Phenethylamines Self experiments with new series of NXXX-phenylethylamines

[Hans Meyer]

Really interesting read Not sure if its been mentioned but - what length of time do you leave in between tests?

That´s a very important point! The time between tests I unfortunately didn´t care : sometimes one or few days, sometimes some weeks. Sometimes I mentioned it in the protocol. Roughly the power is (depends on substance) two or more times higher when waiting some weeks between tests, compared to a waiting time of 1 or 2 days only.

 

[Hans Meyer]

I don't think any of the 2,4,5 compounds would be very enjoyable because the natural oil which they are based upon, asarone, produces extreme nausea;
On the other hand, elemicin or isoelemicin (3,4,5s) are not reported to cause vomiting. I've found that every 2,4,5 compound I've tried makes me feel miserable. I think it may be a characteristic of the 2,4,5 substitution. Also, the fact that they are ethers (the methoxy parts) is probably why they are so irritating to tissue, like when you snort them. I have to assume that anything which is that irritating to the nose is probably not doing any part of your body that it touches any good. I've given up on the PEAs myself, after finding them all to have way too much unpleasant physical effects. Unless you find one that doesn't cause nausea there isn't much reason to use them over lysergamides and tryptamines. Those natural phenylpropenes are produced by the plants to ward off fungus and possibly insects. That suggests to me that those methoxy compounds are probably not good to ingest, even in modified form. I'm also guessing that mescaline is produced by cacti for a similar purpose.

Interesting points of view! It´s true, I myself prefer the 345-pattern also (in combination with the PEA-structure), they seems to me more "friendly". On the other hand: the 2C-X series I like also. Nausea I never felt, neither with the 345- or the 245-, nor the PEA- or the Amph. structure.

 

[Hans Meyer]

DMPEA-N3TM or 34-N3TM date 140706

*****************************
DMPEA-N3TM or 34-N3TM date 140707
*****************************
IUPAC-Name:
2-(3,4-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-(3-thienylmethyl)ethanamine

structure:

Trial 1...5:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M=277 g/Mol): 7...400
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.15...8.3 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: na
Notes: with 8.3 mg (neat, powder): nothing (?)


Trial 6:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 277 g/Mol): 800
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 17 mg (neat, powder)
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: na
Notes: May be a trace of an effect. To much material for correct s.l. application, in so far: effect unsure.

 

[Hans Meyer]

2C-D-N3TM or 25Me-N3TM date 140707

******************************
2C-D-N3TM or 25Me-N3TM date 140707
******************************
IUPAC-Name:
2-(2,5-Dimethoxy-4-methyl-phenyl)-N-(3-thienylmethyl)ethanamine

structure:

Trial 1:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M=308 g/Mol): 2.8
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.06 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: na
Notes: no effects

Trial 2:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 7
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.15 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: na
Notes: unsure effects

Trial 3:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 21
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.46 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: short
Notes: above threhold, psycholytic unsure

Trial 4:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 42
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.92 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: ~ 3h
Notes: Irritations; tinnitus; something happens. Morale high; funny talks; easyly
find formulations. Significant? I don´t know. Nearly no effects.

Trial 5:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M=308 g/Mol): 99
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 2.2 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: ~ 4h
Notes: 1,5 h ago!: shift in meaning, optic, thoughts, acustic, psycholytic (+?), good sleep. Something anesthetic to tongue.

Trial 6:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 127
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 2.8 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: ~ 5h
Notes: sharp view; very o.k.; more intense colors, psycholytic (+?)

Trial 7:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 280
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 6.1 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: ~ 5h
Notes: very positive; concentration only seemingly disturbed, increased sensibility of all senses, no body load. Psycholytic (+?); positive feeling; good sleep; guess as potent as 2C-D (or more), but more positive.

Trial 8:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 440
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 9.6 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (neat, as powder)
Duration: ~ 6h
Notes: Positive, increased sensibility of all senses, slightly increased pulse. Compared to the psycholytic effect: may be a slightly uncomfortable coming up. Psycholytic (+...++?); good sleep. Reversibly anesthetic to the tongue; significantly more potent than 2C-D.
______________________________
Comments:
Heterocycles as the benzyl-part may be also potent and worth to be checked as this example shows (hoping new qualities). E.g.: 2-Thenylmethyl, (1-R-pyrrol-2/3-yl)methyl-, R=H, alkyl... and so on, 2- or 3-pyridylmethyl...etc. And these all also with different substitution (e.g. 2-OCH3, 2-Oet,...). BRADEN et al. also investigated some {heterocycles-CH2-} instead of the {benzyl-} and found them partly active: BRADEN, doctoral thesis "Towards a Biophysical Understanding of Hallucinogen Action".

More details can be seen here (Russian Hyperlab, they accept English too):
https://www.hyperlab.info/inv/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=31174
(and click "continue" further down)
Own comments need registration i.e. under
https://www.hyperlab.info/inv/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=30352&lang=en
The links are SURE! despite warnings.

 

[Solipsis]

I don't think any of the 2,4,5 compounds would be very enjoyable because the natural oil which they are based upon, asarone, produces extreme nausea;

Maybe asarone itself has that quality, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about other compounds that have a 2,4,5 substitution on a phenyl ring. Which is SO general! Also there are so many compounds that have a methoxy on them, you can't just condemn them all because of that... unless you have a very good reason to make those claims.
Look at 2C-O-4, I don't see any mention or nausea.

I don't believe methoxy moieties make a chemical caustic to snort for example, but rather it is the dehydrating, redox- and acidity related properties the entire molecule and it's macroscopic properties that make a substance scolding to mucous membranes and registered as hurtful by nerve terminals. I wouldn't know why the methoxies would be reactive, they just contribute their small part to the electronic distribution etc.

Seems silly to say that all 2,4,5-PEAs would be bad, there are so many 2C-X, 25X and DOX compounds and I never heard about them generally producing significantly more nausea than say tryptamines, or say the Xescalines... the latter are actually known to produce nausea almost reliably. Read some mescaline and AL reports!
Later you do say that you do suspect that mescaline may also be produced as a deterrent yet it is not a phenylpropene compound nor a 2,4,5-subbed PEA. However before that you suggested that elemicin derivatives may not have these negative effects, self-contradiction?

So excuse me but my opinion is that it is tricky to associate certain effects of drugs with particular parts of the structural formula, or at least when you try to apply the same judgements on compounds that are just different. Smells like junk science sar talk.

 

[Jesusgreen]

Any chance you could use the Shulgin scale in your reports? I see you've used it in some but not all.

This is really interesting and cool to read but some of the short descriptions for your trials make it hard to gauge how active it is at that dose, since you've paid a lot of attention to the interesting little details but haven't made as much mention of the overall intensity in some of them. Hope that's not being picky, I'd just like to get a clearer picture of what these are like

This is some great work, thank you for sharing it :D I'd love to hear even more about these compounds.

 

[jason7]

Maybe asarone itself has that quality, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about other compounds that have a 2,4,5 substitution on a phenyl ring. Which is SO general! Also there are so many compounds that have a methoxy on them, you can't just condemn them all because of that... unless you have a very good reason to make those claims.
Look at 2C-O-4, I don't see any mention or nausea.

I don't believe methoxy moieties make a chemical caustic to snort for example, but rather it is the dehydrating, redox- and acidity related properties the entire molecule and it's macroscopic properties that make a substance scolding to mucous membranes and registered as hurtful by nerve terminals. I wouldn't know why the methoxies would be reactive, they just contribute their small part to the electronic distribution etc.

Seems silly to say that all 2,4,5-PEAs would be bad, there are so many 2C-X, 25X and DOX compounds and I never heard about them generally producing significantly more nausea than say tryptamines, or say the Xescalines... the latter are actually known to produce nausea almost reliably. Read some mescaline and AL reports!
Later you do say that you do suspect that mescaline may also be produced as a deterrent yet it is not a phenylpropene compound nor a 2,4,5-subbed PEA. However before that you suggested that elemicin derivatives may not have these negative effects, self-contradiction?

So excuse me but my opinion is that it is tricky to associate certain effects of drugs with particular parts of the structural formula, or at least when you try to apply the same judgements on compounds that are just different. Smells like junk science sar talk.

I suppose you're right. Yeah, I did forget that mescaline was an actual amine rather than a propene like the other compounds I mentioned, so it probably wasn't made by the cactus as an antifungal like the others. Maybe it was just intended to make animals have a bad experience and therefore not want to eat it again, like frightening visions. And I guess mescaline produces as much nausea as the 2,4,5 compounds too so it's not just them that have that effect. I just read that thing about the 15 hours of vomiting from asarone and thought it might have some connection to why 2Cx compounds have such strong nauseating qualities. Probably no real connection I guess. And, yeah, the tryptamines did cause me about the same degree of unpleasantness as the 2Cx and NBOMes. Actually LSD is the only one that I can really tolerate. I don't know why it has so much less bodyload. I can't think of one other psych that I've tried that didn't cause me a lot of discomfort, to the degree that it ruined any chance of enjoying the experience. They always just made me wish it would hurry up and be over.

 

[jason7]

*****************************
DMPEA-N3TM or 34-N3TM date 140707
*****************************
IUPAC-Name:
2-(3,4-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-(3-thienylmethyl)ethanamine

structure:

Trial 1...5:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M=277 g/Mol): 7...400
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.15...8.3 mg
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: na
Notes: with 8.3 mg (neat, powder): nothing (?)


Trial 6:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 277 g/Mol): 800
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 17 mg (neat, powder)
Route of Administration: s.l.
Duration: na
Notes: May be a trace of an effect. To much material for correct s.l. application, in so far: effect unsure.

I wouldn't even bother trying dimethoxy ones. The dimethoxy PEAs had no effect whatsoever, as reported in whatever scientific journals I read about them in. You have to have at least three methoxy groups to have any significant effects apparently. There is something you haven't tried though, the 2,3,4,5 ones. Parsley seed oil contains significant amounts of that form of phenylpropene. I think it was 2,5 dimethoxy, 3,4 methylenedioxy. In fact, since you're doing various syntheses, you might think about trying to get some parsley seed oil and seeing what kind of effects you get from taking the crystals that precipitate when you put it in the freezer for a while and making them into the ketone by treating with potassium persulfate solution (swimming pool oxy "shock" powder) and aminating them with ammonium formate or sodium borohydride methods. What precipitates from the parsley seed oil is the 2,3,4,5 compound I mentioned and also the 3,4 methylene dioxy, 5 methoxy compound known as Apiol. The mixture of the two should have an interesting range of effects, maybe better than either one alone.

You would want to get German, Hungarian or Indian Parsley Seed oil, since those are the ones with high Apiol content. Other strains are mostly Myristicin, which does produce a hallucinogen but probably not as interesting a one as Apiol and the 3,4,5,6 compound would. You would need to isomerize them by heating with potassium hydroxide before the persulfate oxidation though, to move the double bond from the end of the carbon chain to the middle part, like they do with safrole when making MDMA. The parsley compounds are exactly the same as safrole but with methoxy groups on the ring in addition to the methylene dioxy part. Should be a pretty good drug actually. I have read reports on it. The aminated Apiol compound was said to be very much like LSD as 75 mg. A guy named Rhodium wrote a few articles on the persulfate epoxidation of safrole for making MDMA so you could just look those up to get the details. Just substitute the Parsley compounds for the safrole.

 

[Solipsis]

I guess you are just sensitive to getting nausea from those 2,4,5 compounds (and trypts etc) jason... I guess that sucks and maybe the common remedies like ginger, lemon oil, papaya extract or pharms like ondansetron could offer you relief. But as far as I can tell it is a relatively idiosyncratic reaction to get such heavy nausea from all of them, seems important to realize that it is not a general common phenomenon, at least for the discussion at hand. Have you tried ondansetron or is the discomfort more encompassing than just nausea?

Also please take it easy with the synth talk.

Agreed about the DMPEAs, not because they are all guaranteed to fail to be active entirely (2C-H is inactive but 25-NBOMe - what could be called 25H - appears to be active but nasty, I read that it was found to be horribly adrenergic feeling). So there are things worse than inactivity, and the whole catecholamine derivation smells like bad news, if only considering the sensations they may give.
Plus: I think you do not want to get demethylated 3,4 dihydroxy metabolites, might be dangerous?

 

[Hans Meyer]

Any chance you could use the Shulgin scale in your reports? I see you've used it in some but not all.
This is really interesting and cool to read but some of the short descriptions for your trials make it hard to gauge how active it is at that dose, since you've paid a lot of attention to the interesting little details but haven't made as much mention of the overall intensity in some of them. Hope that's not being picky, I'd just like to get a clearer picture of what these are like
This is some great work, thank you for sharing it :D I'd love to hear even more about these compounds.

You are very very right! I myself also would like to have a more objective view to the different efficiencies. But it is how it is, how the substance, and set and setting, reweals itself to me. I really try to describe what happens to me and don´t fantasize. Please have in mind, that I wrote the notes during session (and that disturbs the settings also more or less, on the other hand the feelings were wrote down authentically as they turned out) and I wrote it here without any change. Shulgin´s scale (+...+++) is also to vaguely formulated for me (may be he gave a more objective description, that I didn´t realized from his PIHKAL - because of my bad English I only read the experimental part). When I gave a + or a ++, I am not sure whether it fits Shulgin´s definition. To differ it, I better should have chosen another scale. It is an unclear choice, I must say now. Also of great influence is the time between trails, which I gave too little attention. But the main purpose of these trails on different new substances is first to show, whether they have an activity, to give a very first impression of possible mental altering (of mine!) and an order of magnitude of sure doses (to me!). Which I always take to my heart and which I like to pass on, are Shulgin´s words: " Make´em and taste´em". I will continue to craft new substances and post my subjective impressions.

 

[Shamanism]

Perhaps it is possible to compare your compounds intensity weight/kg to a known material that it reminds you of in weight/kg. So where possible perhaps people could translate/relate that to the Shulgin scale or a material they know the effects off at a certain dose?

Like for Shulgin:
30mg of 2C-D would result in a ++ and
45mg of 2C-D would result in a +++ experience
Maybe not the best example regarding potency here but there probably are other well established compounds similar in potency perhaps, DOx or NBOMe?

Maybe in this way you could 'calibrate your personal intensity scale' with a material you have access to and are familiar with from PiHKAL or TiHKAL and try to reach the same intensity level with your new material (be it threshold, ++ or +++).

Also AFAIK some psychedelics result in more body load at threshold and reveil more of their true character at "++ and +++" levels but that might be a bad advice for some materials, so do whatever you feel and think is right Hans.

I don't know if this is of any help at all to you, but wanted to throw some ideas around and perhaps suggest a way to make your research results translate better to others.

Good luck with your experiments!

 

[jason7]

I guess you are just sensitive to getting nausea from those 2,4,5 compounds (and trypts etc) jason... I guess that sucks and maybe the common remedies like ginger, lemon oil, papaya extract or pharms like ondansetron could offer you relief. But as far as I can tell it is a relatively idiosyncratic reaction to get such heavy nausea from all of them, seems important to realize that it is not a general common phenomenon, at least for the discussion at hand. Have you tried ondansetron or is the discomfort more encompassing than just nausea?

Also please take it easy with the synth talk.

Agreed about the DMPEAs, not because they are all guaranteed to fail to be active entirely (2C-H is inactive but 25-NBOMe - what could be called 25H - appears to be active but nasty, I read that it was found to be horribly adrenergic feeling). So there are things worse than inactivity, and the whole catecholamine derivation smells like bad news, if only considering the sensations they may give.
Plus: I think you do not want to get demethylated 3,4 dihydroxy metabolites, might be dangerous?

Oh right, you don't like synth details on this forum. Sorry, forgot about that. Now about the 3,4 dihydroxy PEA, that would be dopamine itself. However, that raises the question of 2,4,5 compounds being related to 2,4,5 trihydroxyphenethylamine, AKA; oxidopamine. Nasty stuff, apparently.

Oxidopamine, also known as 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) or 2,4,5-trihydroxyphenethylamine, is a neurotoxic synthetic organic compound used by researchers to selectively destroy dopaminergic and noradrenergic neurons in the brain. 6-OHDA is thought to enter the neurons via the dopamine and noradrenaline (norepinephrine) reuptake transporters. Oxidopamine is often used in conjunction with a selective noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor (such as desipramine) to selectively destroy dopaminergic neurons only.

The main use for oxidopamine in scientific research is to induce Parkinsonism in laboratory animals such as mice, rats and monkeys, in order to develop and test new medicines and treatments for Parkinson's disease. In order to induce this condition in animals, around 70% of the dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra of the brain must be destroyed, and this is achieved either with oxidopamine or MPTP. Both these agents likely destroy neurons by generating reactive oxygen species such as superoxide radical. Oxidopamine toxicity in neonatal rodents is also used as an animal model for the Lesch-Nyhan syndrome.[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidopamine

So that makes one wonder about the safety of the psychedelic 2,4,5 methoxy and related compounds. I know that they haven't been shown to be neurotoxic but still they are awfully close to oxydopamine.

Regarding me using anti-nausea agents to help with the nausea I get from most psychs, I've tried the ginger based anti-nausea tablets and also diphenhydramine. Neither were effective. You need a prescription to get ondansetron in Canada so I can't buy it. I suppose I could ask a doctor to prescribe it but it might be a little hard to explain why I need it.The discomfort I get from non-LSD psychs is more than just nausea, it's like being ill with the flu or something. I guess you could liken the feeling to being poisoned. t appears that my body is more sensitive to psych compounds than most people's.

I even get pretty severe tremors all over from AL-LAD, which most people say has little or no bodyload. I don't recall being nauseous from it but I felt really uncomfortable, again it felt like being poisoned. That was from two hits though. One hit still gave me unpleasant tremors, but I didn't feel uncomfortable all over like I did with two. I didn't get very high from one hit either. Basically what I got was just some minor movement in psychedelic imagse. I looked for some on the web to see how they would look on AL-LAD. Like I said, it was just some minor movement. I did get that LSD thing where you want to spread peace and love though, from one hit. I turned into a total flower child. Kind of bugs me when that happens because later when I get back to normal I think "boy, was I ever acting weird", being all lovey-dovey and shit. Not that there's anything wrong with being a peace and love type person for a few hours, or even all the time. Just that I don't normally think that way, at least not to that degree.

 

[Hans Meyer]

How to measure depth of feeling?

Hi Shamanism, high thanks for Your proposals, and that You like to get into this problematic field!

Also AFAIK some psychedelics result in more body load at threshold and reveil more of their true character at "++ and +++" levels but that might be a bad advice for some materials, so do whatever you feel and think is right Hans.

I got the impression over the years I have studied Shulgin´s book „PIHKAL“ (the experimental part only), that his scale +, ++, +++ also mix the body-load-effects with the psychodelic/psycholytic quality/quantity, but in his „Qualitative Comments“ he clarified strictly necessaryly what really is to be understood. So these comments are the more and even most important messages to me. From a naturalistic point of view it is legitimately desirable to find a Quantitative Structure Activity Relationship (QSAR) for a medically active substance. That is indeed possible only for objectively measurable quantities like brain-consumption of glucose or the equilibrium constant of a reaction with a certain receptor etc. The depth of feeling or inside-view is not measurable; that will be placed on humanities research. Nevertheless body reactions, often summed up under the term „body load“, can have therapeutical values; for they can show unconscious conflict processing at the physical level, and may therefore be a part of deep insight into our own bodily organization (hope I could express what I wanted to say). I realized again and again how most important are set and setting to the quality and quantity of a trip with halluzinogens.
Therefore the only semi-quantitative results I can guess, is the comparison of the efficiency of tested PEA-NDEPA and PEA-NBX with the special PEA respectively. For many of the Psychodelic-User are familiar with the different PEA´s, such an approach gave IMHO a sufficiently near overall picture. When I gave a + or ++, so I must say now, that I rather would like to remove it.

 

[Hans Meyer]

2C-D-NB25diOMe or 25Me-NB25diOMe date 140712

*************************************
2C-D-NB25diOMe or 25Me-NB25diOMe date 140712
*************************************

IUPAC-Name:
2-(4-methyl-2,4-dimethoxy-phenyl-N-[(2,5-dimethoxy-phenyl)methyl]ethanamine
or shorter:
2-(4-methyl-2,4-dimethoxy-phenyl-N-(2,5-dimethoxy-benzyl)ethanamine

structure:

Trial 1:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M=345 g/Mol): 6.0
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.16 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 30´ at 22:15 h
Duration: ~ 3...6 (?) h
Notes: Unambiguous response, smooth, light, pleasant. Sleep o.k. depth of sleep was hardly disturbed ; more sensitive and optical details; less stimulating/potent than 2C-C-NB25diOMe; another quality of the effects than 2C-D/2C-C; psychodelic ~ above threshold; 12h later still some weak effects. In the morning: lower central/anti-depressing effects left compared with the 2C-C-analog, a little exhausted comparable with alkohol (but no headaches); ~5 (or more) times more intense than 2C-D.

Trial 2:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 3.3
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.086 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 30´ at 21:00 h
Duration: > 4 h
Notes: unambiguous response, smooth, light, pleasant. Sleep quiete o.k. depth of sleep was hardly disturbed ; psychodelic: ~ above threshold; a little exhausted comparable with alkohol (but no headaches!), a little bit depressed; more intense than 2C-D. Next day in the morning depressed because of bad dream/emotion/feeling, afternoon o.k.

Trial 3:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 308 g/Mol): 0.48
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.012 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 15´ at 20:15 h
Duration: > 7 h
Notes: To bed at ~22:30h; smooth, velvety mood, little bit a destabilized sight. Depth of sleep was a little bit disturbed; more tinnitus; don´t keep always a level head as with the 2C-C-analog: nearly not so pleasant holiday resort. Next day: All day long on the ball, no depressions! Communicative, a little bit euphoric.


More details can be seen here (Russian Hyperlab, they accept English too):
https://www.hyperlab.info/inv/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=31339
(and click "continue" further down)
The links are SURE! despite warnings.

 

[Shamanism]

Do I understand correctly Hans, that you compare 2C-D-NB25diOMe to 2C-D (4-methyl-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine)? And at what dose?

I ask this because I was under the impression that this is a more potent material, than known phenetylamines like 2C-D and similar to NBOMe?

Also AFAIK (please correct me where I'm wrong) for example a dose of LSD doesn't really relate to bodyweight anymore regarding intensity / effects at least not nearly as much as with MDMA.

I don't know if this is the case here, so I am curious how to interpret your findings.

 

[Hans Meyer]

2C-C-NB25diOMe or 25Cl-NB25diOMe date 140713

*************************************
2C-C-NB25diOMe or 25Cl-NB25diOMe date 140713
*************************************
(I will show not all my trials, I picked out the most informatives only.)

IUPAC-Name:
2-(4-chloro-2,5-dimethoxy-phenyl)-N-[(2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)methyl]ethanamine
or shorter:
2-(4-chloro-2,5-dimethoxy-phenyl)-N-(2,5-dimethoxybenzyl)ethanamine

structure:

Trial 1:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M=366 g/Mol): 1.9
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.052 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (30´; in the morning)
Duration: ~ 3...? h
Notes: above threshold; more sensitive and optical details; at night instructive dream; backflash next morning in bed, smooth pleasant faintness; more intense than 2C-C

Trial 2:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 4
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.11 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (35´; in the morning)
Duration: ~ 3...? h
Notes: my bad cold increased; should not go on trip! blood-pressure slightly decreased, pulse slightly increased; more sensitive and optical details, but bad humor because of a bad cold; sleep good, but depressions; will repeat under better conditions; more intense than 2C-C

Trial 4:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 2.7
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.074 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (20´; 22:25 h)
Duration: ≤ 12 h
Notes: good sleep, but a little bit not so deep as usual. Therefore perhaps a little bit to much for the aimed purpose: avoiding the morning depression; throughout the day refreshed

Trial 7:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 1.8
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.050 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (25´; 21:50 h)
Duration: na
Notes: good sleep, but sometimes long lasting phase of sleep-onset, with quickly changing artistic pictures; as test Nr. 3; throughout the day refreshed

Trial 11:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 2.35
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.064 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (20´; 23:10 h)
Duration: ≤ 13 h
Notes: sleep not quite o.k., between 2:30 and 3:30h only half-asleep with restless pictures; sleep a little bit not so deep as usual; throughout the day refreshed, but nevertheless don't feel well rested. Next day: good sleep but bad dreams at wake-up; light depressions in the morning. Second day: good sleep; very slight depressions in the morning; day quite o.k.

Trial 15:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 8.2
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.225 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (27´; ~9:00 h)
Duration: ≤ 13 h
Notes: Half an hour before: 43 mg Mescaline (M) as hydrogentartrate, oral empty stomach, at ~8:30h.
psycholytic yes, but no Mescaline-typical visual effects; next three days without any depression! 17:45h very pleasant feeling, nearly euphoric; every surroundings seems very fresh to me; very good sleep at night; no body load, therefore next I will take more. Mix with M is it! 2C-C-NB25diOMe is in rough estimate >10 times more intense than 2C-C.

Trial 16:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 6.8
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.187 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. (35´; ~7:45 h)
Duration: 3...? h
Notes: 9:40h breakfast; 10:00h fine structures and colours of the vicinity captivate the attention (micro-eyes); pleasant, only weak body reactions; 11:00h Nordic Walking more than 2h; weak-kneed, feel cold, thoughts clear, nevertheless with a dull sensation in my head simulating anaesthesia. Keen eyes, more agressiv. Optical perspectives not completely corrected by brain. blood pr. little bit down; pulse constant; psychodelic(~+); after just 3h beginning of coming down and smooth afterglow; refreshed and pleasant feelings; roughly estimated: >10 times more intense than 2C-C

Trial 17:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 1.4
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.039 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 25´ at 19:00 h
Duration: ≤ 13 h
Notes: good sleep at ~23:00h; 2-times I woke up feeling still significant effects each time. Depth of sleep was not completely satisfactory, but quite ok. 8:00h next morning still feel little effects, 11:00 nordic walking, and everything was ok; no depressions; whole day refreshed. taken before sleep, even small dose cause long and significant feeling of effects, may be caused by lower metabolic rate at night (?)

Trial 18:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 5.7
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.157 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 25´ at 11:00 h.
Duration: ≤ 10 h
Notes: Nordic walking immediately (-5°C, strong wind), was very ok! 1h sleep in the afternoon. 20:45h still weak effects; all day ok! No depressions. Think that twice the amount would also be very ok (but will last even longer); throughout the day refreshed; rough estimate >10 times more intense than 2C-C;

Trial 20:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 1.4
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.039 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 35´ at 6:00 h
Duration: 5...17(?) h
Notes: Excellent smooth effects, world seems to me fresh and clear; psychodelic(+), inside view. 11:00h: 1,5h nordic walking, very beautyful; very nice coming down and afterglow; good day , no depressions. Next day: all ok, no depressions.

Trial 21:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 8.9
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.244 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 24´ at 8:00 h
Duration: 5...? h
Notes: 8:30h smooth response, 9:00h stronger; 9:40h shopping, no difficulties, little talk with a friend: nice and totally loose. 10:15h 2h nordic walking, very nice, no stress. 450 to 500µg may be also o.k.(I thought in that moment!). 12:40h little lunch with fish, bread+butter, tee. Some very deep impressions of the surrounding. 13:00h un-concentrated, still powerful. Deep sleep for ~1½ h, very restful. 16:00h drug still working, but descending. Feel refreshed and exhausted at the same moment. 23:00h to bed, sleep very good, no deminished depth of sleep. Next day little bit exhausted, mainly by nordic walking (which was much more intensive compared without the drug). Next time 350µg only (instead of 450µg!). 11:00h short nap, and I was very refreshed. I am in a good shape. Drug works some days on a very low level, consuming more than let say ~250 µg.

Trial 24:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 8.9
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.244 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 25´ at 7:40 h
Duration: > 8 h
Notes: 7:00h ~50mg Mescaline-hydrogentartrate o.e.s.
8:45h rel. uncomfortable coming up: threatening fear (fear only!) of hopeless depression. 9:30h bad feeling did not stop. 10:30 h full up! 10:45h 2h nordic walking. Generally o.k. But my impressions were slowed down, similar to a filter, or a fog, feeling of restriction, controlled from afar, without contact to the surrounding environment. Such feelings at higher doses may lead to a horror-trip. 13:00h little bit morphing. 13:30h slowly went down. I did not drop me-internally. Afterglow also not so impressiv as usually, but nothing else of depression. A little bit komplex trip!

Trial 25:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 0.22
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.006 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. 20´ at 23.30 h
Duration: na
Notes: Shortly before sleep, 8h refreshed sleep, o.k; wake up in the morning without the usual depressive fearful feelings and thoughts. All day o.k. In the meantime I took 3...7 µg very often in the evening, and my usual morning depression was gone nearly every time I used it. So it seems to me, that even very low dose in the evening can diminish depressions at the following day (in my case of course!). At night/sleep 2C-C-25diOMe works more intensive and with other quality than at day.

Trial 26:
Salt: Chloride
Dose of free base [nMol/kg]; (M= 366 g/Mol): 0.26
Dose [mg] of free base related to a 75 kg body: 0.007 mg
Route of Administration: s.l. ~15´at 15:00 h
Duration: >8 h...?
Notes: 15:30h relatively strong response, bad concentration. Everything quite normal, but overhanging objects (echoing a little bit LSD: things streched out, sweeping movements though things remind normal when fix it with eyes, seem to be like on a foreign planet). Intense impressions, nervous. 21:00h still working. 23:00h to bed, good sleep, but seems to be not as deep as usually. Note: all that with 7 µg! But: My last trip was 5 weeks ago!
Next day: ~8:00h: Next day woken with a nightmare; depressive in the morning, in the afternoon better. This time 2C-C-NB25diOMe was not antidepressant! Physically quite cheerfully, but spiritual depression. All together astonishingly that this small quantity showed such a relatively strong effect. Setting probably especially sensitively at the moment, presumably caused by a still continuing bad cold since two months; probably comes here that I was abstinent since ~5 weeks.
_______________________________________________________
General remarks:
Shortly before sleep has another and much more intensive effect, so I feel e.g. 6 µg all over the night. 3...6 µg! in the evening just before sleep, helps against my morning depression (not, if disturbed, by e.g. a bad cold). Taken more is not so valuable or even the opposite. Even small amounts taken after some weeks abstinent, can have an overwhelming effect (trial 26).
More information see https://www.hyperlab.info/inv/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=31341 and click "continue" at the bottom of the introducing site. These Russian sites are sure, despite warnings of the browser.

 

[Shamanism]

How wonderful and very interesting!

If the material is indeed more active at night I wonder what could cause this, perhaps interaction with something the body produces at night time like melatonin?
Also do you find your microdosing at night enhances dreaming / REM sleep?

 

[Hans Meyer]

How wonderful and very interesting!

If the material is indeed more active at night I wonder what could cause this, perhaps interaction with something the body produces at night time like melatonin?
Also do you find your microdosing at night enhances dreaming / REM sleep?

To precise it: Microdosing is more active and in another kind actve in sleeping mode, than during waking hours; I recognised it every time I woke up at night - and sleep afterwords again within let say 15 to 30 minutes. Microdosing just before sleep did not alter my dreaming, but it did so, if taking higher doses (e.g. > 15 µg). The highest dose I ever took was 244 µg, and that was really enough for me; higher doses at night caused in restless dreams and the sleep was not as deep as usual ( ~ 30...100 µg, e.g. trials 4, 7, 11, 17).

 

[Hans Meyer]

Do I understand correctly Hans, that you compare 2C-D-NB25diOMe to 2C-D (4-methyl-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine)? And at what dose? I ask this because I was under the impression that this is a more potent material, than known phenetylamines like 2C-D and similar to NBOMe?

Yes, I compared 2C-D with 2C-D-NB25diOMe, and wrote: " ~5 (or more) times more intense than 2C-D." That means that I guess that You must take roughly 5 times (or more) the amount of 2C-D to reach the effects of 1 times the amount of 2C-D-NB25diOMe (e.g. ≥ 0.8 mg 2C-D effects similar intensity-response than 0.16 mg of 2C-D-NB25diOMe does).

Also AFAIK (please correct me where I'm wrong) for example a dose of LSD doesn't really relate to bodyweight anymore regarding intensity / effects at least not nearly as much as with MDMA.

Surely it depends more on set and setting than on body weight. But traditionally physicians like to measure the response of a medicament in [response per (dose per body-weight)] or in similar units. Roughly you can imagine, that in general the response of 200 µg LSD - or even 1 L wine - to a 100 kg man is lower than that to a 60 kg one.

 

[jason7]

Thanks for doing this stuff and sharing the results, Hans. You're a true psychonaut.