Psychedelic drugs can unlock mysteries of brain - David Nutt

You beat me to it! I love the way they banish him but he just keeps coming back!
 

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Which drugs would we say are capable of this then? I found I felt like I learned a lot from the K-hole last year, not so much this year but I'll put than down to quality rather than tollerance. I'm not a fan of acid anymore after a bad trip but DMT was another one that I would say definately unlocked a few mysteries, I'm thinking 4-ACO-DMT will be the same?
 
I think if a drug enables you to detach from ego (which involves anxiety, depression, prejudices, negativity etc etc) and question what Self is, or even discover your true nature, then its got to be helpful..liberating even.

What did you learn from K holes Rockstar i'm interested?
 
When he talks about unlocking the mysteries of the brain, I think he's talking about scientists undertaking research to better understand how consciousness emerges from matter, rather than individual users coming to mystical truths.
 
YellowPolkaDotHalo;10964160 said:
I think if a drug enables you to detach from ego (which involves anxiety, depression, prejudices, negativity etc etc) and question what Self is, or even discover your true nature, then its got to be helpful..liberating even.
Assuming the ego exists, how do you know that taking psychedelic drugs detaches you from it? What if you're just experiencing another facet of the ego? Why would your nature on a psychedelic drug be any truer than you're normal state?
 
I've long thought that the concept of a person experiencing ego-death is self-contradictory (if the ego, i.e. you, is somehow banished from existence, who is experiencing the phenomenon?).
 
I asked that and the answer the ego-people came up with was "While your ego is dead, your memory is still working". Another one said something like "I am not aware of what has happened to me at all so I was not experiencing it"...but they still somehow knew it had happened.

I asked one if a tramp came in while you were experiencing ego-death and told you he was going to take all your stash of acid and all your money would you be able to stop him and they said "No".

I've taken enough psychedelics to stun a charging rhino and in any state I'd still be able to fight off a tramp trying to take my stash.
 
Vader;10964168 said:
When he talks about unlocking the mysteries of the brain, I think he's talking about scientists undertaking research to better understand how consciousness emerges from matter, rather than individual users coming to mystical truths.
Oh right.. sorry if i've led the thread off on a mystical tangent.

I don't know if i've experienced any kind of 'ego death'. I think by using drugs i've realised that the ego in all its facets is conditioned. In all the states i've experienced I recognise that there is an awareness that is unchanging and unconditioned. That to me is Self and whether I was wrapped up in all my ego's conditioned dramas or resting in unconditioned awareness I would still knock a tramp out if he tried to nick my stash. :D

How would you define self? Vader, Ismene, anyone else?

If you want to get back on a materialistic track nevermind.
 
To me, the ego and the self are simply one and the same, the idea of partitioning identity is weird to me. When people talk about "their selfish ego" or the like, to me, they're talking about their selfish selves. Philosophy of identity is a pretty dense one, and people a lot cleverer and more dedicated than us don't agree with each other, so I doubt we're going to get to the bottom of this ;)
 
Well ego is different for everyone and constantly changing. I'm suggesting Self is awareness.. its a universal state,separate from ego and thankfully you dont have to be clever to recognise it. You're right though its a huge topic.

Edit. Also I dont think of ego as a bad thing.. Its beautiful.. but can also be painful.. I like to see it as a playground.

Arghh I'm really sorry for derailing the thread. I think Mr Nutt wasn't looking at the spiritual nature of self when he wrote that paper.
 
On MXE, and also on Salvia, I have forgetten who am I, what type of creature I am. I normally assume this is what people mean by ego death, but it's a big assumption, granted.

I haven't got there with traditional psychedelics, funnily enough.

The drug experiences I have had where I have brought useful things back have been quite varied. LSD and 4-FA have helped me to deal with anxiety. So has MXE. On AMT I have had realisations about the cycle of life, my place in things and my relationships with family. Mushrooms can bring out my creativity and a childlike freshness, but I don't know if I bring it back to daily life.

I haven't learned anything about consciousness or the workings of the brain, as such, though.
 
YellowPolkaDotHalo
I think if a drug enables you to detach from ego (which involves anxiety, depression, prejudices, negativity etc etc) and question what Self is, or even discover your true nature, then its got to be helpful..liberating even.

What did you learn from K holes Rockstar i'm interested?
The reason I love ketamine so much is it saw me through what had been a VERY dark time last year. I loved it before then, but for the effects while I was on it. Well during this dark time I bought 2g's of shardy ketamine, by the time it was finnished my anxiety was gone, and I was no longer feeling like it was the end of the world, this was still the case a week later. I bought another 7g's and by the time that was done I was able to even go over everything in my mind and not let it fuck me up. I know I was always capable of dealing with it, but ketamine made it possible to do so much quicker, it showed me what I am actually capable of dealing with.

I do agree with this though;
Vader
I've long thought that the concept of a person experiencing ego-death is self-contradictory (if the ego, i.e. you, is somehow banished from existence, who is experiencing the phenomenon?).
I have only really experianced this once with a nasty LSD trip. As in the meaning of it, an ego death. I have experianced various out-of-body bizarre trips where I have not been a human life form, but it's never really caused me any ego death, which I wouldn't see as a good thing if it did happen anyway. I am me.
 
Ego-consciousness (normal, waking consciousness) gives us our sense of self. Unfortuantely its very good at tricking us into thinking, as Vader suggested, that it is our whole self.

That it isn't our whole self is evident to me through drug-taking, which may produce a very different 'altered consciousness'. Under certain drugs we are not the same are we? We have 'altered consciousness'.

The problem seems then to become hippies et al making ludicrous value judgements (ego is bad yah) instead of working with the whole.

For me, ego gives a (false) sense of self that ignores other facets of our make-up. But ego is useful. It helps us cross the road without getting killed. It also separates us from the whole, the 'one' we are all part of. Altered consciousness may give us back the sense of connectedness to this 'whole'. But it doesn't help to put too many value judgements on the successes or failures of each type of consciousness.

Recognize both. Work with both.

Drugs are useful. So are traffic lights.
 
knockando;10964456 said:
On MXE, and also on Salvia, I have forgetten who am I, what type of creature I am.
But if a bloke came in and started taking your trousers down wouldn't you have enough "ego" to try and fight him off knock?
 
Ismene;10964495 said:
But if a bloke came in and started taking your trousers down wouldn't you have enough "ego" to try and fight him off knock?
Is this the test? The trouser preservation instinct?? ;)

It's yet to happen, issy, but if it does I'll post about it here!
 
SHM
That it isn't our whole self is evident to me through drug-taking, which may produce a very different 'altered consciousness'. Under certain drugs we are not the same are we? We have 'altered consciousness'.
I do agree with this. Ketamine you can get overly positive about everything, no worries, and tends to lend it's self to thinking your the centre of the universe. Depending what drugs I've been taking I'm likely to react very differently in the same situations.

I think LSD is the most likely one to properly strip someones ego and change them for life.
 
knockando;10964506 said:
Is this the test? The trouser preservation instinct?? ;)

It's yet to happen, issy, but if it does I'll post about it here!
Do you lose track of who you are? Even to the point that I could come in, take your stash and say "Allright knock" as I walk out of the door? ;)
 
StoneHappyMonday;10964492 said:
No you wouldn't. Salvia.
I'd like to add...the concept of ego death has not helped move any discussion forward, ever. It's black and white hippy shit, thanks Leary. My argument is that the ego may be dissolved in its ability to affect judgement, some drugs do this better than others. Salvia does this more powerfully than others (I have taken). The only other drug to come close in the Ismene trouser test is high dose Ketamine PLUS SET AND SETTING. I've had a, erm, few experiences where I've had 30-40 minutes of pure indescribable otherness.

LSD doesn't come close. This is where I see Ismenes point. You may hallucinate, it may be super vivid and weird, but you are still ego aware enough to make some logical straight mind attempt at rationalising the situation. You might make a shit attempt at rationalising it, but you could still make the attempt. At the time it happens. Not with salvia or my ketamine experiences. IME.

For the tldr crew. Take disassociatives.
 
Ismene;10964620 said:
Do you lose track of who you are? Even to the point that I could come in, take your stash and say "Allright knock" as I walk out of the door? ;)
Never been on a psyche ward Issy? Loads of brain dead geriatrics on anti-psychotics? You could easily take anything from them. The chair they are on.

Or is this different?
 
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