 to 3.2 times more likely to harm themselves or to consider suicide than were similar patients receiving placebo." The findings were from a study of more than 1,000 people. The findings also relate to paroxetine (Paxil in the U.S., and Seroxat in the U.K.)

http://www.pharmacist.com/articles/h_ts_0304.cfm

 

[epic flame]

really the goal for me is to come off of the anti-depressants. i don't want to be dependant on a drug in order to feel good. there are other methods besides anti-depressants. my counselor told me about the EEG thing. basically it's like an EKG. they put these patches with wires on your head and stuff, and they hook it up to a game, like pac-man. or i guess they have this other game called islands or something. but i guess you're supposed to make pac-man move just by thinking. i would love to try that instead of taking anti-depressants and feeling suicidal.

 

[*=Regulator=*]

i've been on paxil (aropax as it's known in Australia) for nearly 18 months and certainly haven't noticed an increase or even the existence of suicidal thoughts. I have contemplated suicide but more as a philisophical exploration than something with any intent. Still, this does concern me.

 

[ebeneezer_geeza]

Wasnt the same said about prozac too?

I think there are going to be suicides among a population of depressed people with or without ssri's, i mean its not as though a drug will necessarily change all your inner thoughts and problems. It will work for some and not for others.

 

[sparkle_jez]

Personally, I think there are highly superior 'alternative' therapies out there that are extremely effective. It's just very few people are willing to try them. Most of the time these methods are laughed or scorned at by most western doctors and patients.
But truth is i've seen homeopathic medicines work miracles on a few close friends of mine, along with lifestyle changes and learning skills such as meditation, yoga, reiki etc.... And on the other hand i've seen a lot of family members and friends get worse and in some cases develop addictions from all these 'wonderful' chemicals doctors don't think twice about perscribing.
I'm not saying all chemicals are bad or that they don't work for anybody, but i'm saying there are better ways out there if only our societies were more open minded.

 

[pinwheel]

sparkle_jez - -

Yes, I'd agree that alternative methods such as yoga, meditation can be helpful, but the reason for resistance I think lies in the knowledge that work can be involved.

ebeneezer_geeza - -

I'd agree that you find suicidal behavior with or without anti-depressants, but I think what we are looking at here, especially with teenagers, is a type of drug that profoundly alters mood. A couple of weeks ago, the New York Times ran a front page news article on how Prozac was more effective in young people than talk therapy. I feel the Times was somewhat reckless in printing this story A1, because the study it focused on kept records for over a year, where the results published were from the first 12 weeks! Still though, the results imply that anti-depressants are going to change mood, for better or worse, more quickly than therapy. With young people, whose moods are already changing drastically week to week, I think caution needs to be exercised.

BTW, the article also stated that a pill and psychotherapy together worked better than either alone.

 

[ebeneezer_geeza]

the combination is always going to come out on top - its like you need the drug to get your head above the waters of depression then the counselling or whatever to try and re-dress the persons problems. Though i cannot see how the two together will help endogenous depression caused by chemical imbalances as opposed to environment.

as for the suicides, i cannot see how anyone can statistically prove its down to the A/D unless there are so many in the first few weeks of using them. I would like to see the stats data if anyone knows where it might exist.

 

[banksy]

pharmocology assisinating. Toxic psychiatry by peter bergin covered all this stuff ten years ago. Thats the cover up point the finger at methadone as the evil drug while peroxitine kills bundles.

 

[mealltach]

From the article posted by pinwheel, the author stated that paroxetine:

“...should not be used in children and adolescents under the age of 18 years to treat depressive illness.”

I suppose it is safe to say (holy stating the obvious) that both the control/experimental groups were patients diagnosed with depression. Therefore, to point out a 1.2 to 3.2 percent increase (see pinwheels above posts) seems iffy, considering that suicidal thoughts are symptomatic of depression to begin with. What a slippery slope! Again, i know i'm stating the obvious here but i think it's worth noting. I agree with ebeneezer_geeza's last post.

In truth, i think this topic is perpetually complicated and frustrating (therefore very interesting ). In reference to pinwheel's last post concerning the combination of meds and therapy, i have heard the same but i am curious as to how exactly MOOD is measured in such clinical trials where this correlation (and any other conclusions surrounding studies in depression). Verbal descriptions by patients?

 

[sexyanon]

It's a tad bit common sense, but it's also been proven.

When someone is at rock bottom, feeling their worst, they want to die. However, they don't really have the energy to die. I've been there, and sometimes I was too "lazy" to turn off the TV. I simply did NOT have the energy to move my finger a few inches.

But, when one starts feeling better, they really don't feel all that great. They still feel terrible, but they have energy. This is the worst state, as now they have the energy to fulfill their suicidal thoughts.

That's a tad bit OT.

But, most AD's just tone down the emotions a bit so you can deal with your issues. You'll still feel down and depressed, if there are emotional issues, but you won't (theoretically) feel as bad, and therefore will be able to deal with the issues at hand mentally.

However, AD's don't cure anybody completely. They're given this false information that taking pills will cure most of their problems. Once they realize that most, if not ALL of their problems have not gone away, they can feel hopeless and gain suicidal thoughts.


I'm wondering, though, do any of these AD's START suicidal thoughts? Because it's completely normal to have them before and while you use AD's.

 

[pinwheel]

...i am curious as to how exactly MOOD is measured in such clinical trials where this correlation (and any other conclusions surrounding studies in depression)...

According to one GlaxoSmithKline paroxetine study, mood was measured using, primarily, the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAM-D). Success was gauged by people who showed a 50% reduction in HAM-D symptoms or received a rating of 8 or below.

 

[mealltach]

Thank you, pinwheel. A quick Google search, for those who share my curiosity, unearthed this.

That is quite comprehensive. I wonder if any medical professionals actually put the HAM-D system to use when making a diagnosis of depression? I wish my doctor had given me something of that nature, instead of saying, "Yeah, you've got clinical depression" as soon as i explained that i often feel like crap when i get out of bed in the morning.

 

[TheLostOne]

...

all i know is i was depressed but not always i still was comfortable with it. Untill a couple months ago my stomach doctor not even my real doctor asked if i was stressed or down. Probably because i usually was down when I went there. Anyway he gave me a perscription for some anti depressant that also does other stuff. Well I tell you i have been taking it and it made me feel good for a lil while but now i get more depressed than ever and hate it. I have alot of days now where i wish i wasn't alive and my life isn't that bad. I do more drugs than i did before now too.

Danm anti depressents so far with this and zoloft i took long ago. I think there bad news. atleast for some.

 

[Child_Inside]

This is kind of ridiculous... Drugs supposed to help people with depression now found to cause suicidal thoughts, eh? I know it cannot be proved, but the fact that the company itself releases the information probably means that there is more than just a few examples to conclude from.

I read another theory some time ago about antidepressives and suicidal thoughts: If you're VERY depressed, an antidepressive can give you that extra energy needed for thinking of and committing suicide, while still not making you so happy you want to live.

the combination is always going to come out on top - its like you need the drug to get your head above the waters of depression then the counselling or whatever to try and re-dress the persons problems. Though i cannot see how the two together will help endogenous depression caused by chemical imbalances as opposed to environment.

I don't believe in the existence of chemical imbalances in the body that are not mirrored by personal problems. It's different aspects of the same thing.