safe recreational drug use: can it be done

[spok]

just thought i'd get this one going to discuss (or speculate on) the immediate and lasting effects of the use of mdma and other active substances you might find in ecstasy these days

a question that i've asked myself is can you safely manage your consumption of substances such as mdma (that's all i'm interested in personally) in a similar way that you can alcohol

the food that we eat, the air that we breathe etc. all contributes to our ultimate demise through physiological degeneration, but it's generally at a rate and to a degree that doesn't warrant abstinence in the same way that ingesting say cyanide would (plus i think you'd have a hard time getting by without breathing )

similar to the effects of alcohol i think anyone using mdma has to accept the fact that there is going to be a degree of damage caused by seretonic neurotoxicity (dopaminergic neurotoxicity it doesn't look so), however can this be regulated so as to avoid serious short and long term effects? that's what i would like to discuss (and anything else relevant that comes up)

if you use mdma in moderation in addition to an otherwise reasonably healthy lifestyle, can you allow sufficient time between rolling to allow adequate regeneration to "safely" enjoy mdma the same way you can alcohol

i wonder in future is it possible that a legalised recreational mdma industry will be held in a similar regard to the current wine industry? there's no shortage of binge drinking "wino's" out there, but still the wine industry is held in a high regard....could a sensible crowd of mdma users bring it into a new regard within society

another point i would like to bring up is dopamine.......i've noticed that a lot of people refer to "low sertonin levels" as being the detrimental consequence of the use of amphetamine like substances, however there's currently a lot of work in progress that suggests a lack of dopamine (which is primarily responsible for that euphoric feeling you get from mdma) is responsible for a lot of problems, and as the two (seretonin and dopamine) actually counterbalance each other in the brain, this is as a consequence of too much seretonin

the current "old school" of thought that uses stimulants to address conditions like depression or anxiety is almost like firefighters using petrol instead of water! a bit counter productive. at the moment there's a few studies just starting to toy with the idea that mdma could have medical applications, and i seriously think it's possible it will be used as the basis of a dopamine medication in future

here's a link to a good article to get you started if you're interested:

http://www.mcmanweb.com/dopamine.html

i could rattle off shite on this subject for a while so rather than do that i'd probably just suggest that people start reading up on the relationship between serotonin and dopamine in the brain, the role dopamine plays in our psychological condition, and draw their own conclusions (then bring it up here )

 

[Sameria]

Well, I didn't read much, but I can tell you this right now.

MDMA does not act primarily on Dopamine. Evidence has suggested SOME activity on the dopamine system, but MUCH less than the Serotonin system. I think perhaps you are confusing MDMA with Methamphetamine, which plays a large part on the dopamine system and much less on the serotonin system.

Mda is proposed to have more action on the dopamine system than MDMA or MDEA

 

[marley]

From wikipedia...
One study on MDMA toxicity, by George A. Ricaurte of Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, which claimed that a single recreational dose of MDMA could cause Parkinson's Disease in later life due to severe dopaminergic stress, was actually retracted by Ricaurte himself after he discovered his lab had administered not MDMA but methamphetamine, which is known to cause dopaminergic changes similar to the serotonergic changes caused by MDMA. Ricaurte blamed this mistake on the chemical supply company that sold the material to his lab. Most studies have found that levels of the dopamine transporter (or other markers of dopamine function) in MDMA users deserve further study or are normal.

 

[Sykik]

safe drug use.

I guess it's like driving it car... it can be safely.... by taking all the procautions, but regardless of how many precautions you take. There is always a risk of chrashing/dieing. By unforseen things such as oil slick on the road etc.

I feel drug use is the same. It is just that us as a community must convince the wider community that we can minimizing the risk enough to make it safe enough for the general idotic public.

 

[spok]

Well, I didn't read much, but I can tell you this right now.

MDMA does not act primarily on Dopamine. Evidence has suggested SOME activity on the dopamine system, but MUCH less than the Serotonin system. I think perhaps you are confusing MDMA with Methamphetamine, which plays a large part on the dopamine system and much less on the serotonin system.

Mda is proposed to have more action on the dopamine system than MDMA or MDEA

i can tell you this right now...i agree

that euphoric feeling you get from mdma is the result of dopamine, enormously magnified by it's interaction with serotonin. i think perhaps you should read a bit more

 

[baysieguy1]

I will throw into the mix, that it is also considered that possibly MDMA also affects Oxytocin release and this could be giving the empathy you get. . .

I do think that recreational use of MDMA can be done, I think that is were I am, I drink a lot more often than I use

 

[the_puppy]

Nothign we do in life is 100% safe. Everything we do has risk.

From dirving our cars, to eating fatty food, nothing we do is 100% free from anything bad happening and being 'safe'.

Its all about taking the appropriate measures to reduce these risks. For example, we wear seatbelts while driving to reduce the chance of injury.

This can be compared to testing your pills and keeping decently hydrated when dancing and rolling.

You will not be 100% safe driving or rolling, but there is little likelihood that you will see hurt or death from doing either sensibly.

 

[Sykik]

Nothign we do in life is 100% safe. Everything we do has risk.

From dirving our cars, to eating fatty food, nothing we do is 100% free from anything bad happening and being 'safe'.

Its all about taking the appropriate measures to reduce these risks. For example, we wear seatbelts while driving to reduce the chance of injury.

This can be compared to testing your pills and keeping decently hydrated when dancing and rolling.

You will not be 100% safe driving or rolling, but there is little likelihood that you will see hurt or death from doing either sensibly.

lol did you read my post? if so.. nice plagerism

 

[the_puppy]

lol did you read my post? if so.. nice plagerism

lol i just read your post now!

I had not read it before i posted. Strong coicidence. but then again, the whole car example is used a fair bit, for example "you are more likely to be killed in a car crash then killed by xyz"

 

[static_mind]

Hey no need to paint xyz as a killer, I don't think hes killed anyone in aggess.

 

[BigTrancer]

The whole point is harm reduction. It's acknowleged that certain activities have risks, so if you can reduce the likelihood of harm resulting from those risks by taking steps to identify substances, moderate intake and promote recovery, then you are on the right path.

BT

 

[spok]

sykik and the puppy,

i hear ya, it's all about probability. i'm familiar with the car analogy also....

the analogy fits in relation to secondary x factors that might be in the pill like pma (which the test kits are a start at addressing) but i'm talking just in relation to pure mdma. there's no x factors there (like another car hitting you by chance / unknowingly ingesting pma), it's just a matter of the actual physiological effects of that substance

i'm answering my own question in a way here but i suppose it all depends on the evidence and what we "know" about mdma, which currently suggests that seretonic neurotoxicity is the only known concern for mdma users. so theoretically if you moderate your dosage and span out the time between rolling you should be able to avoid serious health consequences in the same way you can drinking alcohol (and theoretically could smoking cigarettes if you had one every couple of weeks < arbitrary guess)

with regards to seretonic neurotoxicity too i think alot of people get the idea that it means the actual volume of the liquid hormone seretonin gets low within your brain, and it doesn't....it's gets too high as a result of the stimulant, causing over excitation of the seretonic neurons themselves, causing the actual neurons damage

anyone who's ever been stressed to the shite has experienced the discomfort of an overbalance of the nerotransmitting liquid serotonin, it's widely known as anxiety/fear......also responsible for the "coming down" effect of residual serotonin after using amphetamine type substances

depression is like anxiety except in some people their response to the overbalance of serotonin (which in turn means not enough dopamine in the soup) is to almost psychosomatically convert that excess of serotonin into melatonin, the hormone that puts us to sleep. so instead of being anxious they just feel shitty (and tired, and cold - serotonin plays a role in body temperature, hence the pma connection) as their brain activity is reduced by the lowered presence of serotonin - which basically allows us to think and do stuff to benefit ourselves, which hurts upto the point that we achieve that beneficial outcome. dopamine is almost an inhibitor, it cuts back brain activity but feels good > the reward for doing something we perceive as "good" for us

 

[marklar_the_23rd]

the quote i consume by is "Everything in moderation. Including moderation".

seems to have done me well, even tho i didnt listen to it at the start of my drug taking times.

 

[klinklonfoonyak]

I guess it's like driving it car... it can be safely.... by taking all the procautions, but regardless of how many precautions you take. There is always a risk of chrashing/dieing. By unforseen things such as oil slick on the road etc.
no offense but that is wrong a person can be killed while driving by someone else even if they're taking every precaution they can
if you're really worried about mdmas safety you should either try to obtain molly (mdma crystals) or just stay away as anything can be in ecstasy from mdma to aspirin to caffeine to anything really

 

[madmick19]

problematic drug use including dependance does definatively cause neurological issues which also impact peoples psychosocial life. reflecting on a decade of recreational use i would have to say that there robably have been some lasting affects. As with all substances including medications there is a main affect and side affect. going back to school to study AOD and social work has been a challenge at the begining and now but it got eaiser with practice. which also could point toward the neuroplasticity of the brain and the potential changes across the lifespan.

from my experience seein the medications people are prescribed, i see a lot of focus on presynaptic and post synaptic terminal targeted medications. Like an anti depressant in combination with an anti epileptic drug to assist in stopping high low moods through controlling dopamine and serotonin.

I guesss there is also an underlying assumption that medicine can fix evrything like depression and anxiety- medication definately assists but is not the whole answer; it takes a combination of lifestyle changes, counselling and medication for a good holistic approach. The oldschool thinking youre talking about is interesting and is commonly understood as the self medication hypothesis where people "self medicate to allieveate symptoms".

the jury is still out for the self med theory personally as alot of the time any drug use usually creates more of the problem, rather than less of it. in addition many of the substances people ascribe to 'fixing' the sysmptoms are contraindicated for what there being used for.an example of this is ;alcohol / pot / opiates being used for depression while all of the substnaces are also depressants. holisitc and active participation in youre life would create more long lasting change.

as for your recreational mdma industry well, its an interesting concept. I remember taking mdma a decade ago thinking that t helped me see the world in a differnt way; which it did by producing states where mental and social constructs seemed less important than connection with a fellow PLUR'er. one thing i have come to understand through this is that with practice these states or ways of seeing the world can be normalised within life anyway. Yet again people keep turning back to substances (legal or illegal) as a quick fix or even as the focus of being happy. I think this is a hollow promise that leads either way to more drug use and less active participation in the nuances that make up lifes rich tapestry.

i think the focus should always be on the most least harmful drug use, maintaining a set of practices where if youre going to do drugs do them in a way that is least harmful to youreself

 

[hyroller]

probability, sure... but IMO, it all boils down to maintaining an adequate level of respect for one's physical/neurological wellbeing.

your body is your temple, after all.

 

[dynamo]

Safe drug use CANNOT be done , i dont care what anyone else says , there will and always be that chance/probability where something CAN and Will go wrong wethere you like it or not, albeit a safe dose that is perfect for you but you end up doing something stupid and losing your frame of mind for 1 second and getting someone killed or taking a safe dose and having that 1 in a million adverse reaction reaction and end up in the morgue.

Its simple drugs CAN and HAVE killed, wether it be prescription or illegal.

Answer this one question TRUTHFULLY!!

How many have you have driven under the unfluence of drugs and alcohol KNOWING FULL WELL in your own unhindrerd state of mind....

Yeah drugs are fun

The choice is yours to do it or not to do it,
the only thing is try and take preventative measures to the best of your ability but sometimes even that doesnt work.

On that note and in my mind i believe we should be able to ingest whatever the hell we want so long as it only affects the user and no one else.

We are all responsible for our actions.


But seriously that would only work in a perfect world.

And as sad/hard/shitty as it is to admit there are some things that should reamin the way they are at the moment untill we as a society evolve