Self administering botox on forehead?

[JohnBoy2000]

Extremely dangerous toxin I know.

Available through many suppliers however, and ridiculously expensive to get done through a clinic.

Has anyone done this themselves?

Bunch of youtube vids of people doing it.

But the occasional horror story of someone not getting the right intramuscular shot and fucking their face real good.

Any experiences?

 

[ckoretsky]

I've been doing my own botox for about 7 years. it's super easy. I buy from alibaba and it's usually good. The last two batches have been really weak, one from china, and one from Korea. The actual injecting is really easy and you can screw up but so can a doctor. I've given myself blurry vision, one eyelid half closed, not able to swallow, not able to pronounce p and b or keep food in my mouth. Its only for a couple weeks so it's no big deal.

 

[nuttynutskin]

 

[DopeM]

Dude, she says it's No ig Deal. I elieve her, rolly ecause she has such a retty face.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

About shipping conditions when ordering online.

Pro shipping from allergan is on dry ice but, they charge accordingly.

How Do You Store Your Botox? You May Just be Doing it Wrong.

Your Botox and other botulinum toxins may be safer left at room temperature than you think. Learn the range of storage conditions these drugs tolerate.

www.medicadepot.com

This article suggests botox potency at room temperature is actually minimally implicated.

@ckoretsky you comments are alarming.

I had intended to inject my glabellar complex and frontalis - i.e. brows and forehead.

Sounds like you do your mouth and chin also.

Blurred vision is the one that is particularly alarming - what went wrong there?
I've heard that can happen with dermal fillers.
Not heard that with botox however?

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Alibaba was where I was looking also for most cost effective purchase.

There's sources via steroidsourcetalk and meso also but, buying there is actually more expensive than buying in a local clinic.

However, there are no verified suppliers shipping botox, and only one I can find that uses trade assurance.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

On this topic, I've been doing some research, spoke with some doctors, pretty much investigated the matter of self injecting botox and basically want to archive some of my findings here - as I was a blank slate starting the process and good information on self injecting, despite its popularity, wasn't and isn't as readily available as you'd think.

Allergan being the main botulinum toxin A manufacturer used almost exclusively in skin clinics.
They use other brands where botox may not have sufficient outcome, but Allergan is the recommended supplier.

My main concern around self admin was and is, health, well being, not blinding myself etc.

Via the administering Dr at my local skin clinic, the danger of necrosis, blindness, nerve and vessel damage etc, is more so with dermal filler, like hyaluronic acid, when it may be injected into a blood vessel and block it.
Botox dilutes even if injected into a vein so apparently the dangers you'd have with filler re blindness etc, are absent with botox.

The danger with botox, according to sources and feedback I've got, when it comes to long term damage, is very small.
The injection is made intramuscularly or slightly superficial of intramusclar with many demo examples on youtube.

- There are also demo videos of gals self admining filler; my understanding is in the case of things going wrong, a counteractive enzyme is administered to neutralize/disperse the filler.

**
On the point of acquiring botox - Alibaba was my first point of call.

Chinese vs US botox

Comparison of Botox with a Chinese type A botulinum toxin - PubMed

Both preparation are safe and effective treatments for patients with focal dystonia and muscle spasm. They both have subclinical effects on neuromuscular transmission of remote uninjected muscles. The Chinese preparation is a little less powerful but much cheaper than Botox.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is criticism of chinese products, seemingly a reasonable amount of bunk product etc, and then some studies as above that list it as being slightly weaker, but far cheaper and ultimately similar efficacy.


Another source made known to me by another user of this forum is, Vianacare.
They have a list of shining reviews on trustpilot.

The conventional clinic admin of botox, runs roughly two to three times the cost of online purchase, possibly more depending on how long your vial lasts.

There's also sources on meso rx, eroids and steroidsourcetalk but cost wise, it seems to make little sense to buy from there.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

There's also the question of, purchasing botox, how long its self life is.

As in, if you only need 30 units but have a 100 IU vial....

Questioning the Need to Use Botox Within 4 Hours of Reconstitution

Objective To determine whether injection with botulinum toxin type A (Botox; Allergan Inc, Irvine, California) reconstituted with preservative-free saline (0.9% isotonic sodium chloride) after 2-week cold storage in a refrigerator (4°C) or freezer (−20°C) is less efficacious than injection...

jamanetwork.com

There's a bunch of studies that claim it has significantly longer shelf life that advertised, with comparable potency.

Mixing or reconstitution is recommended with Saline, and a bacteriostatic saline for a botox vial intended to be used over several weeks.


Storage in a fridge or freezer seemed to yield similar results for a reconstituted vial.

Frozen versus fresh reconstituted botox for laryngeal dystonia

To compare the efficacy and side effects of frozen versus fresh reconstituted botulinum toxin type A (BTX-A) in the treatment of laryngeal dystonia.Pr…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effect of the Refrigerator Storage Time on the Potency of Botox for Human Extensor Digitorum Brevis Muscle Paralysis

It is recommended that Botox be used within 5 hours of reconstitution, which results in substantial quantities being discarded. This is not only uneconomic, but also inconvenient for treating patients. The aim of this study was to determine the potencies ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[JohnBoy2000]

This channel also has some nice demo videos on injecting safely, correctly, as well as reconstitution etc.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

On botox mode of action also, I'm going on what's outlined on wikipedia

Botulinum toxin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I injected a couple days ago and didn't notice immediate results.

I was concerned that perhaps the product I'd used was of low potency or bunk, however it appears botox mechanism of action is not as straight forward as simply the typical receptor-protein binding we may see in other forms of nerve interventions.

Via the wiki page, it actually gets inside the axon terminal at the motor end plate, and cleaves the proteins responsible for acetylcholine vesicle binding to the cellular membrane.
Through cleaving these proteins it inhibits the vesicle binding and thus no acetylcholine into the synapse to activate the musculature.

I'm assuming this process of SNARE protein cleavage and subsequent downregulation of acetylcholine release explains the timely process for botox to take effect.


In contrast to other nerve implicating agents - by example an opioid, which activates an opioid receptor, nociception downregulation etc, and effects are felt much more rapidly.

At this point approaching 48 hours after injection, I feel a mild inhibition of muscle activity - more effort to fully contract facial muscles, frontalis, procerus and corrugators.
Documentation suggestions up to a week for full effect, apparently botox neutralizes muscle activity completely so I guess I'll see what happens.

**
On a separate note it also mentions on wiki that botox has an additional effect of inhibiting certain nociceptive (pain based) responses, making it useful for treatment of migraine headaches.

Can be used for chronic muscle spasms and dystonia in certain cases where normal neuromuscular responses are inhibited - and scaling back of excessive muscle hypertrophy where overactivation occurs (teeth grinding enlarging masseter muscle giving a moon-face appearance?)

Interdasting applications given it seems to be regarded as the most deadly nerve toxin known to man.

 

[Serotonin101]

It is an interesting compound. We learned in class last week of cases in which people who've suffered TBI may develop permanent plantar flexion which affects gait and quality of life significantly. Botox was used in a study to relax the muscles causing the flexion which restored foot movement to a degree thus improving gait and quality of life.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

It is an interesting compound. We learned in class last week of cases in which people who've suffered TBI may develop permanent plantar flexion which affects gait and quality of life significantly. Botox was used in a study to relax the muscles causing the flexion which restored foot movement to a degree thus improving gait and quality of life.

That is interdasting (what do you study?)

I did a certificate level qualification in physical therapy a couple years ago (basically sports massage + a little extra), and muscle spasming is the primary target of treatment.
To some degree inhibited muscle activation via exercise prescription - but via hands on work, alleviation of spasming is the primary focus.

As a result I try to touch base with spasm based treatments wherever information is available - there's some crazy cases via youtube videos where chronic muscle spasming has dudes in agony and can completely distort their musculoskeletal posture.

Joint mobilization techniques like chiropractors would do is one approach to reinstate alignment, then afterwards treating the dysfunctioned muscle that caused it via hands on work, needles, electrotherapy etc (presumably implicating nerve firing in the latter case).

But for real bad chronic spasming like you mentioned with planter flexion where the neuromuscular system had basically started to go against its own framework (reciprocal inhibition by example), so really far gone cases of spasming - dystonia being another example - to actually effectively kill neuromuscular junction/nerve firing that activates muscle via a polypeptide like botox - it's a novel approach.

I haven't had much experience with treating spasming that severe myself and don't know if botox is officially authorized for use in such cases but, again - one thing that jumps out at me is that - nanograms of botox in a vein is apparently lethal.

I haven't looked far enough into information around the topic to determine exactly how this is negotiated when administering it but, I know with facial muscles Dr's effectively consider it a non-issue - however that works, dilution or something in the case it is actually injected into a blood vessel?
(anecdotal comments on websites suggest for complications via blood vessel injection - doses of above 2500 IU are necessary. Cosmetic doses are typical around 5 IU - so apparently the doses in vials are actually LOWER than nanograms)

 

[Serotonin101]

I'm an exercise science major. We were going over material about the physiology of muscle contractions so of course we touch on ailments and disease that affect it.
Yeah botulism toxin isn't something to be messed it. It's responsible for lots of food poisoning cases annually from infected canned food products (if your can is bulging, throw it out as the bacteria are reproducing inside the can and releasing co2 causing the bulge) so it makes sense how a concentrated dose of the toxin would be lethal. I could only imagine what would happen if systemic effects of the toxin hit major organs.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

I injected 150 units of weak ass Chinese/Alibaba, botox just over two months.

The first injection first weak, second injection second week - they had minor effects.

The injection the third and fourth weeks did squat, which indicates to me the botox went bad despite keeping it in the fridge.

And now at two months, its affect is gone - which blows.
It's affect was weak at the start, rapidly disappated.

So dermics, vianacare - two more reputable suppliers.

Apparently all packs coming through China Korea etc are being held in customs at the moment however.

 

[sekio]

I would not feel comfortable buying botulinum toxin off Alibaba. That just sounds inherently sketchy.

The only advice I can give is, as I understand it, botox is administered with a super ultra fine needle. If you're doing it on your face I would probably get an assistant to help rather than attempt to do it with a mirror.

Me personally, I'm not vain enough to desire Botox therapy. I'm not sure if I can get behind self-Botoxing either, I'm leaning towards "get a professional to do it".

 

[OpiateKiller]

I would not feel comfortable buying botulinum toxin off Alibaba. That just sounds inherently sketchy.

The only advice I can give is, as I understand it, botox is administered with a super ultra fine needle. If you're doing it on your face I would probably get an assistant to help rather than attempt to do it with a mirror.

Me personally, I'm not vain enough to desire Botox therapy. I'm not sure if I can get behind self-Botoxing either, I'm leaning towards "get a professional to do it".

Alibaba with the right sources can be entirely reliable. I've gotten plenty of HGH, HCG, and other substances from them which have proven real with blood tests and results.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Alibaba with the right sources can be entirely reliable. I've gotten plenty of HGH, HCG, and other substances from them which have proven real with blood tests and results.

I've been getting melanotan 2 off alibaba for a couple years now.

It's by far the best quality, far more so than western suppliers.
I believe because it all comes from China, only western suppliers store it in a fridge for 6 months before delivering it, but from Chinese suppliers directly it's fresh.

As to botox - there's only 1 actual alibaba verified suppliers shipping, plenty of non-verified suppliers at lower costs.

I bought from a non-verified source and it was crap.
Go figure.
However, it seems to vary as some report good success.

 

[OpiateKiller]

I've been getting melanotan 2 off alibaba for a couple years now.

It's by far the best quality, far more so than western suppliers.
I believe because it all comes from China, only western suppliers store it in a fridge for 6 months before delivering it, but from Chinese suppliers directly it's fresh.

As to botox - there's only 1 actual alibaba verified suppliers shipping, plenty of non-verified suppliers at lower costs.

I bought from a non-verified source and it was crap.
Go figure.
However, it seems to vary as some report good success.

Yeah I got 5 boxes of HGH off Alibaba, company has 700 5 star reviews. Atleast 200+ on the hGH product with blood test results, etc.

I feel a lot of people judge Chinese products, and I understand, but some of their companies have high quality, best in the world products.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Couple reviews of DIY botox and where it was acquired:



This gal has a facebook page which is a great source of knowledge on all things DIY botox etc





Another reviewer.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Just an update on self treatment with botox.

Outlets I'm familiar with so far seem to primarily ship South Korean product.
Alibaba from China ships that outlined below, but they all seem to come from South Korea anyways, not China - alibaba are just doing middleman work (though you can buy with trade assurance which one can't get from direct suppliers).

Direct south korean suppliers I've found are:
- Dermics
- Vianacare
- Acecosmetica
- Cosmetica sublime

There are a number of different south korean botox manufacturers;

These are some brands (there's a couple more) - and among them they seem to vary in potency.

The primary FDA approved manufacturer is Allergan (US manufactured).

"Filler world UK" does advertise botox and has a 5 star rating on trustpilot, but haven't read much on facebook groups etc about orders from them.

In addition to, their prices are about the same as getting botox done in a local clinic.
Might as well get a Dr to do it for me at those prices.

Point behind researching self admin botox is, at $300 for 3 areas, requiring 3 time a year administration to keep forehead lines at bay - cost saving is the aim.

**
As to south korean brands - I understand the strongest is called "Nabota" - but it was also listed online as being mass recalled in Thailand couple months ago for some reason.

I've tried "Botox" (top left) and "botulax" (bottom right of that picture).

First was very weak.
Botulax, not sure yet - just a few days post injection, but I used the entire vial (100 units) so I don't think it's too strong.