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Questioning human morals through animal behavior

To rape back then would not have been the same rape of today because it evolved from a notion and then became a fact.
 
Well, consider the case of the Spartans. These guys would rape and pillage through a vanquished populace. They were not simply trying to subjugate the women.

The fact that rape can cause pregnancy is case enough and certainly a proof about the primality of the act. This has very little to do with the perceived morality of it today or back when.

PS: On that webpage full access to the journal entry is not found.
 
sdxyln said:
Well, consider the case of the Spartans. These guys would rape and pillage through a vanquished populace. They were not simply trying to subjugate the women.

The fact that rape can cause pregnancy is case enough and certainly a proof about the primality of the act. This has very little to do with the perceived morality of it today or back when.

PS: On that webpage full access to the journal entry is not found.
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Try Psychology Today or some other learned source.

I have been around for a while and have never seen the opinion I put refuted.

As to Spartans and other conquerors, they might have seen women as spoils of war. That still has a control component. I don't know how the weight of that control component compares to the spoils of war component by the experts.

Regards
DL
 
Soviet soldiers in Berlin mass raped the women near and after the end of the war.
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
Yet your self loathing, if you were a rapist, is not enough to make you say rape is evil.
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This same self-loathing has also been used to sharpen a rough edge. Yes, sharp blades are two edged and cut deep when used. Scars are the normal.
Rape is power-tripping: Rapists are mere bullies and will be dealt with individually at the time of offense. It will not be lenient as bullies get the strictest/quickest judgement.
Relax... your children have a friend while not in your watch.
Gnostic Bishop said:
If you were a judge, they would disbar you.
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"They" can do as they wish: "They" are a law unto themselves and do not abide the just (not compatible).
Fuck "them" as they do not know the way nor it's virtue.
Gnostic Bishop said:
Hearts do not think or judge.
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It is a touch-stone and is not logical. It is our best defense against the illusions and out-right bull-shit strewn about to hypnotize and put us to sleep.
Wake the fuck up!
Best always with love,
Ptah
 
sdxyln said:
Soviet soldiers in Berlin mass raped the women near and after the end of the war.
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Are you trying to refute the medical and legal science?

You are not doing so by just showing examples.

How do you explain the fact that when females were not available, the conquerors jumped on the assed of the men.

I will let you describe how a heterosexual man can turn to a homosexual act at the blink of an eye. Could you?

Consider that those rapes are control and humiliate the enemy factors and not primarily sexual, which is the scientific and medical view.

Regards
DL
 
PtahTek said:
It is a touch-stone and is not logical.
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It is an indicator or reactor to thought.

Gnostic Jesus was questioned as to what sees the vision?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/mary.html

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

===================

Christianity does not quite agree, wording wise, with us.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Our hearts just confirm that the vision is a treasure.

Regards
DL
 
The evolutionary remnants of animal behavior have still not worn off yet because we have resistance to advancing and evolving.

Even though we have achieved technological advancements and cognitive abilities that allow us to be philosophical and contemplate morality, we are still in the evolutionary stage where we have not yet transcended behaviors of competition, the struggle for power, alpha male type thinking, tribal behaviors, survival, fear, fight or flight responses, these are behaviors we are still hanging onto because of resistance and being scared of letting our guard down and thinking that the world is just out to get us so we feel that we need to defend ourselves.

Also we are in a generational cycle of trauma which makes it harder to evolve but at the same time these traumas are just a result of these survival esque lower level type of behaviors and domination. Also sexual behaviors.
 
ovenbakedskittles said:
scared of letting our guard down a
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You do not understand DNA as I do.

It tells us that we are the fittest of our line, and keeps our guards handy, just in case we decide to show our fittest side.

Biologically though, we default to doing good as that is the best survival strategy. Perhaps you focus too much on one aspect. We live in a dualistic universe and there are always two sides.

Embrace having your guards up buddy. All of our biases are in us thanks to the selfish gene and seeks life.

Your guard/biases, good and evil, as well as in all of us, just need mitigating.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
You do not understand DNA as I do.

It tells us that we are the fittest of our line, and keeps our guards handy, just in case we decide to show our fittest side.

Biologically though, we default to doing good as that is the best survival strategy. Perhaps you focus too much on one aspect. We live in a dualistic universe and there are always two sides.

Embrace having your guards up buddy. All of our biases are in us thanks to the selfish gene and seeks life.

Your guard/biases, good and evil, as well as in all of us, just need mitigating.

Regards
DL
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I don’t think what I said contradicts the polarizing aspect of the universe that always needs two sides in order to exist or be objective.

As a matter of fact I think the modern day understanding of dna and genetics and evolution in academia is actually what perpetuates deterministic behaviors and one-sided thinking.

I’m proposing the fact that it can be a choice whether to evolve or not evolve based on our level of resistance and its duality partner of allowing more so than just random natural selection and fixed tribal instincts. We can actually evolve backwards into caveman days if we chose to and we can also sustain behaviors of not letting our guard down because of pride for as long as we decide to.

Not letting our guard down is a choice we make in our minds and we can choose to exaggerate it and apply that to things when it’s not necessary and becomes habit and that makes it harder to mitigate or to let go of it as an evolutionary factor so that we can transcend into new ways of existing.
 
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I was just talking about this subject with someone today. When it comes to morals, developmental psychology has an interesting and useful framework for this. They have 6 levels of moral composition that are linked to development. Now, I don't fully buy into psych models because they are too categorical and hierarchical, but they do provide some insight.

The first morality that we learn in life is level 1 which is punitive morality. It means that you lack the cognitive development to understand the reasons behind rules, so you simply follow the rules in order to avoid negative stimulus (punishment). Without the negative stimulus, you may harm others. I don't fully buy this, like I said, because some infants display empathy without being told to. But nonetheless, I think level 1 is the level that most animals are operating on, and frankly a lot of humans. They won't do something because they'll be punished.

I don't remember all of the levels just now, but there is the reputation level... where you follow rules because you care what your community might think of you if you don't. Level 6 is apparently the highest, where you break or follow a rule based on collective benefit. It goes beyond just you and yours. Most people are only out for themselves, then their families, then maybe their close friends, and then maybe society beyond that... but most people will not stick their necks out for total strangers.

So most of humanity is kind of middle range, which is a product of our social nature. The only asset we have is big brains and we use those to collectivize safety, resources, etc... which means we have to get along... which means there is a personal and collective interest in maintaining certain moral values.

Morals are different than ethics though. Ethics are more actionable. Morals are just an idea. You may have a moral but your ethical behaviour is different. Maybe you're a hypocrite or maybe circumstances (i.e. poverty) force you to behave outside of your morals. Maybe your morals are just a show and your ethics reveal something else, or vice versa: you behave ethically but deep down you believe something else.

I think animals are a good template for examining the so-called "lower levels" of moral development, especially the other social animals. I don't think they are totally useful though because 1) animals deal with scarcity issues that humans no longer face as hardcore and 2) they are not intelligent in the way that we are intelligent. If you look to animals for morality, then you are forming morals on the basis of survival threats.

Over all, human war, violence, depravity, etc... has declined a lot in the past 200 years. It's because we removed the natural stressors that test our moral imperatives. It's easy to be moral and ethical if you have all your needs met.

Sorry to write a novel, but I'll say one more thing: not every culture orients morals the same way. In the west, our morals are more justice oriented. In other cultures, care matters more. In one culture it may be wrong to steal but in another stealing is bad unless it's to care for someone. In the animal kingdom, there are too many environmental stressors for us to fully comprehend what their internal morals really are. We only have their ethics to go on, which seem to involve a lot of killing and stealing.
 
pulverstaden said:
I'd call morality a product of fear and herd-mentality.
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Indeed, but fear of what?

The fear is of losing our security. That fear is generated by what they have dubbed our selfish gene.

Fear, hate and such negative biases, when created, are created by our love biases of their counterparts.

Love rules us, but love is a vicious bitch, genetically speaking.

All intelligent people will agree.

That last is a poor joke.

Regards
DL
 
Foreigner said:
The first morality that we learn in life is level 1 which is punitive morality.
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I cannot agree as we come out of the womb in cooperation mode. It is our default position. It is the best strategy for survival.

How can I say this. We come out to kiss the tit, not bite it.

That is level 2.0. Catch up. These last are for humor.

Much of the rest of what you put is first class.

Regards
DL
 
Foreigner said:
then you are forming morals on the basis of survival threats.
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Our selfish gene would have it no other way.

Enjoy being human.

I like that you accentuate the good progress we have made toward a civilized world.

Many do not know that statistically, we have never been this well off Most issues that we think are negative are at the best levels that we have collectively ever enjoyed.

Most of that progress was led by the secular side of life, in spite of the god religion preaching their vile homophobia and misogyny while badmouthing better secular equality laws.

There aught to be a law against such traitors to the state law of the land.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
Indeed, but fear of what?

The fear is of losing our security. That fear is generated by what they have dubbed our selfish gene.

Fear, hate and such negative biases, when created, are created by our love biases of their counterparts.

Love rules us, but love is a vicious bitch, genetically speaking.

All intelligent people will agree.

That last is a poor joke.

Regards
DL
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I'd say the fear of death is the primary drive behind all human, especially moral, behaviour.
The anxiety at the prospect of death rules us more than love.
 
pulverstaden said:
I'd say the fear of death is the primary drive behind all human, especially moral, behaviour.
The anxiety at the prospect of death rules us more than love.
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I cannot relate.

What a pitiable position from my spectrum.

Then again, I have claimed apotheosis or theosis and think there is some truth to the adage that many are called but only the few hear it.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
I cannot relate.

What a pitiable position from my spectrum.

Then again, I have claimed apotheosis or theosis and think there is some truth to the adage that many are called but only the few hear it.

Regards
DL
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From where I'm sitting it's liberating.
I have no problem not hearing the call from the "divine"; that call is for the crazy and lost.

:)
 
pulverstaden said:
From where I'm sitting it's liberating.
I have no problem not hearing the call from the "divine"; that call is for the crazy and lost.

:)
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To seek a natural ideal or fittest or god is good. Jesus recommended it. He warned against finding god and idol worshiping it.

I agree with your dislike of divine.

Gods name themselves that while ignoring that it is a label that can only be given. It is meaningless when applied to ones self.

Divine is the last attribute we Gnostic Christians label the vile demiurge Yahweh we know and dislike.

The call of the spiritual is good.

The call from the supernatural or literal gods is evil.

Just look at the garbage morals the religious preach, even against the law of the land.

Traitors to their countries.

Regards
DL
 
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