Pregabalin not helping symptoms of acute kratom withdrawal - WTF

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Cross post: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...atom-Detox?p=13950151&viewfull=1#post13950151

Can anyone speculate as to why Pregabalin might not be working for me as a Kratom WD aid? (Phenibut does not do much for me either, doses upto a gram or more). Tried 300mg on 2 occasions when in WD and felt very little relief and maybe some discomfort or poor sleep effects. Even combined with Kava and diazepam sublingual in small doses, didn't feel much due to tiny doses out of caution over the mix. Thought I might get a sweet potent synergy...

I will try 450mg or more soon and report back as I have now acquired some more.

I do wonder, as mentioned in my detox thread earlier, if my GABA system is just broken or abnormal - the effects people report about sociability with these drugs couldn't be further from what I experience. I start to feel like I've taken my first dose of an SSRI or a bad pill, get very uncomfortable, dilated pupils, don't want to be near others in case they see my discomfort or eyes... Also never felt relief from Kratom WD with phenibut or the synergy that is supposed to be so great.


FYI - I have a kind of chronic SAD and GAD that might be from a benzo WD syndrome. Probably related, but how?



Last point perhaps of interest is - even benzos don't deal with the SAD. If I dosed high enough I would just fall asleep but still feel the chronic anxiety effects underneath. Just tend to be able to care less due to being fucked up. I know that's more a mental health theme, but the key point is benzos are not really anxiolotic for me anymore and perhaps that is a clue also.

 

[oxlong27]

I'm in the same boat, everyone says pregabalin and gapapentin greatly reduce withdrawal but they never did a damn thing for me. I've taken 20 capsules of gabapentin and felt absolutely nothing. I honestly dont know what people see in it. Maybe it just doesn't work for us for some reason. Benzos always helped a little with withdrawal for me but be very careful, one could argue benzo addiction is far worse than kratom addiction. Anyway good luck

 

[Mike93]

They aren't a miracle cure, but they help to take the edge off which is better than nothing! At least that's what it was like in my own experience. Benzos were definitely way more helpful in my path to recovery, used only for a sleep aid and to reduce anxiety!

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Yeah I popped most of my benzos already by accident. A few per week "just to take the edge off", and a few too many on some harder to deal with binge comedowns. I mean, half my diazepam ration and 75% of my clonazepam ration... That said I did stock up on them way in advance of my detox attempt, so didn't realise how many I might be inclined to use over time. However, I will not be touching anymore until I jump off or buying any more. I have a long history with benzos and proceed with extreme caution. Got 70mg Diaz and 10mg Clonz... that's all that's allowed for the 2 weeks after jump off! tolerance or no tolerance!

Always proceed with extreme caution with benzos, always

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

I have now taken 450mg pregabalin 30 mins ago.

I'm starting to feel like I might possibly know what the deal is. I had a headache earlier... it's gone now. I had RLS all day and all yesterday, maybe gone or going....?? not sure yet. Will only know after trying to sleep. Whatever I'm feeling is very subtle, and 450mg shouldn't exactly be a subtle dose.

Could just be I needed more... but never felt any good from phenibut even in higher doses either way.

Will report back later if I can and if I remember.

 

[belfort]

Op you should buy agmatine..it really takes the edge of all kratom withdrawal symptoms

 

[belfort]

I have now taken 450mg pregabalin 30 mins ago.

I'm starting to feel like I might possibly know what the deal is. I had a headache earlier... it's gone now. I had RLS all day and all yesterday, maybe gone or going....?? not sure yet. Will only know after trying to sleep. Whatever I'm feeling is very subtle, and 450mg shouldn't exactly be a subtle dose.

Could just be I needed more... but never felt any good from phenibut even in higher doses either way.

Will report back later if I can and if I remember.

Hylands restless legs is available otc..it helps some people..RLS are nasty nasty

 

[Keif' Richards]

I have now taken 450mg pregabalin 30 mins ago.

I'm starting to feel like I might possibly know what the deal is. I had a headache earlier... it's gone now. I had RLS all day and all yesterday, maybe gone or going....?? not sure yet. Will only know after trying to sleep. Whatever I'm feeling is very subtle, and 450mg shouldn't exactly be a subtle dose.

Could just be I needed more... but never felt any good from phenibut even in higher doses either way.

Will report back later if I can and if I remember.

Do report back. 300mg Phenibut is not an extreme dose. 450mg Pregabalin (Lyrica) is not an extreme dose either. If I don't have a tolerance, 600mg is commonly my dosage, but I occasionally go higher. These drugs, as drugs go, are not particularly toxic or dangerous to the body. I have read of, seen and have partaken in massive binges of all of the Gabapentinoids and have never had any issues from the drug other than occasional myoclonus, which typically can be handled by sitting or laying down.

The biggest issue that seems to present with the use of these drugs is dependence and the resulting withdrawal syndrome, which by all accounts seems to be pretty severe. I've never experienced it, as I use these substances in a binge/relax fashion. The way you're describing the "come up" if you will, on Pregabalin sounds spot on. It comes on kind of slowly compared to a lot of other drugs. In turn, the effects tend to be pretty long-lasting as well.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Op you should buy agmatine..it really takes the edge of all kratom withdrawal symptoms

yes yes yes ! so glad you said that, I'm about to buy some from US - it's now illegal here (or unobtainable) due to some stupid "psychoactive substances bill". I can still get Rhodiola, and L Theanine, and L Tyrosine.... they fucking affect me psychoactively. Why can't I get Agmatine, Kratom or anything else just as helpful anymore. Damn cultural bias, I hate it.

Don't get me wrong there were some nasty deaths and psychological problems arising from "legal highs" in the UK. But that's pretty much because of the primary drugs of choice being illegal in the first place so people were trying to circumvent that, not because all drugs are bad and reefers make you go mad and kill people and acid makes you lose your mind and become a heroin addict after 1 dose.

Hylands restless legs is available otc..it helps some people..RLS are nasty nasty

I'm in the UK. Will look into new ideas though. Just realising how much trouble I'm in with the fact that my 2 "go to" RLS solutions are pregabalin and loperamide.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Do report back. 300mg Phenibut is not an extreme dose. 450mg Pregabalin (Lyrica) is not an extreme dose either. If I don't have a tolerance, 600mg is commonly my dosage, but I occasionally go higher. These drugs, as drugs go, are not particularly toxic or dangerous to the body. I have read of, seen and have partaken in massive binges of all of the Gabapentinoids and have never had any issues from the drug other than occasional myoclonus, which typically can be handled by sitting or laying down.

The biggest issue that seems to present with the use of these drugs is dependence and the resulting withdrawal syndrome, which by all accounts seems to be pretty severe. I've never experienced it, as I use these substances in a binge/relax fashion. The way you're describing the "come up" if you will, on Pregabalin sounds spot on. It comes on kind of slowly compared to a lot of other drugs. In turn, the effects tend to be pretty long-lasting as well.

yeah I have not enjoyed it overall, I can see how it is addictive or could have dependence. I can especially see how it can give you some nasty WDS or discontinuation syndromes. I now believe I felt quite a few adverse effects even on these low doses - see below for more details. BTW I tried doses of 1000mg+ of phenibut not 300mg.

I will probably now just wait until I'm actually off opiates before using it again. I may even have some leftover after I'm clean, so will be able to judge it on it's own then.

I might try one low dose in the daytime, just to see how slow it does actually come on. I used it in the eve 2 - 4 hours prior to sleeping both times now. EDIT: I now remember I did try a daytime dose the other day, and I didn't really feel much at 300mg. I would have to try the 450mg dose I guess.

I have now taken 450mg pregabalin 30 mins ago.

I'm starting to feel like I might possibly know what the deal is. I had a headache earlier... it's gone now. I had RLS all day and all yesterday, maybe gone or going....?? not sure yet. Will only know after trying to sleep. Whatever I'm feeling is very subtle, and 450mg shouldn't exactly be a subtle dose.

Could just be I needed more... but never felt any good from phenibut even in higher doses either way.

Will report back later if I can and if I remember.

REPORTING BACK, MADE A COUPLE OF DISCOVERIES (for myself at least)

-pregabalin fucks with sleep and gives you a disoriented hangover type feeling, especially in higher doses.
-it can potentially adversely affect opiate usage in the days after using if you are on a taper or a set dose and you are particularly disturbed by Restless Leg Syndrome. You may have to use more to get rid of restless legs.
-it does indeed seem to have a mild body buzz, but I was using it as an aid during a kratom taper and when I was on the other side of a dose and coming down and into mild WDS. The primary effect for me was not the presence of a high or a buzz of any sort, but merely the absence of discomfort.
-it also affected my attempts just to get to sleep, in the daytime in particular when I would normally be able to nap.

OK, so I think I get it now. I originally took the 300mg before bed the other day, like a couple of hours before bed. Now I remember, I woke up the next day feeling like I was spinning and I had had a bad sleep.

So after the 450mg, that effect was much stronger this morning. I hated it, especially coupled with the Kratom hangover I wake up with each day. It took a larger than normal dose of kratom to just get me moving, and improve my mood enough to allow me to feel the slight body buzz underneath the kratom from the leftovers of the pregabalin. So, I had that additional body buzz that it seems people like. I may possibly have been more social, I'm really not sure. I was pretty weirded out due to the disorientation. I went into a coffee shop and kind of stumbled around for a while asking for extras and stuff, maybe I wouldn't normally go into that much detail but can't be 100%. Overall it felt like an alcohol hangover, but without the "stewed" feeling. Without the fermented fruit feeling or the nausea/gastro issues.

The main thing that I realised was that after the 300mg earlier this week, it didn't give me much comfort from the mild WDS I was experiencing and in the following 36 hours and possibly 50, I had major restless legs and it really fucked with my kratom taper. I had to take nearly double my intended dose for the day just to quell the RLS. I also found that my sleep was really adversely affected. There's something getting in the way of getting to the sleep part, I can relax, start to drift off, but something is keeping me awake. Then there's also a kind of lying in bed awake feeling, even when you are sleeping. So I may not have entered REM sleep? Not to mention, RLS really fucks with me sleep anyway in particular.

 

[chase_in_56ace]

Gabapentenoids in general

Are well known to alleviate all discernable opiod withdrawal symptoms in high doses. The pro tip is really to start with as close to "moderate" of a dose for the first 2-3 days and only start potentiating on the 4th day while dealing with the notorious tolerance spike. High lipid healthy fats and naproxen with 4g of Gabapentin should absolutely rock you and be your max dose on days 5-6 if you're looking to buy yourself a week with this stuff...

... But with Lyrica you can easily weather opiod withdrawal "cold turkey."

At the end of a hard run sometimes I pay cash for 45 neurontin at the pharmacy if I'm out. Keep your high dose immodium.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

yeah I'm basically a scaredy cat just tapering off kratom so I'm just toying with lots of "comfort meds" during my taper to see what works. This didn't work as an aid during the taper

But I can see now how it might help during cold turkey. I expect I would use maximum 450mg in a day of pregabalin once I actually stop opiates. I've got just over 2250mg total, and getting another 750mg of smaller caps. That should be fine for a week of comfort with a little taper at the end.

Is naproxen worth getting over any other normal pain killer like paracetemol or ibuprofen? I'm not cold turkeying off a heavy opiate habit so I don't expect I will be in hard pain, just discomfort. My number one concern is restless legs, which I get quite badly for 10 days or more from experience. Then it's mood, which I can survive.

I've got quite a range of supporting meds anyway. Cannabis seems to help a fair amount with kratom taper during a step down as the high just merges into one. Rhodioloa has also been a good discovery. Next to test will be Agmatine, and memantine to help lower tolerance.

 

[Mighty-oak]

I was thinking about using Kratom to help me come off Clonazepam......Think I will steer clear of Kratom after reading this thread!

I have just ordered some L-theanine and Selank, hoping these may help.

Drink_Tea_Love_Cat ...... I am in the UK too

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Ashwaganda, magnesium, taurine and kava all will be useful for you. Rhodiola maybe too. Be sure to get real "noble" Kava root straight from the islands, not extracts or "tudei" root. Basically none of them are worth it and are all low quality. Kava is a deep deep subject to get into

I have a tonne of other stuff I've tried to use to help with anxiety, but those 4 should be a good front line with benzo WD from my experience, I'm sure others may know more in terms of standard drug treatments. Propanolol and Flumazenil are also worth a google. Flumazenil may be useful post WD, or to lower tolerance, there is a place in HK selling it but I can't list it here, just google where to buy it as it's not really used as standard in western medicine apart from as an injectable form. I haven't tried it myself yet. Taurine should be used with magnesium, and magnesium should be a bioavailable form and can be used alone if you prefer.