Tryptamines Shout out to the AcO boys!

[Xorkoth]

Doesnt strike me as a prodrug of psilocin particularly at high doses - its much more like orsl dmt with its own distinct feel and twist.

They're absolutely not the same, 4-AcO-DMT is like oral smoked DMT, it has a very DMT signature, it's unmistakable. I am certainly aware of the placebo effect, but I am completely confident I could easily tell them apart in a blind test. The first half feels like slowly developing smoked DMT, and the second half is basically just like mushrooms.

 

[cosmic charlie]

Yeah I could 100% tell it apart from Mushrooms as well, I love them both but I prefer the 4-AcO-DMT its one of my favorite drugs. Taking it orally is what I would imagine oral DMT to feel like I should find out for myself first hand as I plan on doing Pharmahuasca trials at some point this year im just in a tolerance break right now. But yeah the visuals orally a different then those of a Mushroom trip tho it's hard to describe such things honestly because they obviously have many similarities. The comeup like your saying is much different tho and just had a very DMTish vibe to it. And know that I have much more experience with smoking DMT these past years I will standby that statement even moreso.

 

[HOOH]

The visuals are very different and basicly like dmt.
The duration is basicly exactly like mushrooms though.

Again, could this merely be due to a placebo thing? Many report mushrooms having organic visuals, while DMT having futuristic/esoteric visuals, but so does LSD and many other synthetic drugs as well.
Maybe the mushroom being a mushroom gives an impression of organicity in the visuals, as opposed to the drug itself.

And of course, as I said, 4-AcO has low affinities for any receptor.

 

[Ismene2]

One other thing ive noticed - if you take moclobemide with mushrooms that makes it a lot more like oral dmt than mushrooms.

4AcO just seems to go straight to a dmt experience. There is one difference in that oral dmt doesnt last as long as 4aco...but heres a few observations:

Oral dmt - same intense physical euphoria as 4 aco but more hit and miss nausea wise. Mushrooms dont quite have the same feeling of "lets get the fuck up and dance" as 4aco. With oral dmt you have a 70% chance of being immobilised with nausea - no nausea with 4aco.

Oral dmt and 4aco - same intense welcoming feeling, like this is home, this is where you were always meant to be.

Oral dmt and 4aco - profound effect on seeing nature, mushrooms at high doses (10 dried grams and up) are also phenomenol but i think 4aco just edges it.

Oral dmt and 4aco have a lot longer tolerance than mushrooms - you can take shrooms every week. Taking oral dmt or 4 aco need a 2-4 week break or you notice a big dropoff in effects.

But 4aco isnt just straight oral dmt its got its own feel to it as well. I do mean high doses tho. Im not pissing about - 100-250mg of 4 aco hits the spot for me.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Again, could this merely be due to a placebo thing? Many report mushrooms having organic visuals, while DMT having futuristic/esoteric visuals, but so does LSD and many other synthetic drugs as well.
Maybe the mushroom being a mushroom gives an impression of organicity in the visuals, as opposed to the drug itself.

And of course, as I said, 4-AcO has low affinities for any receptor.

I dont buy that explanation, placebo is a real thing.
However alot of people use it as a cop out when they are Clueless.

Psilo mushrooms have many substances outside of psilocin/psilocybin.

Thats why different strains have quite different effects.

 

[Ismene2]

What are the things that affect how\what a 4sub tryptamine breaks down into? Anyone any ideas?

 

[Xorkoth]

Again, could this merely be due to a placebo thing? Many report mushrooms having organic visuals, while DMT having futuristic/esoteric visuals, but so does LSD and many other synthetic drugs as well.
Maybe the mushroom being a mushroom gives an impression of organicity in the visuals, as opposed to the drug itself.

And of course, as I said, 4-AcO has low affinities for any receptor.

I don't believe so, no. I'm well aware of the placebo effect, but acetoxy groups are not like phosphoryloxy groups, they will be cleaved into hydroxy eventually, but are able to pass the blood brain barrier as well. When you have taken things many times and always notice the same differences, placebo starts to push the boundaries of acceptable explanations. Especially when you fully expected it to be the same as mushrooms the first time, and it was definitely not.

There have ben no controlled studies to my knowledge on binding affinities for 4-AcO-DMT, if you know of any, please point me to them.

The prevailing opinion at one point was that any differences between ANY of the 4-sub tryptamines, or even any of the 2C-Xs (between each other), besides duration, were the result of the placebo effect, but I think at this point that idea has been thoroughly debunked. In fact early studies done on psychedelic-naive participants suggested that mescaline, LSD and psilocybin were indistinguishable from each other. But I doubt anyone here would say that is the case.

 

[Beenhead]

I have no experience with 4-ACO-DMT but I don't believe it being anything but a psilocin prodrug.

It has very little affinity for any receptor at all, and in general, most acetyl-esters are prodrugs (e. heroin).
Personally, I believe it's just a placebo, a difference due to one being a powder, the other being raw organic matter.

I have done both and I found 4-AcO-DMT visual to be much more DMT like than Psilocin like. Way more synesthesia, patterns and colors within them were more varied and interactive to me.
The thing you got to remember about affinity data is that it is in vitro. These are usually cultured proteins in solution. When you are missing the rest of the proteome, other small molecules, and the basic environ of the cell, who knows what differences are.
My background is in protein kinase activity on microtubule and tau protein but, we would find activity and non activity from kinases that other labs would not.

this is one of my big research areas in psychedelic chemistry so I had to throw this out there.

 

[HOOH]

There have ben no controlled studies to my knowledge on binding affinities for 4-AcO-DMT, if you know of any, please point me to them.

SwissTargetPrediction shows low serotonergic activity for 4-AcO, furthermore, there are no other ester-containing psychedelics, and binding between esters and 5-HT receptors has not been demonstrated.
Furthermore, many other ester drugs are also merely prodrugs, even if the effects have some difference, such as heroin or lisdexamfetamine.

 

[Xorkoth]

Fair points. But I can't discount my and many other very experienced psychonauts' experiences of consistent and substantial differences. I think it's a bit arrogant to believe that we have a full understanding of what is going on in the brain and receptor binding (I truly mean no offense and am not calling you arrogant, it's just a common thing I notice). IMO there is still a lot of mystery. Also see Beenhead's post directly above. He's a man with a whole lot of education on the matter.

I admit that you may be right and I may be wrong, but I do believe that I am correct. Swiss target prediction is not a silver bullet.

Ultimately differences could even come down to differences in time to plasma peak, or something like that.

 

[Andrena commoda]

SwissTargetPrediction is 100% worthless. And binding between esters and 5-HT receptors has in fact been demonstrated. Look at the chart on page 28 of this paper: https://bitnest.netfirms.com/external/10.1016/j.neuropharm.2018.02.028

The binding affinities for 4-AcO-DALT are pretty similar to that of DALT and 4-HO-DALT. In fact, they are much more similar to DALT than to 4-HO-DALT at some receptors. If this kind of pattern carries over to DMT and its 4 position substitutions then that could explain why people often find 4-AcO-DMT to be more DMT-like than mushrooms.

Like several other people in this thread, I too find that some aspects of 4-AcO-DMT, particularly the visuals, are quite similar to DMT. This observation was not influence by other peoples reports. When I first tried it I hadn't read much about it and thought it was supposed to be just like mushrooms.

 

[JackARoe]

Another interesting topic. In the same way we found out that heroin converts to morphine we need a few researchers to follow 4-AcO coursing through the bloodstream and see how and where it ends up. But unlike morphine or heroin this is not a priority except for maybe a curious researcher. I would love to know. Until then it is all speculation however people commenting on the experience of different effects can add to the knowledge.

I will say this, I do see people say 4-AcO-DMT is more like DMT than mushrooms. But I am one that think small doses of DMT do feel like mushrooms so it is hard for me to compare. Large doses of mushrooms for sure get DMT like. I have had very similar experiences on say 15 mgs of DMT feeling a lot like a quick 3 gram mushroom trip.

Someday though someone will log onto BL and get their answer. So in a way it is healthy to kick ideas back and forth, I mean in 20 years a lot of questions have been answered. And I do hope BL exists in 20 years.