Copyright 2000 CNBC, Inc.
CNBC News Transcripts
SHOW: RIVERA LIVE (9:00 PM ET)
July 24, 2000, Monday
LENGTH: 4767 words
HEADLINE: USEFULNESS AND LEGALITY OF ECSTACY
ANCHORS: DAN ABRAMS
BODY:
DAN ABRAMS, host: Rick Doblin, I want to bring you into the conversation. You have studied this drug, and I don't think that you would necessarily agree with Commissioner Kelly's findings.
Mr. RICK DOBLIN (President, MAPS): No, I--I would agree with him that all drugs have risks, and MDMA is like any other drug. There are certain people that are more vulnerable, there are certain risks. But MDMA is extremely useful in a therapeutic way. It's relatively benign. Comparing it to cocaine or heroin is rather ridiculous. The idea of long-term brain damage from MDMA is certainly not a settled question; it's definitely up for debate. The research that's been done is complex. It's hard to interpret.
And even among people who've done it hundreds and hundreds of times, quite frequently, the most that people have been able to say is that maybe it affects memory in a slight way. It doesn't produce memory problems that are problems; that MDMA users are slightly different than the control groups, but still within the normal range, which easily could have been pre-existing or due to other drugs or sleeplessness or staying up all night dancing. So the idea that MDMA produces brain damage totally not clear at all. MDMA has actually always been in the broader community. It's been used for the past 15, 20 years as a drug to help therapy--therapists, psychiatrists; some even still willing to break the law to use it with their patients.
ABRAMS: But, Mi--Michael Nasatir, very quickly, you know, the problem that Commissioner Kelly's talking about is the fact that it's going to lead to violence. He says, 'Tha--that's our concern, is that it's already leading to violence. We're concerned it's going to lead to more. And as a result, we have to deal with it like we deal with other drugs.'
Mr. DOBLIN: It's because it's illegal that it's going to lead to
violence.
Mr. MICHAEL NASATIR (Criminal Defense Attorney): What--what leads to violence is when you make those penalties so stiff that the only people that will get involved in the trade are not the little entrepreneurs of high school kids, but the real tough, rough, organized crime, the only ones who are willing to take those kind of chances. It we have a--we have a challenge with MDMA. There's no question about it. But let's meet it with drug education and treatment, something that works, not these harsh penalties. Does it work with heroin. No. Does it work with cocaine? No.
ABRAMS: You know, I know that Nancy Grace is not going to agree with you. When we come back from this break, we'll ask Nancy. Come ba...
(Announcements)
Unidentified Man: When you're rolling, you don't want to hurt anyone, and you don't want anyone to be hurt. So you would never do anything on purpose to see someone get some bad stuff or get hurt or anything like that.
ABRAMS: That's someone at a dance club talking about the drug ecstacy. And the question we're dealing with is: What should be the punishment for ecstacy? Should we treat ecstacy like cocaine and heroin or methamphetamines, like other drugs, or should ecstacy be considered different? Should they avoid stiffening the penalties because ecstacy isn't causing the same sort of havoc that some of these other drugs wreaked on our society?
To talk about this, we've got an exceptional panel tonight. In Manhattan, our old friend Nancy Grace, the Court TV anchor and former prosecutor. Also in Manhattan, journalist Ethan Brown, who wrote last week's cover story in New York Magazine about ecstacy. Ethan, I enjoyed your article very much. Actually read it before...
Mr. ETHAN BROWN (New York Magazine): Thank you.
ABRAMS: ...I knew we were going to do this topic.
Moving up the East Coast, in Boston, Rick Doblin, founder and president of MAPS; that's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. He has a PhD from Harvard and believes ecstacy has proven medical benefits.
Heading west, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sue Stevens, who took ecstacy, along with her fiance, Shane, to help deal with the emotional pain of his terminal bout with cancer. Shane died last October.
And last but not least, in Los Angeles, our old friend Michael Nasatir, the ace criminal defense attorney who has handled many drug cases, including those of actors Robert Downey and Christian Slater.
Ethan, before I go back to Nancy Grace to give her a chance to respond on some of the legal issues, I wanted to ask you about what you found. I mean, how--how big a deal is this out there, and is it having the sort of negative effect that Raymond Kelly was talking about?
Mr. BROWN: Well, I--I found that the drug really is defying the label 'club drug'; that it's available everywhere from suburbs to Wall Street to high schools. It cuts across all racial and demographic lines. We also found, really, that it did have some negative effect, surprisingly. I talked to kids who are in rehab who had problems with ecstacy, which I--I don't think we've seen until--until now.
ABRAMS: So it was--you did find that there was some addiction problem?
Mr. BROWN: The--the jury is still out on ecstacy's addictiveness. We believe now that it's physically non-addictive, but at a rehab center that I visited about a year ago, only 30 percent of the kids admitted had used ecstacy. Now it had jumped up to 80 percent. So y--you are seeing it in that population now, which is a big change.
ABRAMS: Do you have to try it as part of your research?
Mr. BROWN: No, didn't have to try it.
Ms. NANCY GRACE (Anchor, Court TV): Take the Fifth. Take the Fifth.
ABRAMS: OK. All right, all right, all right. Just mak--just making sure. And you wouldn't be able to admit that anyway. Good answer. Good answer, Ethan.
Nancy Grace, we were talking before about some of the legal issues surrounding this, and we heard a couple people saying that, you know, this is different. The reason that there's crime associated with drugs like ecstacy is because we make them illegal, and so we shouldn't stiffen the penalties.
Ms. GRACE: They say it's different, Dan, because they want it legalized. Of course, it's different to them. But, Dan, I can't believe you're even considering legalizing a drug where, up front, you're already talking about giving drug education and rehab to people that use it. And to say, 'Well, the jury's still out on brain damage, so let's not include that,' are you
kidding? That you would legalize something...
ABRAMS: Well, let's not talk about legalizing it, though.
Ms. GRACE: ...where--where where brain damage is a possibility?
ABRAMS: All right. Let's--let's--let's not talk about legalizing it, though. Let's talk about whether we should be stiffening the penalties.
Ms. GRACE: OK. I'll be glad to talk about that. And I--I read Ethan's article and, in fact, the studies show that in one particular location on Long Island, 85 percent of the teens admitted that they had been using ecstacy. I thought his article was incredible. But as far as bringing up the penalties, we're not talking about penalties for casual users or users. We're talking about stiffening penalties for distributors. Israeli and mush--Russian
mobs are now getting a piece of the ecstacy action here in the US, and I think those penalties need to be upped.
ABRAMS: So do...
Ms. GRACE: And I hope Congress is listening.
ABRAMS: Do--do we make--do we make them equivalent to cocaine and heroin?
Ms. GRACE: I think they should be equivalent to methamphetamines. Reason: Because unlike crack cocaine--and you know very well, Dan, I've prosecuted hundreds, literally thousands of crack cocaine cases--violence is not associated with ecstacy. But find one of these guys on this panel tonight that wants to give ecstacy to their 12-year-old daughter, and then we'll talk about legalization.
ABRAMS: Yeah. I think, Michael, rather than ask you whether you were going to give ecstacy to your 12-year-old daughter, I think I might--might know the answer to that one. But--well, you se--you're--you're not giving me...
Mr. NASATIR: Well, that--that...
ABRAMS: You're not giving me the face I expected. So go ahead, I'm going to ask you it then.
Mr. NASATIR: You know, you--I--I'm--I'm giving you the face 'cause I'm laughing inside. Of course I'm not going to give it to my 12-year-old.
ABRAMS: OK.
Mr. NASATIR: I'm going to talk to her. I'm going to tell her that there might be dra--brain damage. I'm going to educate her and her friends and make sure...
Ms. GRACE: And I'm going to prosecute the guy...
Mr. NASATIR: ...that I know exactly what they're doing.
Ms. GRACE: ...that sells it to her on the playground.
Mr. NASATIR: And--and--and, you know, when--when Commissioner Kelly says we're just concentrating on the big guys, you know, that's what they said with cero--heroin, cocaine and methamphetamine. And what you have in prison, along with the big guys, is a lot of little guys, who are selling a lot of little stuff to support their own habit or just to be...
Ms. GRACE: Oh, did I hear you say selling? Selling is not simple and casual use.
Mr. NASATIR: You know...
Ms. GRACE: Selling is a major felony.
Mr. NASATIR: And--and when they say selling, what they do is they get the dolphins in with the tuna, and they get one kid selling to another, and they put them in jail for a long time. And they're filling their pris--our prisons up with drug users.
ABRAMS: Gotta take a break.
Mr. NASATIR: We've got to set some priorities.
ABRAMS: Gotta take a break. We'll be back in a moment, talk more about the dolphins, the tuna and ecstacy.
(Announcements)
ABRAMS: I want to go to Sue Stevens in Michigan, whose husband, Shane, had been taking MDMA, otherwise known as ecstacy, along with yourself. And I'm--by the way, I'm very sorry to hear about your husband's death in October from cancer. What did the taking of ecstacy do for the two of you, as he was suffering through that very difficult period?
Ms. SUE STEVENS (Ecstacy User): Well, I need to point out that he wasn't taking it regularly. We did three or four therapeutical sessions together.
ABRAMS: And how did--and tell me why you did it and what it did for you.
Ms. STEVENS: Well, to start it off, the cancer created quite a big problem between us. We couldn't talk about it, and in turn, we were going at each other's throats fighting constantly, pretty much just trying to push each other away. And a friend who is tied up with MAPS, he told us about the research that was going on and suggested that we start reading about it, and maybe it might help us. So we did a good six months' worth of research before we did our first session, and it allowed us to open up about the cancer and talk to each other very openly and honestly for about six hours, and we resolved pretty much every issue that we had.
ABRAMS: Did it...
Ms. STEVENS: And after that first session, we never had problems with fighting, and we became allies with the cancer.
ABRAMS: Did it alleviate any of his pain at that time?
Ms. STEVENS: At that time, he wasn't in any physical pain.
ABRAMS: Right. So...
Ms. STEVENS: It was all the emotional that we needed to address.
ABRAMS: And what--what--what led you to--I mean, you said you did research on it for six months. What led you to start researching it in the first place? You went to this organization. Did anyone say to you, 'Hey, this is the drug that is going to be able to do' what? I mean, what was the selling point of the drug?
Ms. STEVENS: Actually, MAPS wasn't the people that suggested it to us. A friend of mine, who knows Rick Doblin quite well, he told us of the research that's going on, you know, with the MDMA and terminal patients and just suggested that we read about it, and there was a possibility that if we used it as a tool, it might help us overcome all the emotional problems we were having.
ABRAMS: Rick, let me ask you, any reservations about encouraging people--and, I don't know, is your organization encouraging people to use MDMA?
Ms. STEVENS: No.
Mr. DOBLIN: Well, we feel that we shouldn't make decisions for anybody else. We should provide accurate, honest information about risks and benefits, and...
ABRAMS: But it's an illegal drug.
Mr. DOBLIN: Yeah, that's probably the biggest concern that people should have if they're thinking about whether to take it. I think concerns about brain damage are way out of place. For therapeutic use, for occasional use, for moderate use, it's not an issue at all. I think that we already have a drug that's--causes brain damage. It's called alcohol. We do have it legal. We don't decide that it's better. We are concerned that people have the accurate, honest information to make the choices about their own lives that our current system prevents them from doing.
ABRAMS: Sue, were you concerned about taking an illegal drug?
Ms. STEVENS: Concerned because of the legalities of it?
ABRAMS: Yeah. Yeah.
Ms. STEVENS: Not really. The benefits that we could potentially get outweighed the penalties.
ABRAMS: And I think the penalties are going to be a--a big issue that we're going...
Ms. STEVENS: Right.
ABRAMS: ...to continue talking about here, and we are going to continue this after a quick break. The issue we're going to talk about, topic of our show, The Agony of Ecstacy. When we come back, we'll talk again about whether the punishment should be stiffened. Is ecstacy just like cocaine and heroin, and should it be treated that way by the law? We'll talk about that in a moment.
(Announcements)
ABRAMS: Rick Doblin, you've been talking about the fact that ecstasy should be legal for adults. The problem is that what we see is a lot of kids using the drug, and it's a big hit in high schools, in colleges around the country. And I think some people are going to say, 'Here's this guy who's telling us we should make this drug legal, and yet the people that I see who are using this are almost all young people.'
Mr. DOBLIN: Well, that's true. I should say that most of my work is focused on the medical use, and making it legal in the context of prescription use, of psychiatrists, psychotherapists helping people through emotional issues and having it legal in that way. But I would say, though, in our society with drugs, we should treat adults like adults and let them make their own decisions. And the decision about whether children use drugs should be left in the
hands of the family. We don't need the government criminalizing it. We should let parents try to educate their children in the ways that they see fit. So that if high school students or college students want to use this drug, they should work with their families and see if they can get permission that way. That, I think, is a much better way than saying that all adults can use it, all children cannot.
ABRAMS: But, see--but here's the problem. I think we're saying that the jury is still out on the long-term effects of ecstasy, and yet, why not wait till the jury comes in and then say, 'OK. Like other drugs, we're going to test it out. We're going to determine if it does have these long-term effects.' It sounds like what you're saying is, 'Let's make it legal. Let's leave it legal...'
Ms. GRACE: How can they do that?
ABRAMS: '...until we determine that it is terrible.'
Mr. DOBLIN: Well, don't you think that would be better than making a whole complex of people put in jail, a whole criminal--we add violence to our culture to put things--put people in jail if we don't even know it's dangerous? But ecstacy--MDMA has been around for 20, 25 years. A more neurotoxic drug, MDA, was very popular in the '60s.
Ms. GRACE: Right. And did you see that footage?
Mr. DOBLIN: And it doesn't cause these problems.
Ms. GRACE: Did you see that footage...
Mr. DOBLIN: People are not showing up.
Ms. GRACE: ...of that young lady being wheeled into an ambulance after she had ecstacy?
Mr. DOBLIN: Because of the laws, we don't even...
Ms. GRACE: That doesn't bother you a little bit?
Mr. DOBLIN: It bothers me terribly. I'm a parent. I have three kids. We don't even know what that girl did. She could have done an adulterated drug.
Ms. GRACE: She took ecstacy.
Mr. DOBLIN: We don't know that at all.
Ms. GRACE: That's what she did.
Mr. DOBLIN: No, we don't know that for sure.
Ms. GRACE: That's why they took her picture. Come on. You know what?
Mr. DOBLIN: I'm saying that there are a lot of adulterated drugs...
Ms. GRACE: I understand where you're headed about making this...
Mr. DOBLIN: Just because drugs have risks is not a reason to criminalize them.
Ms. GRACE: You don't even know what...
Mr. DOBLIN: Everything has risks.
Ms. GRACE: ...the risks are, Rick.
Mr. DOBLIN: I know more than you.
Ms. GRACE: And if you look at this...
Mr. DOBLIN: I've researched it for a long time. I've funded research in animals, in humans.
Ms. GRACE: Sir, if you look at this article that Ethan wrote--you say it's such casual use. There are people that take 20 and 30 of these pills a day...
Mr. DOBLIN: And I don't...
Unidentified Panelist: You know...
Ms. GRACE: ...and that's what you want legalized?
Mr. DOBLIN: I don't think there's a single person...
Unidentified Panelist: ...if you--if you...
Mr. DOBLIN: ...that takes 30 of these a day.
ABRAMS: All right. Ethan, is there a single person out there? I mean, i--and let's not even ask a single person.
Mr. DOBLIN: Thirty a day?
ABRAMS: Let's talk about sort of--generally, are there people out there who really are taking 20?
Mr. DOBLIN: There are.
Mr. BROWN: There are people who abuse the drug. But again I think to classify it as an addictive drug might be a mistake. I think...
Ms. GRACE: Well, why do you take--think they're taking 30 pills a day if it's not addictive?
Mr. DOBLIN: Because some people abuse, Nancy.
Mr. BROWN: I--I think for--for the--for the very--for the very same reason that someone might, you know, drink too much or smoke too much. It's--it's the same sort of thing.
Ms. GRACE: Yeah, it's called addiction.
Mr. DOBLIN: It's called abuse.
Ms. GRACE: Alcohol and nicotine...
Mr. BROWN: Right.
Ms. GRACE: ...are addictive...
Mr. BROWN: Right.
Ms. GRACE: ...and that's why they do it. And I'm not saying it should be outlawed simply because it's addictive, but when you've got brain damage as a possibility--and I know this gives you a feeling of euphoria, but along with that Saturday night high is what is known as the Tuesday killer, where you want to have suicide feelings after you take ecstasy over the weekend. Now you people might think it's OK to legalize that, but I don't want it out in the playgrounds with my little nieces and nephews.
ABRAMS: Sue Stevens, did you have any of that when you took the drug? I mean, we're all here talking, and you're the one--at least the only who's admitting that you have--have actually tried the drug. Was there anything where a few days after you took it you felt depressed?
Ms. STEVENS: No. Actually, a few days afterwards, we felt absolutely wonderful because we had incorporated everything that we learned that night into, you know, the next weeks, months.
ABRAMS: And, Nancy...
Ms. STEVENS: And we never had a problem with any side effects.
ABRAMS: ...an--and, Nancy, I think that the point that a lot of the guests are making--Michael Nasatir, some of the others--is, you know, we're talking about criminalizing this drug, we're talking about making these sentences stiffer, but that's what leads to the violence. The violence comes from the fact that they're fighting over their turf for the drug. It's a good
point, isn't it?
Ms. GRACE: I know. That's--that's a very common point that is made by people...
ABRAMS: And a good one, no?
Ms. GRACE: ...that want to legalize--no, I'm not persuaded by that at all. Now when it comes to Miss Stevens who we just heard from, you can even tell by her--her manner on television tonight, she had a controlled use of this. She said she used it two or three times...
ABRAMS: But...
Ms. GRACE: ...under a doctor's care with her husband. She is not l...
Ms. STEVENS: That was not doctor's care.
Ms. GRACE: Not a doctor's care.
Ms. STEVENS: No, we did this in an unsanctioned setting. We learned all that we could possibly learn about it, but because of the fact that it's illegal, we can't do it under a doctor's care.
Ms. GRACE: Right. I understand.
Ms. STEVENS: So we had to break the law to get the help that we needed.
Ms. GRACE: But it seems to me that her use of this in fighting an illness--a psychological problem they were having fighting cancer, it's a lot different than people popping 20 and 30 pills at a time.
ABRAMS: But, Nancy, if you're saying that, then aren't you saying that there are ways and times when ecstasy should be legal with a prescription...
Ms. GRACE: No, that's not what I'm saying.
ABRAMS: ...and not to create these stiff punishments...
Ms. GRACE: No.
ABRAMS: ...that are going to lead to high school...
Ms. GRACE: That's not what I'm saying.
ABRAMS: ...and college kids going to jail for a really long time?
Ms. GRACE: No, that's not what I'm saying. She used it simply as a user. The stiff penalties that are up for discussion tomorrow in Congress deal with distributors, people like the Israeli and the Russian mobs who are distributing these pills to people on high school grounds and elementary school playgrounds, Dan. That's the big difference.
ABRAMS: But...
Mr. NASATIR: And the--and--and the person that distributed it to Sue and her husband would be in jail right with them, Nancy, and you know it and I know it. And there's no reason to do it. We need to set priorities. We've got violence problems here in America. That's the people who should be put in jail, not our kids who are selling these small amounts to each other, and this is an illegal drug already. We're not talking about legalizing it.
Ms. GRACE: Well, if you are so sure...
Mr. NASATIR: We're talking about not putting in jail...
Ms. GRACE: ...that this...
Mr. NASATIR: ...people for 8 and 10 years like Commissioner Kelly wants us to.
Ms. GRACE: Why isn't the medical community supporting you? Why hasn't the AMA come out and said, 'Yes, we want ecstacy...'
Mr. NASATIR: Because...
Ms. GRACE: '...used for medicinal purposes'?
Unidentified Panelist: Look, you know actually why?
Mr. NASATIR: ...because--because the political popular...
Ms. GRACE: They haven't. They've rejected this.
Mr. NASATIR: ...thing, Nancy, is to say what you say and talk about giving it to your...
Ms. GRACE: No, I disagree. I disagree.
Mr. NASATIR: ...12-year-old daughter, and my 12-year-old daughter. I'd like to teach her to say no when somebody offers her--her--her eco--ecstacy...
Ms. GRACE: Well, I admire you for that.
Mr. NASATIR: ...an--and--because that's the way to solve the problem.
Ms. GRACE: But when you keep talking about this...
Mr. DOBLIN: N--Nancy...
Ms. GRACE: ...as medicine, the medical community disagrees and rejects your theory.
Mr. DOBLIN: ...no, that's not true. That is absolutely not true. The problem with criminalizing drugs is that it's almost impossible to get permission to do research into their medical benefits. We've seen it with marijuana. It's the case with MDMA. We have tried since 1985, when MDMA was made illegal, to get permission to do a study with MDMA and cancer patients. We have not been able to get permission. We've had to go to Spain to do a study now with women survivors of rape who have post-traumatic stress to see how we can use it in the therapeutic context with them. But it's very difficult to get doctors to even be willing to put their careers on the line to try and do research. It's very dif...
Ms. GRACE: And what were the findings in Spain?
Mr. DOBLIN: We're just starting the study next month, but there's an...
Ms. GRACE: So you have no concrete evidence, and you want to legalize this.
Mr. DOBLIN: We have thousands of anecdotal reports...
Ms. GRACE: Anecdotal.
Mr. DOBLIN: ...which are dismissed because we cannot get permission.
ABRAMS: And...
Ms. GRACE: You tell that lady...
Mr. DOBLIN: We've not been able to get permission to do the research.
ABRAMS: ...and...
Ms. GRACE: ...that I just saw being wheeled on to an ambulance...
Mr. DOBLIN: That's what our struggle is about.
ABRAMS: All right. Ethan Brown, you were t--you--in your article you talk about fakes, that there is one problem out there with, you know, the drug appearing to be ecstacy, but it turns out it's not and that that may have been the cause of a lot of the deaths.
Mr. BROWN: Right.
ABRAMS: And that would seem to support the argument that we should legalize ecstacy.
Mr. BROWN: Well, there--you know, the--the enormous black market in ecstacy right now has created a huge number of fakes. You're seeing everything from antihistamine to insecticide, from h--heroin, cocaine, speed. People will sell anything right now as ecstacy because the--the profit margin to do so is so high.
ABRAMS: Yeah, what is it? Give--give me a sense of what it costs them to make it, to the distributor, to the person who buys it on the street.
Mr. BROWN: I understand at the dis--you know, at the manufacturing level, it's as little as 5 cents. At the distributor level, they can sell it to dealers from $ 5 to $ 8. That dealer then sells it on to the customer for anywhere from $ 25 to $ 40. So you're seeing significant markups along each sort of--part of the--of the distribution chain.
ABRAMS: And, Nancy, isn't that the problem? I mean, I heard Commissioner Kelly talking about the profit margins. Isn't that what is sort of driving people nuts, is the fact that they can make such a profit off of it and not actually...
Ms. GRACE: No.
ABRAMS: ...the medical effects of the drug?
Ms. GRACE: That may--that may very well be what's bugging some people, but that's not what's bugging me. Another issue we haven't even touched on is this. Ecstasy is well known as a sex drug. It makes you want to have sex.
Mr. DOBLIN: No.
Ms. GRACE: In the age of the AIDS...
Mr. DOBLIN: That's not accurate.
Ms. GRACE: Well, you know, take a look at Ethan's article.
Mr. DOBLIN: It promotes communication. It promotes communication.
Ms. GRACE: Well, you call it whatever you want to, OK? But with the AIDS virus rampant--and you want to l--legalize a sex drug--I think it's incredibly irresponsible.
ABRAMS: Go ahead, Rick.
Mr. NASATIR: The only--the only reason anybody wants to legalize it is so it can be controlled, so these people can't--can't be...
Ms. GRACE: It can't be controlled.
Mr. NASATIR: ...passing off something that--that's more dangerous than ecstacy really is. The second thing is--look, as long as there's demand, there's going to be people doing it who want to do it. What you want to do is talk to the young people...
Ms. GRACE: That doesn't make it OK.
Mr. NASATIR: ...and get them to agree with your point of view.
Ms. GRACE: That doesn't make it OK just because people want to do it.
Mr. NASATIR: Don't put more people in jail. It doesn't do any good, Nancy.
Ms. GRACE: Just because people want...
Mr. NASATIR: It doesn't meet the challenge.
Ms. GRACE: ...to commit murder or use cocaine...
Mr. NASATIR: It--it doesn't meet the challenge.
Ms. GRACE: ...you should legalize it?
Mr. NASATIR: Don't--legalize it if you want to control it so that it--no, none of those fakes come.
Ms. GRACE: Well, as of tonight, the rest of America doesn't agree with you.
Mr. NASATIR: And, Nancy, you talk about the gurney. You take 30 aspirins, you're going to be on the same gurney. Don't abuse. Don't...
ABRAMS: We're going to take a break. I want to thank Ethan Brown, Sue Stevens, and Rick Doblin. When we come back, we're going to talk about Internet snooping, a new FBI program which can look into your e-mails. And then we're going to talk about a get-tough sheriff who says that he thinks everyone should be able to see his criminals at work. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a minute.
(Announcements)
------------------
MDMA use was strongly and significantly associated with a history of recent unprotected anal intercourse. [Klitzman RL et al, Am J Psychiatry 2000 Jul 01;157(7):1162-1164]
CNBC News Transcripts
SHOW: RIVERA LIVE (9:00 PM ET)
July 24, 2000, Monday
LENGTH: 4767 words
HEADLINE: USEFULNESS AND LEGALITY OF ECSTACY
ANCHORS: DAN ABRAMS
BODY:
DAN ABRAMS, host: Rick Doblin, I want to bring you into the conversation. You have studied this drug, and I don't think that you would necessarily agree with Commissioner Kelly's findings.
Mr. RICK DOBLIN (President, MAPS): No, I--I would agree with him that all drugs have risks, and MDMA is like any other drug. There are certain people that are more vulnerable, there are certain risks. But MDMA is extremely useful in a therapeutic way. It's relatively benign. Comparing it to cocaine or heroin is rather ridiculous. The idea of long-term brain damage from MDMA is certainly not a settled question; it's definitely up for debate. The research that's been done is complex. It's hard to interpret.
And even among people who've done it hundreds and hundreds of times, quite frequently, the most that people have been able to say is that maybe it affects memory in a slight way. It doesn't produce memory problems that are problems; that MDMA users are slightly different than the control groups, but still within the normal range, which easily could have been pre-existing or due to other drugs or sleeplessness or staying up all night dancing. So the idea that MDMA produces brain damage totally not clear at all. MDMA has actually always been in the broader community. It's been used for the past 15, 20 years as a drug to help therapy--therapists, psychiatrists; some even still willing to break the law to use it with their patients.
ABRAMS: But, Mi--Michael Nasatir, very quickly, you know, the problem that Commissioner Kelly's talking about is the fact that it's going to lead to violence. He says, 'Tha--that's our concern, is that it's already leading to violence. We're concerned it's going to lead to more. And as a result, we have to deal with it like we deal with other drugs.'
Mr. DOBLIN: It's because it's illegal that it's going to lead to
violence.
Mr. MICHAEL NASATIR (Criminal Defense Attorney): What--what leads to violence is when you make those penalties so stiff that the only people that will get involved in the trade are not the little entrepreneurs of high school kids, but the real tough, rough, organized crime, the only ones who are willing to take those kind of chances. It we have a--we have a challenge with MDMA. There's no question about it. But let's meet it with drug education and treatment, something that works, not these harsh penalties. Does it work with heroin. No. Does it work with cocaine? No.
ABRAMS: You know, I know that Nancy Grace is not going to agree with you. When we come back from this break, we'll ask Nancy. Come ba...
(Announcements)
Unidentified Man: When you're rolling, you don't want to hurt anyone, and you don't want anyone to be hurt. So you would never do anything on purpose to see someone get some bad stuff or get hurt or anything like that.
ABRAMS: That's someone at a dance club talking about the drug ecstacy. And the question we're dealing with is: What should be the punishment for ecstacy? Should we treat ecstacy like cocaine and heroin or methamphetamines, like other drugs, or should ecstacy be considered different? Should they avoid stiffening the penalties because ecstacy isn't causing the same sort of havoc that some of these other drugs wreaked on our society?
To talk about this, we've got an exceptional panel tonight. In Manhattan, our old friend Nancy Grace, the Court TV anchor and former prosecutor. Also in Manhattan, journalist Ethan Brown, who wrote last week's cover story in New York Magazine about ecstacy. Ethan, I enjoyed your article very much. Actually read it before...
Mr. ETHAN BROWN (New York Magazine): Thank you.
ABRAMS: ...I knew we were going to do this topic.
Moving up the East Coast, in Boston, Rick Doblin, founder and president of MAPS; that's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. He has a PhD from Harvard and believes ecstacy has proven medical benefits.
Heading west, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sue Stevens, who took ecstacy, along with her fiance, Shane, to help deal with the emotional pain of his terminal bout with cancer. Shane died last October.
And last but not least, in Los Angeles, our old friend Michael Nasatir, the ace criminal defense attorney who has handled many drug cases, including those of actors Robert Downey and Christian Slater.
Ethan, before I go back to Nancy Grace to give her a chance to respond on some of the legal issues, I wanted to ask you about what you found. I mean, how--how big a deal is this out there, and is it having the sort of negative effect that Raymond Kelly was talking about?
Mr. BROWN: Well, I--I found that the drug really is defying the label 'club drug'; that it's available everywhere from suburbs to Wall Street to high schools. It cuts across all racial and demographic lines. We also found, really, that it did have some negative effect, surprisingly. I talked to kids who are in rehab who had problems with ecstacy, which I--I don't think we've seen until--until now.
ABRAMS: So it was--you did find that there was some addiction problem?
Mr. BROWN: The--the jury is still out on ecstacy's addictiveness. We believe now that it's physically non-addictive, but at a rehab center that I visited about a year ago, only 30 percent of the kids admitted had used ecstacy. Now it had jumped up to 80 percent. So y--you are seeing it in that population now, which is a big change.
ABRAMS: Do you have to try it as part of your research?
Mr. BROWN: No, didn't have to try it.
Ms. NANCY GRACE (Anchor, Court TV): Take the Fifth. Take the Fifth.
ABRAMS: OK. All right, all right, all right. Just mak--just making sure. And you wouldn't be able to admit that anyway. Good answer. Good answer, Ethan.
Nancy Grace, we were talking before about some of the legal issues surrounding this, and we heard a couple people saying that, you know, this is different. The reason that there's crime associated with drugs like ecstacy is because we make them illegal, and so we shouldn't stiffen the penalties.
Ms. GRACE: They say it's different, Dan, because they want it legalized. Of course, it's different to them. But, Dan, I can't believe you're even considering legalizing a drug where, up front, you're already talking about giving drug education and rehab to people that use it. And to say, 'Well, the jury's still out on brain damage, so let's not include that,' are you
kidding? That you would legalize something...
ABRAMS: Well, let's not talk about legalizing it, though.
Ms. GRACE: ...where--where where brain damage is a possibility?
ABRAMS: All right. Let's--let's--let's not talk about legalizing it, though. Let's talk about whether we should be stiffening the penalties.
Ms. GRACE: OK. I'll be glad to talk about that. And I--I read Ethan's article and, in fact, the studies show that in one particular location on Long Island, 85 percent of the teens admitted that they had been using ecstacy. I thought his article was incredible. But as far as bringing up the penalties, we're not talking about penalties for casual users or users. We're talking about stiffening penalties for distributors. Israeli and mush--Russian
mobs are now getting a piece of the ecstacy action here in the US, and I think those penalties need to be upped.
ABRAMS: So do...
Ms. GRACE: And I hope Congress is listening.
ABRAMS: Do--do we make--do we make them equivalent to cocaine and heroin?
Ms. GRACE: I think they should be equivalent to methamphetamines. Reason: Because unlike crack cocaine--and you know very well, Dan, I've prosecuted hundreds, literally thousands of crack cocaine cases--violence is not associated with ecstacy. But find one of these guys on this panel tonight that wants to give ecstacy to their 12-year-old daughter, and then we'll talk about legalization.
ABRAMS: Yeah. I think, Michael, rather than ask you whether you were going to give ecstacy to your 12-year-old daughter, I think I might--might know the answer to that one. But--well, you se--you're--you're not giving me...
Mr. NASATIR: Well, that--that...
ABRAMS: You're not giving me the face I expected. So go ahead, I'm going to ask you it then.
Mr. NASATIR: You know, you--I--I'm--I'm giving you the face 'cause I'm laughing inside. Of course I'm not going to give it to my 12-year-old.
ABRAMS: OK.
Mr. NASATIR: I'm going to talk to her. I'm going to tell her that there might be dra--brain damage. I'm going to educate her and her friends and make sure...
Ms. GRACE: And I'm going to prosecute the guy...
Mr. NASATIR: ...that I know exactly what they're doing.
Ms. GRACE: ...that sells it to her on the playground.
Mr. NASATIR: And--and--and, you know, when--when Commissioner Kelly says we're just concentrating on the big guys, you know, that's what they said with cero--heroin, cocaine and methamphetamine. And what you have in prison, along with the big guys, is a lot of little guys, who are selling a lot of little stuff to support their own habit or just to be...
Ms. GRACE: Oh, did I hear you say selling? Selling is not simple and casual use.
Mr. NASATIR: You know...
Ms. GRACE: Selling is a major felony.
Mr. NASATIR: And--and when they say selling, what they do is they get the dolphins in with the tuna, and they get one kid selling to another, and they put them in jail for a long time. And they're filling their pris--our prisons up with drug users.
ABRAMS: Gotta take a break.
Mr. NASATIR: We've got to set some priorities.
ABRAMS: Gotta take a break. We'll be back in a moment, talk more about the dolphins, the tuna and ecstacy.
(Announcements)
ABRAMS: I want to go to Sue Stevens in Michigan, whose husband, Shane, had been taking MDMA, otherwise known as ecstacy, along with yourself. And I'm--by the way, I'm very sorry to hear about your husband's death in October from cancer. What did the taking of ecstacy do for the two of you, as he was suffering through that very difficult period?
Ms. SUE STEVENS (Ecstacy User): Well, I need to point out that he wasn't taking it regularly. We did three or four therapeutical sessions together.
ABRAMS: And how did--and tell me why you did it and what it did for you.
Ms. STEVENS: Well, to start it off, the cancer created quite a big problem between us. We couldn't talk about it, and in turn, we were going at each other's throats fighting constantly, pretty much just trying to push each other away. And a friend who is tied up with MAPS, he told us about the research that was going on and suggested that we start reading about it, and maybe it might help us. So we did a good six months' worth of research before we did our first session, and it allowed us to open up about the cancer and talk to each other very openly and honestly for about six hours, and we resolved pretty much every issue that we had.
ABRAMS: Did it...
Ms. STEVENS: And after that first session, we never had problems with fighting, and we became allies with the cancer.
ABRAMS: Did it alleviate any of his pain at that time?
Ms. STEVENS: At that time, he wasn't in any physical pain.
ABRAMS: Right. So...
Ms. STEVENS: It was all the emotional that we needed to address.
ABRAMS: And what--what--what led you to--I mean, you said you did research on it for six months. What led you to start researching it in the first place? You went to this organization. Did anyone say to you, 'Hey, this is the drug that is going to be able to do' what? I mean, what was the selling point of the drug?
Ms. STEVENS: Actually, MAPS wasn't the people that suggested it to us. A friend of mine, who knows Rick Doblin quite well, he told us of the research that's going on, you know, with the MDMA and terminal patients and just suggested that we read about it, and there was a possibility that if we used it as a tool, it might help us overcome all the emotional problems we were having.
ABRAMS: Rick, let me ask you, any reservations about encouraging people--and, I don't know, is your organization encouraging people to use MDMA?
Ms. STEVENS: No.
Mr. DOBLIN: Well, we feel that we shouldn't make decisions for anybody else. We should provide accurate, honest information about risks and benefits, and...
ABRAMS: But it's an illegal drug.
Mr. DOBLIN: Yeah, that's probably the biggest concern that people should have if they're thinking about whether to take it. I think concerns about brain damage are way out of place. For therapeutic use, for occasional use, for moderate use, it's not an issue at all. I think that we already have a drug that's--causes brain damage. It's called alcohol. We do have it legal. We don't decide that it's better. We are concerned that people have the accurate, honest information to make the choices about their own lives that our current system prevents them from doing.
ABRAMS: Sue, were you concerned about taking an illegal drug?
Ms. STEVENS: Concerned because of the legalities of it?
ABRAMS: Yeah. Yeah.
Ms. STEVENS: Not really. The benefits that we could potentially get outweighed the penalties.
ABRAMS: And I think the penalties are going to be a--a big issue that we're going...
Ms. STEVENS: Right.
ABRAMS: ...to continue talking about here, and we are going to continue this after a quick break. The issue we're going to talk about, topic of our show, The Agony of Ecstacy. When we come back, we'll talk again about whether the punishment should be stiffened. Is ecstacy just like cocaine and heroin, and should it be treated that way by the law? We'll talk about that in a moment.
(Announcements)
ABRAMS: Rick Doblin, you've been talking about the fact that ecstasy should be legal for adults. The problem is that what we see is a lot of kids using the drug, and it's a big hit in high schools, in colleges around the country. And I think some people are going to say, 'Here's this guy who's telling us we should make this drug legal, and yet the people that I see who are using this are almost all young people.'
Mr. DOBLIN: Well, that's true. I should say that most of my work is focused on the medical use, and making it legal in the context of prescription use, of psychiatrists, psychotherapists helping people through emotional issues and having it legal in that way. But I would say, though, in our society with drugs, we should treat adults like adults and let them make their own decisions. And the decision about whether children use drugs should be left in the
hands of the family. We don't need the government criminalizing it. We should let parents try to educate their children in the ways that they see fit. So that if high school students or college students want to use this drug, they should work with their families and see if they can get permission that way. That, I think, is a much better way than saying that all adults can use it, all children cannot.
ABRAMS: But, see--but here's the problem. I think we're saying that the jury is still out on the long-term effects of ecstasy, and yet, why not wait till the jury comes in and then say, 'OK. Like other drugs, we're going to test it out. We're going to determine if it does have these long-term effects.' It sounds like what you're saying is, 'Let's make it legal. Let's leave it legal...'
Ms. GRACE: How can they do that?
ABRAMS: '...until we determine that it is terrible.'
Mr. DOBLIN: Well, don't you think that would be better than making a whole complex of people put in jail, a whole criminal--we add violence to our culture to put things--put people in jail if we don't even know it's dangerous? But ecstacy--MDMA has been around for 20, 25 years. A more neurotoxic drug, MDA, was very popular in the '60s.
Ms. GRACE: Right. And did you see that footage?
Mr. DOBLIN: And it doesn't cause these problems.
Ms. GRACE: Did you see that footage...
Mr. DOBLIN: People are not showing up.
Ms. GRACE: ...of that young lady being wheeled into an ambulance after she had ecstacy?
Mr. DOBLIN: Because of the laws, we don't even...
Ms. GRACE: That doesn't bother you a little bit?
Mr. DOBLIN: It bothers me terribly. I'm a parent. I have three kids. We don't even know what that girl did. She could have done an adulterated drug.
Ms. GRACE: She took ecstacy.
Mr. DOBLIN: We don't know that at all.
Ms. GRACE: That's what she did.
Mr. DOBLIN: No, we don't know that for sure.
Ms. GRACE: That's why they took her picture. Come on. You know what?
Mr. DOBLIN: I'm saying that there are a lot of adulterated drugs...
Ms. GRACE: I understand where you're headed about making this...
Mr. DOBLIN: Just because drugs have risks is not a reason to criminalize them.
Ms. GRACE: You don't even know what...
Mr. DOBLIN: Everything has risks.
Ms. GRACE: ...the risks are, Rick.
Mr. DOBLIN: I know more than you.
Ms. GRACE: And if you look at this...
Mr. DOBLIN: I've researched it for a long time. I've funded research in animals, in humans.
Ms. GRACE: Sir, if you look at this article that Ethan wrote--you say it's such casual use. There are people that take 20 and 30 of these pills a day...
Mr. DOBLIN: And I don't...
Unidentified Panelist: You know...
Ms. GRACE: ...and that's what you want legalized?
Mr. DOBLIN: I don't think there's a single person...
Unidentified Panelist: ...if you--if you...
Mr. DOBLIN: ...that takes 30 of these a day.
ABRAMS: All right. Ethan, is there a single person out there? I mean, i--and let's not even ask a single person.
Mr. DOBLIN: Thirty a day?
ABRAMS: Let's talk about sort of--generally, are there people out there who really are taking 20?
Mr. DOBLIN: There are.
Mr. BROWN: There are people who abuse the drug. But again I think to classify it as an addictive drug might be a mistake. I think...
Ms. GRACE: Well, why do you take--think they're taking 30 pills a day if it's not addictive?
Mr. DOBLIN: Because some people abuse, Nancy.
Mr. BROWN: I--I think for--for the--for the very--for the very same reason that someone might, you know, drink too much or smoke too much. It's--it's the same sort of thing.
Ms. GRACE: Yeah, it's called addiction.
Mr. DOBLIN: It's called abuse.
Ms. GRACE: Alcohol and nicotine...
Mr. BROWN: Right.
Ms. GRACE: ...are addictive...
Mr. BROWN: Right.
Ms. GRACE: ...and that's why they do it. And I'm not saying it should be outlawed simply because it's addictive, but when you've got brain damage as a possibility--and I know this gives you a feeling of euphoria, but along with that Saturday night high is what is known as the Tuesday killer, where you want to have suicide feelings after you take ecstasy over the weekend. Now you people might think it's OK to legalize that, but I don't want it out in the playgrounds with my little nieces and nephews.
ABRAMS: Sue Stevens, did you have any of that when you took the drug? I mean, we're all here talking, and you're the one--at least the only who's admitting that you have--have actually tried the drug. Was there anything where a few days after you took it you felt depressed?
Ms. STEVENS: No. Actually, a few days afterwards, we felt absolutely wonderful because we had incorporated everything that we learned that night into, you know, the next weeks, months.
ABRAMS: And, Nancy...
Ms. STEVENS: And we never had a problem with any side effects.
ABRAMS: ...an--and, Nancy, I think that the point that a lot of the guests are making--Michael Nasatir, some of the others--is, you know, we're talking about criminalizing this drug, we're talking about making these sentences stiffer, but that's what leads to the violence. The violence comes from the fact that they're fighting over their turf for the drug. It's a good
point, isn't it?
Ms. GRACE: I know. That's--that's a very common point that is made by people...
ABRAMS: And a good one, no?
Ms. GRACE: ...that want to legalize--no, I'm not persuaded by that at all. Now when it comes to Miss Stevens who we just heard from, you can even tell by her--her manner on television tonight, she had a controlled use of this. She said she used it two or three times...
ABRAMS: But...
Ms. GRACE: ...under a doctor's care with her husband. She is not l...
Ms. STEVENS: That was not doctor's care.
Ms. GRACE: Not a doctor's care.
Ms. STEVENS: No, we did this in an unsanctioned setting. We learned all that we could possibly learn about it, but because of the fact that it's illegal, we can't do it under a doctor's care.
Ms. GRACE: Right. I understand.
Ms. STEVENS: So we had to break the law to get the help that we needed.
Ms. GRACE: But it seems to me that her use of this in fighting an illness--a psychological problem they were having fighting cancer, it's a lot different than people popping 20 and 30 pills at a time.
ABRAMS: But, Nancy, if you're saying that, then aren't you saying that there are ways and times when ecstasy should be legal with a prescription...
Ms. GRACE: No, that's not what I'm saying.
ABRAMS: ...and not to create these stiff punishments...
Ms. GRACE: No.
ABRAMS: ...that are going to lead to high school...
Ms. GRACE: That's not what I'm saying.
ABRAMS: ...and college kids going to jail for a really long time?
Ms. GRACE: No, that's not what I'm saying. She used it simply as a user. The stiff penalties that are up for discussion tomorrow in Congress deal with distributors, people like the Israeli and the Russian mobs who are distributing these pills to people on high school grounds and elementary school playgrounds, Dan. That's the big difference.
ABRAMS: But...
Mr. NASATIR: And the--and--and the person that distributed it to Sue and her husband would be in jail right with them, Nancy, and you know it and I know it. And there's no reason to do it. We need to set priorities. We've got violence problems here in America. That's the people who should be put in jail, not our kids who are selling these small amounts to each other, and this is an illegal drug already. We're not talking about legalizing it.
Ms. GRACE: Well, if you are so sure...
Mr. NASATIR: We're talking about not putting in jail...
Ms. GRACE: ...that this...
Mr. NASATIR: ...people for 8 and 10 years like Commissioner Kelly wants us to.
Ms. GRACE: Why isn't the medical community supporting you? Why hasn't the AMA come out and said, 'Yes, we want ecstacy...'
Mr. NASATIR: Because...
Ms. GRACE: '...used for medicinal purposes'?
Unidentified Panelist: Look, you know actually why?
Mr. NASATIR: ...because--because the political popular...
Ms. GRACE: They haven't. They've rejected this.
Mr. NASATIR: ...thing, Nancy, is to say what you say and talk about giving it to your...
Ms. GRACE: No, I disagree. I disagree.
Mr. NASATIR: ...12-year-old daughter, and my 12-year-old daughter. I'd like to teach her to say no when somebody offers her--her--her eco--ecstacy...
Ms. GRACE: Well, I admire you for that.
Mr. NASATIR: ...an--and--because that's the way to solve the problem.
Ms. GRACE: But when you keep talking about this...
Mr. DOBLIN: N--Nancy...
Ms. GRACE: ...as medicine, the medical community disagrees and rejects your theory.
Mr. DOBLIN: ...no, that's not true. That is absolutely not true. The problem with criminalizing drugs is that it's almost impossible to get permission to do research into their medical benefits. We've seen it with marijuana. It's the case with MDMA. We have tried since 1985, when MDMA was made illegal, to get permission to do a study with MDMA and cancer patients. We have not been able to get permission. We've had to go to Spain to do a study now with women survivors of rape who have post-traumatic stress to see how we can use it in the therapeutic context with them. But it's very difficult to get doctors to even be willing to put their careers on the line to try and do research. It's very dif...
Ms. GRACE: And what were the findings in Spain?
Mr. DOBLIN: We're just starting the study next month, but there's an...
Ms. GRACE: So you have no concrete evidence, and you want to legalize this.
Mr. DOBLIN: We have thousands of anecdotal reports...
Ms. GRACE: Anecdotal.
Mr. DOBLIN: ...which are dismissed because we cannot get permission.
ABRAMS: And...
Ms. GRACE: You tell that lady...
Mr. DOBLIN: We've not been able to get permission to do the research.
ABRAMS: ...and...
Ms. GRACE: ...that I just saw being wheeled on to an ambulance...
Mr. DOBLIN: That's what our struggle is about.
ABRAMS: All right. Ethan Brown, you were t--you--in your article you talk about fakes, that there is one problem out there with, you know, the drug appearing to be ecstacy, but it turns out it's not and that that may have been the cause of a lot of the deaths.
Mr. BROWN: Right.
ABRAMS: And that would seem to support the argument that we should legalize ecstacy.
Mr. BROWN: Well, there--you know, the--the enormous black market in ecstacy right now has created a huge number of fakes. You're seeing everything from antihistamine to insecticide, from h--heroin, cocaine, speed. People will sell anything right now as ecstacy because the--the profit margin to do so is so high.
ABRAMS: Yeah, what is it? Give--give me a sense of what it costs them to make it, to the distributor, to the person who buys it on the street.
Mr. BROWN: I understand at the dis--you know, at the manufacturing level, it's as little as 5 cents. At the distributor level, they can sell it to dealers from $ 5 to $ 8. That dealer then sells it on to the customer for anywhere from $ 25 to $ 40. So you're seeing significant markups along each sort of--part of the--of the distribution chain.
ABRAMS: And, Nancy, isn't that the problem? I mean, I heard Commissioner Kelly talking about the profit margins. Isn't that what is sort of driving people nuts, is the fact that they can make such a profit off of it and not actually...
Ms. GRACE: No.
ABRAMS: ...the medical effects of the drug?
Ms. GRACE: That may--that may very well be what's bugging some people, but that's not what's bugging me. Another issue we haven't even touched on is this. Ecstasy is well known as a sex drug. It makes you want to have sex.
Mr. DOBLIN: No.
Ms. GRACE: In the age of the AIDS...
Mr. DOBLIN: That's not accurate.
Ms. GRACE: Well, you know, take a look at Ethan's article.
Mr. DOBLIN: It promotes communication. It promotes communication.
Ms. GRACE: Well, you call it whatever you want to, OK? But with the AIDS virus rampant--and you want to l--legalize a sex drug--I think it's incredibly irresponsible.
ABRAMS: Go ahead, Rick.
Mr. NASATIR: The only--the only reason anybody wants to legalize it is so it can be controlled, so these people can't--can't be...
Ms. GRACE: It can't be controlled.
Mr. NASATIR: ...passing off something that--that's more dangerous than ecstacy really is. The second thing is--look, as long as there's demand, there's going to be people doing it who want to do it. What you want to do is talk to the young people...
Ms. GRACE: That doesn't make it OK.
Mr. NASATIR: ...and get them to agree with your point of view.
Ms. GRACE: That doesn't make it OK just because people want to do it.
Mr. NASATIR: Don't put more people in jail. It doesn't do any good, Nancy.
Ms. GRACE: Just because people want...
Mr. NASATIR: It doesn't meet the challenge.
Ms. GRACE: ...to commit murder or use cocaine...
Mr. NASATIR: It--it doesn't meet the challenge.
Ms. GRACE: ...you should legalize it?
Mr. NASATIR: Don't--legalize it if you want to control it so that it--no, none of those fakes come.
Ms. GRACE: Well, as of tonight, the rest of America doesn't agree with you.
Mr. NASATIR: And, Nancy, you talk about the gurney. You take 30 aspirins, you're going to be on the same gurney. Don't abuse. Don't...
ABRAMS: We're going to take a break. I want to thank Ethan Brown, Sue Stevens, and Rick Doblin. When we come back, we're going to talk about Internet snooping, a new FBI program which can look into your e-mails. And then we're going to talk about a get-tough sheriff who says that he thinks everyone should be able to see his criminals at work. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a minute.
(Announcements)
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MDMA use was strongly and significantly associated with a history of recent unprotected anal intercourse. [Klitzman RL et al, Am J Psychiatry 2000 Jul 01;157(7):1162-1164]
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