Kratom Precipitated withdrawal with kratom and buprenorphine - poll

[Xorkoth]

I wanted to start a thread on this, because it is my suspicion that kratom addiction cannot cause precipitated withdrawal when buprenorphine is taken. This comes from my own experience (I have taken it many times when I first start feeling the slightest bit of withdrawal), and that of my friends. One friend says he mixes them and never pays any attention to whether he is in withdrawal from kratom or not, and another friend just told me about how he was still a little high on a heavy dose of kratom extracts, and took 8mg of suboxone and did not experience any PWD at all.

My theory is that since kratom is a partial agonist like buprenorphine is, precipitated withdrawal is not an issue, since bupe will fully substitute, even though it also does kick the mitragynine/etc out of the receptors.

Please review the options and vote in the poll. The goal is to get a good qualitative data point to add to the body of knowledge on the subject. And also to discuss, of course.

 

[albatross]

I've had the same experience. Kratom to Bupe, Bupe to Kratom, adding one to the other, never had an issue.

I always imagined Bupe had a higher affinity as well as intrinsic activity which would explain why Kratom won't work for me when I'm on Bupe.

 

[negrogesic]

Yeah I've long wondered this having heard no complaints of this happening. Don't know myself since I have only little experience with buprenorphine and never in conjunction with kratom.

What's interesting as well is that kratom, as a relatively low efficacy and moderate potency partial agonist, doesn't seem to precipitate withdrawal from full agonists. I have some experience here, having taken kratom in desperate attempts when i was in withdrawal from very high doses of opioid (where kratom couldnt help no matter that dose).

Invariably it failed to help whatsoever, and while it did make me feel worse, it didn't really make the withdrawal worse (I simply felt the edgy yohimbine-like stimulant effects and no opioid withdrawal relief).

It may be that its g-protein biased agonism has a role in this. It also may be that the complex mechanism of action has a role, as simple blockade of its MOR activity doesn't entirely stop the entirety of kratoms effects.

I would imagine that very high dose kratom dependencies might behave differently.

 

[Xorkoth]

I have never heard of anyone experiencing PWD from kratom while on stronger opioids. I assumed it was because mitragynine/etc do not have affinities high enough to kick others out of the receptor like bupre does. But you can feel kratom while on other opioids so clearly it's biding to some extent.

My friend who recently reported no PWD while still feeling kratom a bit when taking bupre, was taking ~600mg of pure mitragynine in extracts every day which is really quite high, though probably not the highest anyone here has experienced.

 

[JackARoe]

My personal opinion on this without any bupe exerience is because krarotm has a ceiling, it can't really cause the opposite horrid feeling if it can't reach the level of other opiates.

Anyway I have no real knowledge on this, I mean I can see someone taking bupe too soon after heroin or fentanyl while they are very addicted and have a horrid precipitation. But kratom itself only goes so far so I can't see someone getting that sick. Precip sounds pretty bad.

I think we have aoens to go before we understand brain and receptors and such. I could be totally wrong and only have kratom experience. But I think the info we are after is does bupe work with kratom the same way as it does with other opiates or is kratom just that novel? The only info I have is someone I know on bupe that took kratom and felt nothing from the kratom. But first hand exerience will help if someone wants to give it a shot and post back.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well that makes sense, bupe blocks all other opioids, though if you take enough (or are on a low enough dose of bupe), it can break through. In that case it wouldn't cause any negative reactions because you're just adding another opiate on top of whatever bupe is there. The reason PWD happens is because the byupe kicks the other opiate out of the receptor suddenly and in the case of full agonists, you enter withdrawal because bupe isn't a full agonist so you're suddenly not receiving the opiate your body needs to feel normal.

With kratom, since it is a partial agonist, when it gets kicked out, the bupe replaces it and your body is satisfied by the bupe so you don't experience withdrawal. I don't think it has to do with how deep you are, it's more about full vs partial agonism.

 

[JackARoe]

Hmmm that makes sense too. I wonder if any other lighter opioids would work like that too. Like someone that takes say 15 mgs of hyrdrocodone a day, will the bupe just overpower or flat out cause the opposite effect. Although hydrocodone is considered a full agonist I think. But yeah I do think the answer lies with partial or full activity.

Good thread. I wish I could vote but never had bupe. The only other thing i know that overpowers is poppy tea. But I would almost bet someone very addicted to poppy tea would have a horrid precip reaction to bupe. But this is where we gather knowledge from personal reactions. We are a long way away from a scientific document or controlled tests. I do believe this could be controlled and specific enough to run tests on. I have this thing about studies ever since my FIL was in a turmeric study to find benefits but he was on a whole host of other drugs. It was not specific like this so not really a controlled turmeric study that I would believe. I think controlled studies only work with totally specific tests like this.

Someone, one of you all that take 100 grams a day (LOL) to take the day off and take bupe. Simple enough. I would try it but honestly never saw bupe. Methadone was the opioid of choice when you went for help when I was addicted. Bupe came later.

 

[Squeaky]

Hey yall..... The US Food and drug Administration is trying to screw us all again, and this time they’re f’ing with the whole world.
In 2016, the US FDA tried desperately to put Kratom into Schedule 1(with heroin). Thankfully they failed. They have tried an extensive smear campaign ever since then, trying to convince everyone that Kratom is dangerous. About two years ago they actually flew to Indonesia and tried to convince their government to outlaw the export of Kratom (also failed).

Now they’re playing hardball. The United States Food and Drug Administration has convinced the World Health Organization to hear arguments regarding a global ban on all Kratom products. If it passes, it would be an international crime to possess Kratom anywhere in the world.

I’m including the link to a site for public comments on the proposed regulation. Please spread the word. We only have until the end of August to be heard.

Stop an international kratom ban — Protect Kratom

Share your kratom testimonial as part of the FDA's comment solicitation requirements. The World Health Organization is considering the FDA's request to ban kratom. You can help stop an international kratom ban.

www.protectkratom.org

 

[Xorkoth]

Hey Squeaky, nice to see you, I have wondered from time to time how you're doing.

Some others have already posted this link, and many have filled it out. Thanks for helping to spread the word though, the more people know, the better.

 

[polarthedog]

I have had precipated withdrawal from it, but i was on about 100 grams of kratom a day for maybe a year or more.

It lasted 2 hours, and after the 2 hours i felt really high.

Now i mix the two, but i just keep the bupe dose low, like below a mg, if i just increased the dose slowly , like a little more every two hours, im sure i could take as much bupe as i wanted though

 

[polarthedog]

guess I'm the only one?

Btw when this happened, i had dissolved a 8 mg strip in some water so that i could take small amounts of it to try it out, and i stirred the water with my finger tip, and while i was stirring it, i suddenly felt massive panic and started having hot sweats and such, i had just taken it a couple hours before

 

[xaddictx]

Hmmm that makes sense too. I wonder if any other lighter opioids would work like that too. Like someone that takes say 15 mgs of hyrdrocodone a day, will the bupe just overpower or flat out cause the opposite effect. Although hydrocodone is considered a full agonist I think. But yeah I do think the answer lies with partial or full activity.

Good thread. I wish I could vote but never had bupe. The only other thing i know that overpowers is poppy tea. But I would almost bet someone very addicted to poppy tea would have a horrid precip reaction to bupe. But this is where we gather knowledge from personal reactions. We are a long way away from a scientific document or controlled tests. I do believe this could be controlled and specific enough to run tests on. I have this thing about studies ever since my FIL was in a turmeric study to find benefits but he was on a whole host of other drugs. It was not specific like this so not really a controlled turmeric study that I would believe. I think controlled studies only work with totally specific tests like this.

Someone, one of you all that take 100 grams a day (LOL) to take the day off and take bupe. Simple enough. I would try it but honestly never saw bupe. Methadone was the opioid of choice when you went for help when I was addicted. Bupe came later.

Wouldnt fentanyl overpower bupe also? Since fentanyl is so strong.

 

[polarthedog]

Wouldnt fentanyl overpower bupe also? Since fentanyl is so strong.

I would think so, I think it has triple the binding affinity of bupe

 

[xaddictx]

I would think so, I think it has triple the binding affinity of bupe

Thats what I thought. Thanx Polar

 

[polarthedog]

I think buprenorphine is 0.72 ki and fetanyl is 0.21 ki, I can’t remember where I read that

Maybe the fetanyl analogue seems are different thoughts

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

first time seeing this but the nunbers are interesting... will try to expound later.

 

[kratom_addict]

Just wanted to add my most recent experience.
I was coming off fent and using LOTS of kratom. I started with 10 grams and then another 6-7g every two hours nonstop for the first 3.5 days of fent withdrawal.
The kratom actually made a big difference and after the first ~48 hours I was relatively comfortable, as long as I kept taking more every couple hours. Took away the cold sweats and most of the RLS.

Anyway, at the 84 hour mark after my last fent dose (and only 2 hours after my last kratom, of which I was taking 70-80 grams per day for the last 3.5 days), I decided to try some bupe. I started with 1mg and after an hour I started feeling slightly better. So then I took another 1mg, and that was one hour ago now. No PWD whatsoever and I finally feel 95% normal without having to shovel all that kratom down my throat 12 times a day.

Also, in the past I've switched from kratom to bupe and back several times without experiencing any PWD, but those times were years ago so I don't remember the exact doses and timeframes. But I do remember one time I took maybe 2-4mg bupe almost immediately after my regular kratom dose and was fine.

So yeah, I don't think PWD is possible with kratom.

 

[OpiateKiller]

I combined this combo often this summer, and after using Kratom steadily for a week and then taking 8 mg Suboxone, I began to get the lightest withdrawal. I was slightly sweating and felt weird for the first hour of the transition.

I wouldn’t call it precipitated withdrawal but I definitely felt strange

 

[euphoricc]

NICE i have i a ? guys gals i have been on sublocade for 3 years and sub for 6 on sublocade now would a 7 gram or 8 gram KRATOM shot help with my back or am i blocked u think.?

 

[euphoricc]

NICE i have i a ? guys gals i have been on sublocade for 3 years and sub for 6 on sublocade now would a 7 gram or 8 gram KRATOM shot help with my back or am i blocked u think.?

i also take klonopin and gabapentin