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Covid-19 Recompensated for being put out of work due to coronavirus?

tathra

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Capitalism and communism should be voluntary
capitalism requires the force of the state to exist and function. property rights only exist because the government enforces them, otherwise you only "own" something so long as you have the strength to keep it. and all the wealth held by the "richest" people is imaginary and only exists because the government says it does, which is why they're "losing billions" during economic slowdowns like right now

the final state of communism, on the other hand, involves the dissolution of all states and borders, and workers should always get the full value that their labor produces, instead of allowing parasites to steal 90%+ of it right off the top; "profit" is just a fancy word for wage theft
 

Captain.Heroin

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capitalism requires the force of the state to exist and function.
Uh... no... it requires a currency, goods, and people.

THE STATE is required in TOTALITARIANISM AND NATIONAL SOCIALISM AND COMMUNISM, as well as livable perfectly normal (albeit not my cup of tea) centrist politics you are WRONG.

Currency does not have to be created or maintained by a company (Federal Reserve) or a nation (Federal US Government). Get it?

Are you really going to sit here and tell me BTC doesn't exist? That gold, platinum, diamonds aren't currencies? Any commodity can be a currency. Normally there is an acceptable standardized one and that becomes a currency.

People and goods are really the only necessity. And if you consider people become goods in the abhorrent conditions of slavery and human trafficking...

People are the only requirement.

I would say "food" as well, but you all know what Soylent Green is...

the final state of communism, on the other hand, involves the dissolution of all states and borders, and workers should always get the full value that their labor produces, instead of allowing parasites to steal 90%+ of it right off the top; "profit" is just a fancy word for wage theft
Selfishness, exploitation and human greed originates in the minds of individuals. It's not a social practice that can be eliminated, like a religious institution. Your ideas while elegant are quite impossible, I am sorry.

You might have sympathy for Donald Trump, that he's a "product of capitalist upbringings". Don't. He is a terrible human being. You are supposed to hate people like him. There will be others like him.
 

tathra

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currency only exists as a holder for the value of labor, so that we don't have to do the ridiculous chain of sidequests that would be required to get anything through a barter only system. that's a separate issue and concept from capitalism though, same as markets are completely separate and independent from it

I would love to be able to treat billionaires like dragons and kill them and earn their hoard of wealth, but the instant you tried to liquidate it, it would lose all its "value" because it's all imaginary wealth in the first place, that's kinda the whole idea of fiat currencies, they only have any value because the state says they do
 

Xorkoth

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Selfishness, exploitation and human greed originates in the minds of individuals. It's not a social practice that can be eliminated, like a religious institution. Your ideas while elegant are quite impossible, I am sorry.

In this I sadly agree with you. We can't eliminate human greed, some humans are sociopathic power mongers. Nature abhors a vacuum, and sociopaths rush to fill it with their power.
 

Yourbaker

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Currency isn't a forced value by government, it's imaginary. You can get whatever the seller is willing to give up for what they believe the currency is worth.

At least the current world currencies, once upon a time money had a set value but we went to imaginary money value a while ago.

Shutting down the society as we have done requires a minimal number of workers at a time, working necessary jobs. The issue becomes replacing those workers (mostly labour and many requiring skilled labour) when they become sick. Replacing sick labour positions with office workers who are in isolation can't happen in a capitalist society. Normally capitalism would bring in cheap labour from outside the border but pandemics don't respect borders.

We are all sitting at home with a lot of time to reflect on what part of the solution we can bring. Some people just get full of fear and panic but some see even this as an experience that can make us much stronger as a race. How we face it, alone or together, is a choice we need to make.
 

tathra

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what we need to do is turn this into a general strike until our demands are met for everyone to have healthcare and get paid a living wage, and ensure the most vulnerable aren't left suffering homeless and starving, permanently, not just as a temporary fix to allow rich white people to stay rich and in power
 

Nagelfar

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Free Will is the most important ingredient in any social foray. If you generalize capitalism or communism as true beyond you, we disagree, and without consensus, we have a disagreement which marginalizes your will to socially organize how you choose.

How did my thread get hijacked into a communism discussion?
 
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Nagelfar

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State control is what the shut downs are about. You could argue libertarianism would be an alternative. So where is the actual empirical answer to my question, what Jay Inslee and WA state unemployment are doing?

And no, it is not rhetorical, nobody mentioned communism until you brought it up.
 

tathra

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And no, it is not rhetorical, nobody mentioned communism until you brought it up.
"I think I should be paid despite not doing any work"
"wait why are we talking about communism?"

 

Nagelfar

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To each a according to their own. I am not producing anything for the people. Free monies a communist society does not make.

I just don't appreciate my real world question being replaced by abstract meandering and out of place political theory. I made a thread for that and it got no response.
 
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novaveritas

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To each a according to their own. I am not producing anything for the people. Free monies a communist society does not make.

I just don't appreciate my real world question being replaced by abstract meandering and out of place political theory. I made a thread for that and it got no response.

To be pragmatic, Talk to your landlord now and get some breathing space, if they have any brains whatsoever they will realize that they don't really have a lot of good options, they could evict you but that requires courts and lawyers and all those non essential systems being operational and continuing to be operational long enough to throw you out, then they end up with an empty property, no income and absolutely no protection for the property which if you stay, you provide.

If the landlord is being an asshole, then nothing good will come of it, The government are already bailing out the speculators on Wall Street and they will bail out the rentier class, they may throw some crumbs to everyone else but they don't really want to. If the fabled Trump check comes out, all of say 1000 USD and a tax delay how long is that going to last people...less than a month a couple of months at most. You need to buy time and breathing space.

The over-reactions and shutdowns will ultimately hurt and kill more people than the virus ever could. Liberty and freedom is already dying and foolish people are willingly handing over more freedoms and liberty each passing day. Some people here get it. Some people understand that security comes from looking after your neighbors because one day the tables might be turned. You may be surprised by the amount of enlightened self interest in your neighbors.


I will make a more general point but everything below is sort of off topic:

The American regime, the government, has shown its true lack of humanity understanding and compassion repeatedly over the last few months, which is so disappointing because there are plenty of intellegent Americans who do have humanity and compassion but their voices are drowned out. Belligerently blaming China or Iran anyone, it doesn't care about American citizens, it doesn't fear you, it is fighting everyone. Don't expect the government to fix anything, they won't.

typical of the recent extreme rhetoric is
The Wuhan virus is a killer and the Iranian regime is an accomplice.” Pompeo

the world hears that and it hears a slightly different message, USA is intent on weaponizing the crisis. I don't think many Americans understand the seething anger it has created in enemies and so called allies. The level of anger in Germany over Trumps Curevac stunt is extreme, I don't think the Chinese are too happy with the Americans either. The USA is getting very close to learning first hand the meaning of blow-back, it is not too late but almost. The USA has the mighty dollar, so what, that is all the USA has. To all Americans: get building those shining castles on the hill, Now!!
 

tathra

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some yandere's basement
I just don't appreciate my real world question being replaced by abstract meandering and out of place political theory. I made a thread for that and it got no response.
I don't care that you want to dance around it and refuse to call it what it is, it's a thread explicitly about the problems of capitalism and your desire to not suffer under them anymore, to be able to survive and have your needs met despite not being productive

everyone should have all their essential survival needs met regardless of how useful they are to society, I'm in total agreement with you there, but as long as we're discussing communism im going to correctly call it what it is
 

Nagelfar

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Capitalism has plenty of footholds for unemployment. Your amazing and insulting original assumption was that I was not a communist: a flagrant indication of your own elitism. Derisive factions and labels are what destroyed it's chances and maybe I'd call myself otherwise if it weren't those armchair intellectualizers causing so much damage. So the problems I face make me seem myself a Prerogative Federalist.
 

Captain.Heroin

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That feeling I get when you think $1,000 is going to last you forever is that feeling Pelosi gets when she doesn't sign you getting the thousand dollars at all suck it up people are going to get the virus as a pandemic and you think you're never going to get it come out of your fucking shells go do the fucking world and open the goddamn clubs bars and businesses again I want to go have fucking fun what is wrong with this world...

All those people want to do is shut everything down on Sundays and then they're like okay well if I get sick at church and I don't even get to have church then you can't do anything during the week like Trump thinks I can stay inside all day long yeah without medication you think that's going to work?

He can't even keep Mexicans out of America the fucking racist ass hole and then he thinks he can tell me what to do hell no!

He was never a nationalist he was never going to give us $1,000 and he probably asked Pelosi not to sign it

Whatever amount of money he paid the Chinese germ warfare labs to release covid 19 is probably the same amount of money he offered Pelosi not to sign the thousand dollar checks for all of us and you all think that it's a natural virus you do you think it's not connected to Iran at all? sure keep thinking it it's all connected to him getting re-elected everything is.

Or it's a big fucking coincidence Trump going to get reelected and I called it last year and I've been calling it every step of the way through this pandemic there's absolutely nothing going to stop him now because the Democratic party is going to split in fracture through the Socialists divide and the big corporate divide thanks to Pelosi she threw Trump the election probably for a whole bunch of money money runs the world I've been saying it for a while and nobody believes me unless they really understand that it does
 
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