Opioids Questions about kicking a long-term, low-dose opiate habit

[P Schwangles]

I realize there are probably similar threads out there, but it has been laborious for me to find the answers I seek, so I figure I should try creating a thread. I have had a low-dose opiate habit (mostly oxycodone) for I guess 8 or 9 years now. For the first few years it was around 20mg/day. At my worst I was using 30mg a day for maybe a couple years, but for the last 3 or 4 years now it has fluctuated between 7.5 and 15mg a day, or the kratom equivalent (that shit really works as far as making you feel ok). Several weeks ago, I discontinued my daily habit, but in order to pull myself together for select occasions, I have wound up cheating every 3 to 5 days or so, usually with just one or two 2.5mg doses. I have found it fascinating that, when the regiment is at such a low dosage level, I seem to be more sensitive to the effect of opiates than someone who doesn't use them. 2.5mg of oxy really makes me feel better for some hours.

The reason I created this thread is that I'm wondering if anyone has experience to tell me what the implications of doing this (cheating) are? It has been several weeks now since giving up my daily use, and I'm not sure I feel that much better than I did after my first few days. I'm still experiencing the low-energy/motivation, lethargy, anxiety, muscle-restlessness, that I associate with opiate-less-ness. I'm wondering if taking these small doses every 4 days could keep me feeling kind of lame indefinitely (like I'm never finished "detoxing"), or if this extended lame feeling is just par the course for kicking a several year habit, even if it's a low-dose habit? Obviously, taking 1 or 2 percocets a week would never create a dependence for a normal person, but is it enough to maintain one in someone who has been dependent? [The pharmacology of this whole process is definitely interesting to me. I'm guessing it's much more complicated than just up/down-regulation of mu opioid receptors.] It has just been really hard for me to not take these occasional doses because some occasions just call for me to really have to pull myself together more than I feel up to. It has also been made harder by the fact that I'm having relationship troubles, so I'm going through more emotional stuff anyways.

Is total abstinence of all mu agonists for a prolonged period the only way I will be able to get my endorphin system normal again? For how long? Would "cheating" with kratom be a safer idea than a couple mg of oxy?


[[[It may be worth mentioning that I am still using other drugs to help me feel better. I've had a dextroamphetamine prescription since high school (in my early 30s now). I probably take 15mg most days. I never used to take benzos regularly but now I've been using them in low doses at least every other day for the anxiety and occasional body-restlessness and insomnia. I've also been doing 50-100mg of ketamine more nights than not, and 15mg doses of mxe on some days. Mxe definitely helps with discomfort, but it isn't necessarily the best for productivity.
Despite the fact that these other drugs probably have their own effect on my general state, I associate these lame low-energy, sometimes anxious, occasional body-restless feeling with opiate-less-ness.]]]

 

[sasin9]

The simple fact is, if you haven't gone through withdrawal long enough to feel normal, to get normal sleep etc, you are just prolonging the withdrawal for a mere 12 hours of opiate buzz. I did this for over a year. If you can make it 5 days with access to the pills, 10 days should be a piece of cake if you want it. As far as cheating with kratom goes, I've never used it myself but id imagine taking any agonist will retard your progress.

 

[namnoc16]

As long as you keep fucking around your body won't produce dopamine on its own and yes your sober periods will always have you feeling lethargic,sniffly,anxious, insomnia and all the other bullshit that goes with it. Sounds to me like your doing a prolonged self torture. As Denzel says in training day the left or the right nut make a decision.

 

[ColoradoBoy90]

Exactly, if you can go say 5 days without taking any meds then just don't take any at all and quit. I didn't mean the entire post so forgive me if I'm wrong.

If you need a comfort med, Tramadol will stop all W/D's when only taking such a low dosage. You could take Tramadol for a week, while tampering down on the tramadol and then just quit. That will cut W/D's down BIG TIME.

But like others have said if you keep taking more, even infreqently, your body won't get back on track for dopamine, endorphins, etc.. It needs a break, the longer the better. And if you want to truly get off them entirely you have the ability with how low dosage you are so your body can repair itself and be "clean" or "free".

 

[tnvol44]

Been through the same thing,there's just no way to avoid paying the piper.You can avoid getting sick with those low doses but eventually you are going to have to go through the WD's.It is such a low dose habit,I wouldn't think it would be that bad,get you some xanax,something to keep you from shitting all the time,and plenty of water.You can do it,you just have to want to is all.

 

[P Schwangles]

Thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, I'm not dosing just to cut the withdrawals at this point; I'm not as overtly uncomfortable as continuously, but I still don't have the flow of energy that makes me feel up to doing stuff as well as I know I can. My biggest temptation to dose myself had been to pull it together and really be energetically prepared for something that feels important. My last dose was when I went into the studio to record for one of the bands I'm in. I'm pretty damn sure I would have not been nearly as good that day if I hadn't taken a couple milligrams, and that would have been a shame. I'm just trying to figure out what the true cost is of me doing that. I think I'm on day 6 of this round, and pretty determined to hold out longer than I have been.
It's stupid that you could keep yourself feeling lame indefinitely with such a small amount of opiates, but I guess that might be the way it is until I take a break long enough to start feeling good again....

 

[Bropiace]

Well I for one disagree with what most people have said.

However I am not speaking from experience and if you are able to speak to an addiction specialist doctor that would be your best source of information.

I mainly disagree on the statement that by taking a bit here and there your brain will not heal itself and learn back to produce what it needs. If that was the case tapering wouldn't work. People on Sub wouldn't lower their tolerance, etc... It is possible however that it will slow your progress. However even from 48 hours tolerance break I have found I am lowering my tolerance. Which has to mean that some healing takes place.

Intuitively, I'd say that since you have stayed on low dose all this time it probably helped with the intensity of your withdrawal symptoms. But since you have been using quite a while, that is to me the most likely reason why you still feel lethargic and all the other PAWS crap. I would think that you are in for a few months before feeling normal again.

By the way I have been tapering for months and I am followed by an addiction doctor. He told me as long as you lower your dose, some healing happens. So I don't see why it wouldn't when you are days without using.

That being said, it is far from a good reason to advise you to continue as you do. Taking some here and there is a very very dangerous road for an addict. I discovered that it was usually easier for me to control my dose and using urge than most people (which is not to say I never slipped). I would think that if you managed to keep on such low dose all those years probably means that you are like this as well. So maybe you can succeed while still using here and there. My advice however would be to be very careful. Fix yourself some firm limits on how often you allow yourself to use and how much. If you ever break your own rules then completely stop for a few weeks. If you end up always breaking your own rules than you will know you can't continue like this because you will end up using regularly.

Good luck and if you can have a specialist to speak to about this would be the way to make sure you aint screwing yourself.

 

[jrs2029]

I would visualize the way you are dosing while attempting to be completely out of the woods like this; instead of every 4 days your body/mind taking 3 steps towards full recover, when you have a relapse (even tiny amounts) you are going to take some steps back. I agree with a previous post that eventually you will become fully recovered, but you are extending that amount of time quite a bit. If you needed to take 30 steps to getto full recovery and every 3 ststeps you end up takjng 1.5 back then obviously eventually you will reach 30, but it will take you MUCH longer. Which is what you are noticing now.

Hope that helped. Congrats on getting some control on it though!

 

[ladianios]

Not shitting on your habit bud but it is a tiny one and if I were u I would just white knuckle it for 2-3 days and u should start feeling g human in no time, I think your biggest prob is gonna be lack of sleep for a bit, some immodium the first few days and maybe clonidine if you can get it, do u t you will need it tho, good luck