Shoplifting
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onetwothreefour
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Originally posted by keystroke
drug taking [pills, amphet] should never become legal unless there are regulations put in place and a standards and only then it shouldn't just be handed out willy nilly. I think legality of these drugs would cause more problems than the country can learn to deal with. look at all the idiots overdosing on alcohol every night, imagine ecstasy overdoses everyday? I'd dare say it'd be a huge medical bill for the country.
Shoplifting is still wrong though, how would you like it if someone broke into your house and stole a stash of money you had hidden away for a rainy day or stole your CD player or Playstation or something.... it doesn't feel nice haven't shit stolen, regardless of whether it's a huge corporation or not, you're ultimately stealing someones money and that is why it can't be ever looked upon as being good.
drug taking [pills, amphet] should never become legal unless there are regulations put in place and a standards and only then it shouldn't just be handed out willy nilly. I think legality of these drugs would cause more problems than the country can learn to deal with. look at all the idiots overdosing on alcohol every night, imagine ecstasy overdoses everyday? I'd dare say it'd be a huge medical bill for the country.
Shoplifting is still wrong though, how would you like it if someone broke into your house and stole a stash of money you had hidden away for a rainy day or stole your CD player or Playstation or something.... it doesn't feel nice haven't shit stolen, regardless of whether it's a huge corporation or not, you're ultimately stealing someones money and that is why it can't be ever looked upon as being good.
and i wouldn't disagree, mostly. i didn't say they should be unrestricted, i just said they shouldn't be illegal.
ain't nothin' wrong with "idiots overdosing on alcohol every night", either: why is that anyone's choice but the individual's themself.
note: grammar bad; drunk
and wait: fuck off (
), as lostpunk et al have already pointed out NUMEROUS times, it isn't relevant to draw a parallel between someone breaking into my house and stealing my shit and someone stealing from a big, faceless, leeching corporation.
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keystroke
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onetwothreefour said:
i hardly see the difference between stealing from your grandmother and stealing from KMart.
it's still something that shouldn't happen, just because someone is successful in business that makes it OK to steal from them?
onetwothreefour
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no, what lostpunk detailed is what -i personally- think makes it okay to steal from corporations. my point was that it's NEVER okay to steal from individuals (or "mom and pop" stores), because an actual person is harmed directly.
i will be back to this thread tomorrow, as it's all getting a bit tough right now.
i will be back to this thread tomorrow, as it's all getting a bit tough right now.
lostpunk5545
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keystroke said:
It's not the fact that it is a successful business that makes it ok to steal from them, it is their business ethics that make it ok to steal from them. It's impossible to get to the top withough trampling others underfoot on the way up.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face... FOREVER!" - George Orwell
"When Fred and Barney Rubble indoctrinate me in my own home and try to tell me that Mr Slate's got it tough on his corporate throne. "yeah Mr Slate, boys has bigger problems than we've ever known, and a man like that deserves respect and your respect alone." - Propagandhi
onetwothreefour
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^^^ lp: a clarification that needs to be made, perhaps (well, from my point-of-view - obviously you may or may not agree).
i think stealing, "morally" is wrong. morals are reliant, imo, on the notion of the means justifying the end. sometimes the ends can be used to justify the means (and most people doing so would argue that it is still a "moral" equation, but it's a fuckload more complicated), though, and in these cases i personally can over-ride my general belief that stealing is wrong.
stealing is wrong, because it is unfair to take what is not yours. but, in the ends-justifying-means case, where you are unable to survive at a fair or sustainable level *without* taking what's not yours, i (and as far as i can tell, a good ninety-nine percent of people) believe that it's okay to steal. two instances: a) a person is dying and they need a specific medicine that is only attainable by breaking into a near-by chemist and stealing it (obviously that's fair - most people would think so, anyway); or a starving family who steals a loaf of bread from a supermarket because otherwise they'll die.
both circumstances are easily justifiable.
so what makes it really so wrong to take from "people" (companies) who continuously make their profits based on the suffering, low wages, subjugation and exploitation of people that are ostensibly spending the best part of their lives working hard FOR THAT COMPANY'S PROFIT.
i do not entirely endorse communism (short, and hugely simplified run-down: communism = a system wherein everybody gets rewarded for the actual *labour* that they put into the system; capitalism = everybody gets rewarded for the intelligence, thought, and infrastructure that they put in, entirely regardless of the effort), because i think it is necessary to award good ideas, good thinkers, and people who can come up with (necessary, imo) infrastructure. but i absolutely abhor the fact that our current form of capitalism rewards and rewards and rewards and rewards these people, entirely at the detriment of the people putting in the (just-as-necessary labour). i don't want every single person to have the same fucking wage; what i want is more of a balance so that at least we can all be comfortable.
jesus, that turned into quite a rant (and i think i lost the topic somewhere in the second paragraph), so i might have to get back to this in the morning. but feel free to respond with any criticisms or agreeances (that is not a word but i don't care).
i think stealing, "morally" is wrong. morals are reliant, imo, on the notion of the means justifying the end. sometimes the ends can be used to justify the means (and most people doing so would argue that it is still a "moral" equation, but it's a fuckload more complicated), though, and in these cases i personally can over-ride my general belief that stealing is wrong.
stealing is wrong, because it is unfair to take what is not yours. but, in the ends-justifying-means case, where you are unable to survive at a fair or sustainable level *without* taking what's not yours, i (and as far as i can tell, a good ninety-nine percent of people) believe that it's okay to steal. two instances: a) a person is dying and they need a specific medicine that is only attainable by breaking into a near-by chemist and stealing it (obviously that's fair - most people would think so, anyway); or a starving family who steals a loaf of bread from a supermarket because otherwise they'll die.
both circumstances are easily justifiable.
so what makes it really so wrong to take from "people" (companies) who continuously make their profits based on the suffering, low wages, subjugation and exploitation of people that are ostensibly spending the best part of their lives working hard FOR THAT COMPANY'S PROFIT.
i do not entirely endorse communism (short, and hugely simplified run-down: communism = a system wherein everybody gets rewarded for the actual *labour* that they put into the system; capitalism = everybody gets rewarded for the intelligence, thought, and infrastructure that they put in, entirely regardless of the effort), because i think it is necessary to award good ideas, good thinkers, and people who can come up with (necessary, imo) infrastructure. but i absolutely abhor the fact that our current form of capitalism rewards and rewards and rewards and rewards these people, entirely at the detriment of the people putting in the (just-as-necessary labour). i don't want every single person to have the same fucking wage; what i want is more of a balance so that at least we can all be comfortable.
jesus, that turned into quite a rant (and i think i lost the topic somewhere in the second paragraph), so i might have to get back to this in the morning. but feel free to respond with any criticisms or agreeances (that is not a word but i don't care
).
Strawberry_lovemuffin
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onetwothreefour said:but feel free to respond with any criticisms or agreeances (that is not a word but i don't care
I believe the word you're searching for is "agreements"
And on that note, I have to state I totally agree with your whole post, surprisingly coherent that it was . I would have no problems stealing food if I were starving, or as a temporary measure of some sort, but I don't agree that corporations deserve to be stolen from or that we somehow have the right to bestow bad karma on those who create it. It's not for us to judge. We do what we have to to survive; but beyond that it's just misguided anger.
keystroke
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1234, I agree with having to steal food for your family to live. but as I said a few pages back, I don't agree with going to Kmart and stealing a DVD.
in a first world country, such as this, theft shouldn't be "acceptable" no matter what or who you are stealing from.
perhaps in third world countries, this would be different.
in a first world country, such as this, theft shouldn't be "acceptable" no matter what or who you are stealing from.
perhaps in third world countries, this would be different.
lostpunk5545
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Strawberry_lovemuffin said:
I seriously don't think it is misguided anger. There are people doing evil (not in some churchy satany way) and someone needs to point the finger. I don't believe in god or karma, and I also don't see these pricks ever getting back the shit they put on others.
And nice post 1234, I agree that in theory capitalism, just like communism, and democracy is a good system. Unfortunatley the world seems to be inhabited by a lot of decent people, and a few greedy, power-hungry mongrels who live in luxury off the rest of us like vampires.
And I've linked to this 3 or 4 times before but Particapatory Economics is my favourite alternative at the moment. No need to steal in that society
Strawberry_lovemuffin
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But don't you think that's a bit of a utopian view, lostpunk? ![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Also, in your link it mentions "renumeration in accordance with effort and sacrifice".... what I see is that, for a lot of these corporations, the people who've built them up have made a lot of effort and sacrifice.... they've become sucesses through hard work. They're not just nameless logos, there are people behind there, who've had a vision and worked towards it. I do agree that hoarding all their wealth while so many others suffer seems somewhat unfair, but as far as I see it, that's the way the world has always worked... I don't see it changing anytime soon. For every selfish and unscrupulous businessman I'm sure there are others trying to do the right thing and share somewhat of their fortune to charities etc. I think you are stepping too far back and forgetting that there are people behind the brands and logos; probably hard working people like you and I.
It's regrettable, this situation we find ourselves in... the inequality bugs me too... but I try to start close to home to change things rather than grabbing my big wide brush and railing against 'corporations'... that's the way it is now, we need to live with it, and live within it.
Also, in your link it mentions "renumeration in accordance with effort and sacrifice".... what I see is that, for a lot of these corporations, the people who've built them up have made a lot of effort and sacrifice.... they've become sucesses through hard work. They're not just nameless logos, there are people behind there, who've had a vision and worked towards it. I do agree that hoarding all their wealth while so many others suffer seems somewhat unfair, but as far as I see it, that's the way the world has always worked... I don't see it changing anytime soon. For every selfish and unscrupulous businessman I'm sure there are others trying to do the right thing and share somewhat of their fortune to charities etc. I think you are stepping too far back and forgetting that there are people behind the brands and logos; probably hard working people like you and I.
It's regrettable, this situation we find ourselves in... the inequality bugs me too... but I try to start close to home to change things rather than grabbing my big wide brush and railing against 'corporations'... that's the way it is now, we need to live with it, and live within it.
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lostpunk5545
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^ I'll live with it but I'll never ever accept that this is right.
And I've mentioned before as a response to rich people working hard. There are only 24 hours in a day. No person can ever work that hard that they can possiblbly own that much of a percentage of the country's money fairly.
Oh and there is nothing wrong with a utopian world objective, because quite simply it works like this. Either the human race will find a way for everyone to get along in the future, or we will become extinct. There is just not enough room or resources on this planet for all our petty bullshit to allow us to survive the way we are going.
"You've convinced me that a working class stiff (but a proud one!) is what I am, and that for a minimum wage in this state-run cage that I should always do the best I fucking can. Just do what I'm told till I'm too old to move my broken, twisted, carcass out of bed. Don't take a stand, just take commands until I'm dead" - Propagandhi
And I've mentioned before as a response to rich people working hard. There are only 24 hours in a day. No person can ever work that hard that they can possiblbly own that much of a percentage of the country's money fairly.
Oh and there is nothing wrong with a utopian world objective, because quite simply it works like this. Either the human race will find a way for everyone to get along in the future, or we will become extinct. There is just not enough room or resources on this planet for all our petty bullshit to allow us to survive the way we are going.
"You've convinced me that a working class stiff (but a proud one!) is what I am, and that for a minimum wage in this state-run cage that I should always do the best I fucking can. Just do what I'm told till I'm too old to move my broken, twisted, carcass out of bed. Don't take a stand, just take commands until I'm dead" - Propagandhi
drEaMtiMe*@#
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Bent: Laws are created and implemented by governments- -> government bodies that are in power will always try to setup rules which will help empower and maintain their systems continued control. Therefore, just because something is technically "legal" or "illegal" never means that it is also necessarily morally right.
And, where did you get the idea that i am advocating stealing? i said that stealing is not right- i've pointed this out several times.... that is, pointless stealing is wrong other than in life or death situations where i find it plausible.
Again I was trying to make a relevant point through the nike example (because clothes are something that all of us wear) by pointing out that imo corporations steal from you when they sell you things for ten times the price that they payed for them. I think it's wrong to do it just because you can- all in the name of business and profit. As i said it is the abuse of power. They are ripping the buyers and the worker off, and that's a fact. It may be legal to do it but its still not right.
Also I'd just like to clarify that for me personally although i am against the majority of the ways in which the capitalist system fosters their economy and power- does not automatically mean that i in turn endorse communism- as a system I do believe that it has some good humanistic elements, but mainly like 1234 said, being able to find some sort of balance would be nice. That is all.
And, where did you get the idea that i am advocating stealing? i said that stealing is not right- i've pointed this out several times.... that is, pointless stealing is wrong other than in life or death situations where i find it plausible.
Again I was trying to make a relevant point through the nike example (because clothes are something that all of us wear) by pointing out that imo corporations steal from you when they sell you things for ten times the price that they payed for them. I think it's wrong to do it just because you can- all in the name of business and profit. As i said it is the abuse of power. They are ripping the buyers and the worker off, and that's a fact. It may be legal to do it but its still not right.
Also I'd just like to clarify that for me personally although i am against the majority of the ways in which the capitalist system fosters their economy and power- does not automatically mean that i in turn endorse communism- as a system I do believe that it has some good humanistic elements, but mainly like 1234 said, being able to find some sort of balance would be nice. That is all.
lostpunk5545 said:
So for example a business such the hugely successful, worldwide business The Body Shop is evil? Success doesn't automatically = evil.
Clearly we're never going to agree, but not all successful business is built on the corpses of the little guy.
Strawberry_lovemuffin
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lostpunk... I admire your ideals There's a lot of apathy in our society today. As long as these kinds of moral crusades have some forward momentum, and they're for the right reasons (ie. not springing from a hidden victim mentality or resentment of others' success), no-one can really argue that your heart is in the right place.
I guess I just prefer a more positive and embracing outlook...
There's a lot of apathy in our society today. As long as these kinds of moral crusades have some forward momentum, and they're for the right reasons (ie. not springing from a hidden victim mentality or resentment of others' success), no-one can really argue that your heart is in the right place.I guess I just prefer a more positive and embracing outlook...
lostpunk5545
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"Dream Of Unity" - Bad Religion
I had a dream of Unity
Where we would work side by side
But today I see that it's only me
Just trying to get by
Sometimes we strive, undeterred
To walk as one toward our goal
But as people stray toward more selfish ways
We see we have no control
I had a dream of Unity
Where we would work side by side
But today I see that it's only me
Just trying to get by
Just trying to get by
I had a dream of Unity
Where we would work side by side
But today I see that it's only me
Just trying to get by
Sometimes we strive, undeterred
To walk as one toward our goal
But as people stray toward more selfish ways
We see we have no control
I had a dream of Unity
Where we would work side by side
But today I see that it's only me
Just trying to get by
Just trying to get by