Heroin Quitting Heroin with Buprenorphine fast taper

[Phil.McKeer]

OP, from what I can tell, you are 100% dead on with what you plan to do and with what you've gleaned from your research.

Most people reporting negative experiences with bupe were likely prescribed too high a dose for too long a period by misinformed doctors. A fast taper will accomplish exactly what you want without producing any negative effects from switching to bupe.

Edit: There will, of course, be a period of time after your taper where you will be uncomfortable, but I'm sure you are aware that subs aren't a 100% "get out of jail free" card. I just want to point out that it's important to have a plan for this stage of your detox as well, but from what I can tell you are pretty intelligent and probably have this covered.

 

[manboychef]

@bbt. After being on 16mg a day of bupe for two years I quit. The withdrawals were not as full on in your face like a heroin with drawal is, but they were long lasting, and would come in pretty terrible waves.

I ended up relapsing after eight days since the cessation of bupe. At the time, all I could get were dilaudid. Where it would only take me 2 to feel a rush and be a bit high before, it was taking me 4-5 to get off sick. I could routinely do triple what the people around me were shooting when it came to H. I also had a friend that would use with me, and he experienced the same problems after bupe.

I don't know about you, but while I was on bupe, I constantly craved a rush, so I ended up abusing IV coke...and bupe does nothing for the comedown.

 

[Jabberwocky]

nah, man.. I have no urge at all. I never shot coke really, only 1 or 2 speedballs lifetime, so I cant really say. I do take benzos to help sleep, or on a "stressful" day ill take benzos when I know ill be out doing things like court, RMV, all shit related to my fuck ups, ha. kinda funny I take a benzo to go out for my fuck ups; as long as its not dope I am fucking sober, man. you dont see me nodding, talking stupid, looking whacky - 12MG bupe and 1MG benzo and I am fine! but its funny to think how bad this would be to a random dude.

 

[Jabberwocky]

its funny cuz that is sober to me.

 

[PaPaOPI]

Dear OP,

Simply put, from personal experience and research...

You have enough Bupe to taper off a Fent habit.....I did it with less and was on 150 micrograms/48hrs and was abusing the patches.

Do a quick 10 day taper, then skip day 11, minor dose day 12, skip day 13 and 14, see how you feel. If your Wd are minor your good to go and your body will do the rest. Don't forget Bupe has a long half life (36hrs roughly) so even a 10 day taper will cause a build up in your system enough to come down the scale line smoothly when you jump a day as mentioned above.
Good luck

PapaO

 

[manboychef]

@bbt. I know just what you mean. I used to be an extreme mess. Now sober for me, is taking kratom for chronic pain, and taking benzos when I am having bad anxiety and to sleep at night.

It is like as long as I dont go back down that path that fahqed my life so bad.

To OP: Getting off the opiates is only the first step in the process. There is a hard road ahead of you. If you need help with cravings, anxiety/depression, or suddenly feeling feelings again, feel free to PM, and also check out the recovery forums.

 

[Happypantiesss]

Okay so I had about a gram a day heroin habit for about the last 9 months...never used needles or anything, just snorted it. I have now been clean 5 days and feel pretty much completely back to normal other than my sleep being a little but off but that's really all I'm dealing with.

A friend of mine came over last night to smoke with me and gave me a percocet 30 just as a "gift" and I'd love to do it today since I have to go out and do a bunch of stuff today however I'm terrified that my withdrawals will start completely over. The first 2-3 days were awful (hot/cold flashes, sore achy body, just felt like dying basically) I just want to make sure this one pill isn't going to completely restart my withdrawals.

Thanks!

 

[Jabberwocky]

prob. wont but why even bother? lol. its either you leave for good or do it daily, lets face it. there is no middle ground w/ dope; or at least not for me.

 

[Happypantiesss]

Well, I did it this morning...Honestly, I didn't even feel anything at all (which I figured I wouldn't considering my tolerance from the H) but now it's just hoping and praying I wake up feeling normal tomorrow. Fingers crossed! Please say a prayer for me!


On another note: Suboxone is the absolute worst thing I have ever withdrawaled from...I did a quick 4 day taper getting all the way down to .5 mg from only starting with less than 2mg and by day 12 I had absolutely no improvement in my withdrawals...on day 12 I had an H binge for about 3 days which caused some nasty withdrawals but after 3 days of those withdrawals I felt perfectly normal other than my sleep still being off. Anyone debating on getting clean...cold turkey is the way to go. Suboxone is just a money pit for doctors. They are full of lies. After some major research I found that your body isn't even able to absorb over 4mg of bupe so anything over that causes a stacking effect in the brain which is part of the reason it has such a long half life. Methadone I know nothing about but please, PLEASE stay away from Bupe, it is nothing but a monster. I promise you.

 

[another.meaty.hole]

Not quite sue if the op has found his answer yet or not, but I have tapered myself off heroin using suboxone many times and I actually find that using smaller amounts seems to work just as well if not better than the relatively high doses that your standard hospital detox would give you. My point being, I was IV'ng anywhere from one to three grams of heroin a day, and all I would need was 2mg of bope after 24hours of my last heroin dose and I would feel fantastic. Bupe is much stronger than most people think, and it really does not take much. My regular quick detox taper schedule would go like this:
Wait 24 hours from last heroin dose, and take 2mg,
after twelve hours take another 2mg,
twelve more hours and take 2mg,
twelve more hours and take 1mg
twelve more hours and take 1mg
twelve more hours and take 1mg
then start taking .5 mg as necessary to treat any left over withdrawal symptoms.
however PAWS is a bitch, but in my opinion it is better to only use suboxone for the first 3-5 days because you really do not want to get a suboxone habit. In my opinion it much far worse than heroin withdrawal because of the amount of time you will be sick. I hope I helped out, this is actually my first post, but I have been reading this site for years.
one more note: this taper was for my habit and for a small habit of about .1g a day I would say it would work better by using 1/4 of wha I was, so 2mg would be .5mg and 1mg would be .25mg and so on. Good luck to you.

 

[Carl Landrover]

My estimation for needing 4mg of Bupe is based on this rough calculation.

100mg Heroin #3 approximately 50% pure and smoking bioavailability is 40% max so I'm getting roughly a 20mg dose of Diamorphine.

Since Bupe is 10 times more potent but bioavailability is about 40% sublingually then 4mg is roughly equivalent to 16mg of Diamorphine.

I'm just looking for it to keep the withdrawal at bay a bit and I've read that you should start low if you can.

Those numbers seem way off, especially if you're just trying to keep "WDs at bay". You should start as low as you can, which is why you should start with 1mg and see how that makes you feel. Wait an hour after you take it and see how you feel. I definitely wouldn't just start at 4mg.

If you have a current habit, you're going to have to make a number of changes in your life to actually stay away from using again. The whole purpose of taking suboxone and being on it for at least a few months is that it gives you a chance to make new routines and new habits, as well as picking up the pieces of your life that using has affected. Plus it gives you more time away from the entire scene and the people/places that were triggers. In the time you're on sub you can start rebuilding a life, so that you don't just go back to using. Just my 2 cents, since I don't usually think a rapid taper is all that effective if the goal is to stay away for long-term.

The PAWS also seem to be have greater impact the quicker you get off everything. So a slower taper will make the weeks after you finally stop much easier to get through.

you are smoking .1 to .2 of HEROIN a day? so that is 1/10 of a G, right? just want to make sure we are using the same scale since I am in the US.

but if we are, you have a very minor problem and I am shocked that taking an OC 20 would not hit you harder than you hitting a .1 of dope.

Why would you think 100mg of heroin would be so much weaker than 20mg of oxycodone?

 

[Jabberwocky]

why would I think that? cuz its a bit stronger, is it not? but if hes smoking vs eating then yeah, would get similar feeling.

thats a dumb question to ask, no!? thats like saying why would you think a half gram is less than a full gram? its .1 vs .2, so its stronger, is it not? so he doubles his dose in a way.

 

[Sparkoid]

Hi all

Thanks everyone for their experiences. It seems only fair that I share mine and I will promise to update you all daily until this is done.

I spent the end of last week using up a 0.5g bag of good quality #3. I bid it farewell with a bit of a binge on Thursday and smoked 0.25g which got me nice. Then I drew out the rest over the weekend until finally running out very late Sat / Sun AM. I had an OC20 I used Sunday morning so I could get some sleep.

I was into full withdrawal by 6pn Sunday night and by 4am Monday morning I was deep into withdrawal with severe RLS. I took 1mg Bupe, waited an hour and ut was definitely helping but not enough for sleep as RTLS seemed to be last symptom left. I have Zopicone to help me sleep. I finally gave in and took the other 1mg of Bupe at 5am and I was soon asleep and have only just woken up. I'm groggy and have the aches and chills but very mild and I feel like a human again. I now know in hindsight I had gone well into the withdrawal but I was worried about precip withdrawal if I took Bupe too soon.

I'm working (I can work from home) so that's more than I could have hoped for. My kids will be cared for and dinner will be on the table for them later.

Tonight I am going to leave it as late as I can and take 1mg only and see how we go. I don't intend on being on these any longer than I need to. If I am going to have withdrawals breaking through I'd prefer it in the day where RLS is not going to keep me awake. My target to be off Bupe with tiny doses is the weekend.

 

[Sparkoid]

Thanks Carl, I understand you have my best interests at heart and I think you for your feedback but you have no idea of my situation and what support I have around me which wasn't what I was asking about.

My calculations weren't that far out as it happens as I needed 2mg to stop the WD's and as I found out in the last couple of days I was probably on about 200mg a day of very high quality gear.

I am regularly attending NA and have been for a few months. I have a sponsor and I am one of the lucky ones who is getting off the elevator before it reaches the basement. I have a family, a good job, a nice house and two nice cars. If I hadn't jumped now, I'm pretty sure the wheels would have started falling off soon.

Once I complete this fast taper with absolute minimum doses (my original plan seems to be about 50% too high but I'd rather have wasted a few quid on having too many than not enough).

Now can everyone relax and let me get on with the task at hand, then I give first hand experience. I'm on day 2 now and so far so good.

Oh and regarding PAWS... Just taking each day at a time.

 

[Sparkoid]

Well, I did it this morning...Honestly, I didn't even feel anything at all (which I figured I wouldn't considering my tolerance from the H) but now it's just hoping and praying I wake up feeling normal tomorrow. Fingers crossed! Please say a prayer for me!


On another note: Suboxone is the absolute worst thing I have ever withdrawn from...I did a quick 4 day taper getting all the way down to .5 mg from only starting with less than 2mg and by day 12 I had absolutely no improvement in my withdrawals...on day 12 I had an H binge for about 3 days which caused some nasty withdrawals but after 3 days of those withdrawals I felt perfectly normal other than my sleep still being off. Anyone debating on getting clean...cold turkey is the way to go. Suboxone is just a money pit for doctors. They are full of lies. After some major research I found that your body isn't even able to absorb over 4mg of bupe so anything over that causes a stacking effect in the brain which is part of the reason it has such a long half life. Methadone I know nothing about but please, PLEASE stay away from Bupe, it is nothing but a monster. I promise you.

Well we will see how it works for me but you had a very tolerance I'm afraid. Did I read in a comment that your were IV'ing 1g of #4 a day? Shit mate, it's no surprise BUpe didn't help. You would need methadone to control that beast. I smoking about 100mg before having a bit of a short binge over a few weeks up to about 200mg. They think that by smoking you actually get about 50% in your bloodstream and with #3 about 50% pure so I was on about 50mg a day. If you sniff good #4 that 60% bioavailability with high purity so maybe 500mg a day.

 

[Sparkoid]

And just a note for all.

I see a lot of comments on here about how shit one method is, how shit another method is. Also how terrible PAWS is and how hard it all is to give up.

Yeah no shit.

But how is life on it? A walk in the park right? All the lying, cheating? walking around like a fucking zombie, losing your friends, kissing goodbye to family events because you'd rather stay at home and get high?

I've only been on this since June and in that time I've missed out on so much of the good stuff in life. Even in that time I can see the damage it's casing me. If a fast taper on Bupe is no better then it is what it is and I'll pay the piper next week instead. PAWS was always going to be an issue and the reason why I'm an addict is not going away just because I ghave up but I am stopping and I'll do the rest a day a at a time. I want to spend time with my family, friends and get back some of the stuff I'd let slip.

Just for today I feel ok, last night was utterly shit and I expect that once this Bupe starts to wear off it will get shit again but at least for this week it gives me some control so my life can be managed.

 

[spacejunk]

Keep going champ, you can do it.
You know you can, and you're fucking right!

 

[manboychef]

Paws is no joke my friend. You may think you have it licked after a month, but usually at the sixty and ninety day off opiate mark you will have a resurge of PAWS symptoms. Just be ready when that happens.

You are doing awesome. You can do it! If you need any tips or tricks on beating PAWS feel free to PM me. Also, if you feel the urge to use, come on here. There are many recovering opiate addicts that you can talk to to beat the cravings.

 

[spacejunk]

PAWS is tough, but not insurmountable by any means.
Stay strong, my friend!

 

[Sparkoid]

Paws is no joke my friend. You may think you have it licked after a month, but usually at the sixty and ninety day off opiate mark you will have a resurge of PAWS symptoms. Just be ready when that happens.

You are doing awesome. You can do it! If you need any tips or tricks on beating PAWS feel free to PM me. Also, if you feel the urge to use, come on here. There are many recovering opiate addicts that you can talk to to beat the cravings.

Thanks for the offer but I find these forums tend to be more about taking drugs and harm reduction rather than recovery. I am on a program with NA and I have a sponsor so I suspect once I'm clean and I mean clean of Bupes too I'll not be on these forums as much, if at all. Unless it is to offer other users hope.

From what I can tell I must have got the dose about right as it's starting to break through again with streaming nose and eyes, aches and sweats. I need to hold off the next dose until I go to bed so I get a good sleep. My plan is to try 1mg tonight and see if it's enough to take the edge off and let me sleep.