Bupe Suboxone strangeness

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I have some questions about how suboxone works because I find this substance to be incredibly strange. I've used subs and kratom (together sometimes) and have never experienced PWD or any side effect. That's definitely not to say that anyone should attempt such a thing. There's no reason to disregard waiting 24 hours or so after using kratom unless you surefire know it won't induce PWD within you personally. With opioids like oxycodone or morphine I've never disregarded the waiting time and I don't want to find out if that would cast me into what junkies consider to be the worst thing ever. Because you'd think addiction is the worst part but I guess not..

So my questions are (and anyone can comment just answering one or what they think definitely not all of them):

-Why do people say that 1-2 milligrams is more euphoric than 8 milligrams? 4 milligrams in a dose is where my body is currently at. P.S. if you have barely any tolerance for opiates do not take more than 1 milligram of suboxone at a time. You will get whooped and drooling like a dog. Not the good mouth-watering junkie high it's actually the bad kind of high.

-How does suboxone work so well for ending terrible opiate withdrawals? For instance... during a brutal fent withdrawal that made me want to die (it was so bad fent is not worth it don't do it to yourself) I was saved by subs, and after 5 days of sub use the fent withdrawal was totally gone! Even the depression! The reason I found out that there is no PWD within me through subs/kratom is because I was in the storm of a fent sickness and kratom didn't put a dent in it... then someone swooped in with a sub and I took it immediately after eating kratom to end the misery and I didn't care about any consequences at the time.

-Even on larger doses of suboxone I never seem to have withdrawals from suboxone itself. I've never used subs for over two weeks however. But 8 milligrams daily per say wasn't abnormal. At one point in the past I remember being on 20 milligrams total in a day for about a week. Not recommended if you will withdraw badly from that.

I'm thinking that some of these observations are unique to me but that's what I'm curious about. I think that suboxone is a junkie's life-saver temporary or not. It really really helped me get through some otherwise seemingly impossible moments. I literally could not stand the fent sickness and I refuse to put myself through such a god awful ordeal ever again--It made oxy withdrawal look like a joke and I never thought that was possible. Without suboxone I might have done something incredibly desperate and have hurt myself in the process. Ty One final note is that I am very proud of the world and the USA for allowing suboxone treatment and that they should continue to administer it and maybe even more so. It really helps addicts not only live their lives undisturbed by relapsing/withdrawals but in general it's just morally a great way to help people who are really suffering. There is absolutely no reason for the USA to suddenly crack down on eliminating suboxone. We need it.

 

[chelle216]

Ok, I’ll bite.

First, it’s important to understand how bupe works, so a little background. Bupe is a partial opioid agonist with a high binding affinity at the mu-receptor, this receptor being largely responsible for the analgesia, euphoric feelings, and respiratory effects produced by opioids. Unlike full agonists (morphine, oxy, etc.) which fully occupy the mu-receptor, bupe only occupies this receptor partially, yet it binds much more tightly. This directly explains why precipitated withdrawal can occur when taking bupe too soon after using, as it “knocks off” whatever is left on the receptor in order to bind. It also explains why it’s next to impossible to get high with full agonists until the bupe wears off.

At low doses, partial agonists function a bit closer to full agonists. With bupe, a major active metabolite (norbuprenophine) is a full agonist at the mu-receptor. Norbupe really only comes into play at lower doses. This is why low dose (usually under 1mg) bupe is utilized in pain management.

That high binding affinity mentioned above coupled with a long half life is exactly why bupe works so well to mitigate withdrawal.

Now, a word of caution. Taking bupe for extended periods in any dose or for a few weeks at very high doses will absolutely result in withdrawal. Personally, I spent a few weeks taking a high dose (when it first came out and drs didn’t know any better) and the withdrawal was brutal enough to send me back into active addiction. I later spent years taking subs at a low dose and still found it more difficult to quit than methadone. Is it a lifesaving medication? Sure, but it’s not without it’s pitfalls. YMMV.

* For a much more detailed description regarding partial agonists and binding affinity see here.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I can answer one question: it works so well for ending opiate withdrawals because it is an opiate. Or, opioid if we're splitting hairs. Not trying to be pedantic, but it's no different from any other opioid, other than that little piece of paper which says it's legal. It's just a way for pharmaceutical companies to make money. But hey, safer than getting a batch of supposed heroin that's actually carfentanil and isotonitazene or whatever. Lots of corpses out there.

I know what you're saying.. but is there merit to using suboxone (until the initial opiate/opioid is fully out of the body system) that makes the overall withdrawal much more benign after your last dose of suboxone? I know it's common for some doctors to do a 2-3 day suboxone maintenance type thing. Only 2-3 days until the initial opiate has fully exited the body.

 

[D33jay1225]

I have a question. So I have a bunch of suboxone strips for rainy day needs and I thought I wasn't going to be able to get some black today so I did about 3 strips today to get well and not too long after I already took the strips my buddy came through and gave me a gram of some H, so how long do I wait to do the black? Is it bad to mix? Will I just be wasting it? Should I wait a few days before I do the heroin?

 

[tarman]

I know what you're saying.. but is there merit to using suboxone (until the initial opiate/opioid is fully out of the body system) that makes the overall withdrawal much more benign after your last dose of suboxone? I know it's common for some doctors to do a 2-3 day suboxone maintenance type thing. Only 2-3 days until the initial opiate has fully exited the body.

Its long half life is the key. But I ask you this- if you take it for 2 or 3 days then stop, what are you left with? It's gonna be pretty unpleasant, right? That's really all my original point was- it's just another opiate. Its long half life and its partial mu agonism are beneficial, but it's still "good enough" to simply replace a heroin/fent/etc habit. But if people can handle a 3 week taper, you've got a fighting chance. One way or another, it's gonna be unpleasant. I'm of the opinion you're just prolonging the inevitable if you take it for 2 or 3 days then try to jump. But maybe I misunderstood you. And I'm certainly no expert. The only time I've taken suboxone was when I had zero tolerance and had no idea what it was. I hated my friend for a long time after he did that to me. He and his junkie hooker girlfriend were giggling when I ate the strip. I trusted them. I get it, I'm an idiot for not knowing what I took. But, they lied to me and said it would give me a buzz. I puked about 10 times for 12 hours. No euphoria. I was actually scared I was going to die of dehydration because I couldn't keep any liquid down... at all. I'm on a tangent. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. An opiate is an opiate, that's all I gotta say. But it seems to be well accepted that the long half-life opioids are the worst to cold turkey. S'all I'm sayin.

 

[OrbitalCombustion]

I have a question. So I have a bunch of suboxone strips for rainy day needs and I thought I wasn't going to be able to get some black today so I did about 3 strips today to get well and not too long after I already took the strips my buddy came through and gave me a gram of some H, so how long do I wait to do the black? Is it bad to mix? Will I just be wasting it? Should I wait a few days before I do the heroin?

Did you take 3 8mg strips? If you want to enjoy the dope I would give it 48 hours.

 

[D33jay1225]

Yup sure did, and yeah I'm gonna give it a few days for sure haha

 

[MyrandaK]

I have some questions about how suboxone works because I find this substance to be incredibly strange. I've used subs and kratom (together sometimes) and have never experienced PWD or any side effect. That's definitely not to say that anyone should attempt such a thing. There's no reason to disregard waiting 24 hours or so after using kratom unless you surefire know it won't induce PWD within you personally. With opioids like oxycodone or morphine I've never disregarded the waiting time and I don't want to find out if that would cast me into what junkies consider to be the worst thing ever. Because you'd think addiction is the worst part but I guess not..

So my questions are (and anyone can comment just answering one or what they think definitely not all of them):

-Why do people say that 1-2 milligrams is more euphoric than 8 milligrams? 4 milligrams in a dose is where my body is currently at. P.S. if you have barely any tolerance for opiates do not take more than 1 milligram of suboxone at a time. You will get whooped and drooling like a dog. Not the good mouth-watering junkie high it's actually the bad kind of high.

-How does suboxone work so well for ending terrible opiate withdrawals? For instance... during a brutal fent withdrawal that made me want to die (it was so bad fent is not worth it don't do it to yourself) I was saved by subs, and after 5 days of sub use the fent withdrawal was totally gone! Even the depression! The reason I found out that there is no PWD within me through subs/kratom is because I was in the storm of a fent sickness and kratom didn't put a dent in it... then someone swooped in with a sub and I took it immediately after eating kratom to end the misery and I didn't care about any consequences at the time.

-Even on larger doses of suboxone I never seem to have withdrawals from suboxone itself. I've never used subs for over two weeks however. But 8 milligrams daily per say wasn't abnormal. At one point in the past I remember being on 20 milligrams total in a day for about a week. Not recommended if you will withdraw badly from that.

I'm thinking that some of these observations are unique to me but that's what I'm curious about. I think that suboxone is a junkie's life-saver temporary or not. It really really helped me get through some otherwise seemingly impossible moments. I literally could not stand the fent sickness and I refuse to put myself through such a god awful ordeal ever again--It made oxy withdrawal look like a joke and I never thought that was possible. Without suboxone I might have done something incredibly desperate and have hurt myself in the process. Ty One final note is that I am very proud of the world and the USA for allowing suboxone treatment and that they should continue to administer it and maybe even more so. It really helps addicts not only live their lives undisturbed by relapsing/withdrawals but in general it's just morally a great way to help people who are really suffering. There is absolutely no reason for the USA to suddenly crack down on eliminating suboxone. We need it.

Suboxone is 2 different drugs. Agonist at low doses and antagonist at high doses. But you still have to have absolutely no tolerance at all to get any pain relief from any dose but going higher won’t do you any good, only make it harder to get off of.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Has the whole norbupe thing at low doses really been proven at all yet? I mean I know it metabolizes to that, but I've seen no proof that norbupe makes it to the brain. Although I do agree that lower doses seem to feel closer to an agonist and higher doses are actually quite dysphoric.

I've been on bupe for 5 years now. At first it was great, even gave me an all day glow & extreme mood lift. Now a days, I get absolutely nothing from it really.
Is there any way to get the euphoria back? I mean without having to go several days in a row without it? Or am I doomed to have to do this? Even after 1 day of not taking a dose, I can tell and feel that I haven't taken any. It's not withdrawal really, it's just a subjective "blah" feeling I can't describe.

Now I don't need anyone's moral judgements or the whole "sUbs ArEnT mEaNt FoR gEtTiNg HiGh" BS. It is my opinion that in order for maintenance meds to eliminate cravings (which is part of what their purpose is), they need to illicit some sort of "effect" to satisfy my mind. Without feeling my meds, how am I going to get craving relief?

Any tips or tricks people know of? I'm becoming pretty depressed for the first time since getting on it. The daily grind is so boring and mind numbing.

 

[bingey]

^
maybe NMDA antagonists they are great for resetting opiate tolerance

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

^
maybe NMDA antagonists they are great for resetting opiate tolerance

Thanks for the reply. I have definitely used DXM a few times to try and get the magic back. It's helped a few times, but some times I forget about it because I've developed a gag-reflex to anything with dxm in it. lol I will have to try and give it another try again.

 

[Quere]

Its long half life is the key. But I ask you this- if you take it for 2 or 3 days then stop, what are you left with? It's gonna be pretty unpleasant, right? That's really all my original point was- it's just another opiate. Its long half life and its partial mu agonism are beneficial, but it's still "good enough" to simply replace a heroin/fent/etc habit. But if people can handle a 3 week taper, you've got a fighting chance. One way or another, it's gonna be unpleasant. I'm of the opinion you're just prolonging the inevitable if you take it for 2 or 3 days then try to jump. But maybe I misunderstood you. And I'm certainly no expert. The only time I've taken suboxone was when I had zero tolerance and had no idea what it was. I hated my friend for a long time after he did that to me. He and his junkie hooker girlfriend were giggling when I ate the strip. I trusted them. I get it, I'm an idiot for not knowing what I took. But, they lied to me and said it would give me a buzz. I puked about 10 times for 12 hours. No euphoria. I was actually scared I was going to die of dehydration because I couldn't keep any liquid down... at all. I'm on a tangent. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. An opiate is an opiate, that's all I gotta say. But it seems to be well accepted that the long half-life opioids are the worst to cold turkey. S'all I'm sayin.

Was it an 8mg strip? That’s pretty insane for someone opioid naive. I gave a casual opioid user .5 once and he was throwing up all day lol. He got a nice buzz tho haha

 

[Quere]

Has the whole norbupe thing at low doses really been proven at all yet? I mean I know it metabolizes to that, but I've seen no proof that norbupe makes it to the brain. Although I do agree that lower doses seem to feel closer to an agonist and higher doses are actually quite dysphoric.

I've been on bupe for 5 years now. At first it was great, even gave me an all day glow & extreme mood lift. Now a days, I get absolutely nothing from it really.
Is there any way to get the euphoria back? I mean without having to go several days in a row without it? Or am I doomed to have to do this? Even after 1 day of not taking a dose, I can tell and feel that I haven't taken any. It's not withdrawal really, it's just a subjective "blah" feeling I can't describe.

Now I don't need anyone's moral judgements or the whole "sUbs ArEnT mEaNt FoR gEtTiNg HiGh" BS. It is my opinion that in order for maintenance meds to eliminate cravings (which is part of what their purpose is), they need to illicit some sort of "effect" to satisfy my mind. Without feeling my meds, how am I going to get craving relief?

Any tips or tricks people know of? I'm becoming pretty depressed for the first time since getting on it. The daily grind is so boring and mind numbing.

Yeah I had same thing. Solved by going on methadone, handles that ‘need’ much better. Sub kept me on track for a few years but then started craving iv morphine/homebake/oxy full agonist type feeling

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

Buprenorphine is a weird one. Ive seen it make people hear voices and hallucinate and other people have gone violent from it.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Yeah I had same thing. Solved by going on methadone, handles that ‘need’ much better. Sub kept me on track for a few years but then started craving iv morphine/homebake/oxy full agonist type feeling

I've been considering it. Although the nearest Methadone clinic is a good ways away and I don't think going there to dose every day is a viable option for me unfortunately. If I were able to get a 30 day supply of it as easily as Suboxone, I would.

I'm incredibly frustrated with bupe now though. It was great in the beginning and for a short bit there I actually preferred it to heroin (was cheaper, the high lasted longer). Now that has definitely reversed and I'd give my left nut for a fat bump of dope any day.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Can confirm what Quere said. Have seen people puking, nodding, talkative and energetic from mere micrograms of bupe. Was highly jealous every time. lol

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Here's some suboxone strangeness...

One day I can take 16mg and feel nothing. Then the next day take .5mg and be high as a kite. Even after 5 years of daily use.
And then there are some days where I can take .5-1mg and just feel.. normal but then take about 4 more mg and suddenly feel high again.

Some times the high I get is uppity. Lots of energy. Socializing feels great. My body feels warmth almost close to a full agonist. I feel in love with the world.
And then other times I'll receive a "high" if you wanna call it that, that resembles a heroin nod, extremely sedated & need to close my eyes or lay down, but there is absolutely ZERO euphoria during this "nod" and it can actually be quite uncomfortable at times and annoying (especially when trying to do something that requires attention and then it comes out of nowhere). I can't seem to figure out which dosage is best for the "uppity", warm, social slightly euphoric buzz and which one causes me to just zonk out like that.

It does seem the lower doses (.5-1mg) are where I get the non-euphoric, heavily sedated type feeling and end up needing a nap after it kicks in. (could this be the norbupe at play) where as 2mg-4mg seem to be where the fun, euphoric warm tingly buzz is, and anything over that just makes me feel.. blank. Some times if I dose as high as 24mg I will feel completely dysphoric and like I am in withdrawals.

And then of course I have days where it does absolutely nothing (which is most days) at any dose whatsoever.

It's inconsistency is one hell of a strange bupe/sub attribute. Can't think of another drug that works like this. Heroin use to give me that 'natural energy' and social feeling some times too, but I could also nod at the same time, but it was still a consistent euphoric experience. Where as with bupe, I never know how I will feel on any given day with it.
Anyone else ever notice this?

 

[Zextravagentz]

Thanks for the reply. I have definitely used DXM a few times to try and get the magic back. It's helped a few times, but some times I forget about it because I've developed a gag-reflex to anything with dxm in it. lol I will have to try and give it another try again.

robo gels infuce nausea for you? as early as like 12 I was taking about 500-750 mg of them... the delays syrup I remember was grape flavored I would drink a bottle or two and would trip tf out highly dissociated like eyes open awake but gone.
Some of the local kids around my age were fucking with me trying to talk to me and I wasn't really responding just kinda looking at them. I remember them making me slightly nervous because they were screaming that I was so high and this and that in this small town where the police are real bored. would get shit water and diarrhea like crazy too before I discovered the gels

 

[Jabberwocky]

Ok, I’ll bite.

First, it’s important to understand how bupe works, so a little background. Bupe is a partial opioid agonist with a high binding affinity at the mu-receptor, this receptor being largely responsible for the analgesia, euphoric feelings, and respiratory effects produced by opioids. Unlike full agonists (morphine, oxy, etc.) which fully occupy the mu-receptor, bupe only occupies this receptor partially, yet it binds much more tightly. This directly explains why precipitated withdrawal can occur when taking bupe too soon after using, as it “knocks off” whatever is left on the receptor in order to bind. It also explains why it’s next to impossible to get high with full agonists until the bupe wears off.

At low doses, partial agonists function a bit closer to full agonists. With bupe, a major active metabolite (norbuprenophine) is a full agonist at the mu-receptor. Norbupe really only comes into play at lower doses. This is why low dose (usually under 1mg) bupe is utilized in pain management.

That high binding affinity mentioned above coupled with a long half life is exactly why bupe works so well to mitigate withdrawal.

Now, a word of caution. Taking bupe for extended periods in any dose or for a few weeks at very high doses will absolutely result in withdrawal. Personally, I spent a few weeks taking a high dose (when it first came out and drs didn’t know any better) and the withdrawal was brutal enough to send me back into active addiction. I later spent years taking subs at a low dose and still found it more difficult to quit than methadone. Is it a lifesaving medication? Sure, but it’s not without it’s pitfalls. YMMV.

* For a much more detailed description regarding partial agonists and binding affinity see here.

Great amount of information. Thanks for the post, even I - with 2 years of bupe addiction behind me - didn't know this shit so detailed.

 

[Temmujin]

Suboxone is fantastic for detox. Don't bother starting if you're not 100% committed. You can't really abuse suboxone because of the ceiling. I'm down to 2mg every 2nd/3rd day. You should take as little as possible that makes you feel ok. My doctor started me at 24mg a day, I dropped it to 8mg in a few days.

She said as long as you're not feeling withdrawal symptoms(comfortable), your MU receptors are healing. So you can manage your dose on your own. I want to get off suboxone asap because I'm going through hell detoxing off IV morphine/dilaudid, I don't want this shit lasting years longer from suboxone, which is very addictive itself.

Ps: don't drive with suboxone on you, and never tell a cop you take it. Even though you're not impaired, they think its the same as you high on heroin and charge DUI.