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Possible negative consequences of a system that identifies new drugs on the market

drplatypus said:
"Why do we bother?". How is a researcher to conduct themselves where political imperatives determine their destiny?

Hey Dr. C! Yes I'm interested in writing about this, absolutely. Maybe we can thrash it out here publicly, and if anyone else wants to join in with their thoughts, feel free! .... but the question of whether researchers can/should be advocates is also worth exploring, and people have quite different views about it, and how it can be done... (personal note to you - surely this overlaps nicely with your Australia Institute project?)

decontructionist said:
Tronica:
Thank you for your warm welcome and it was nice to have your input here. Some more food for thought. I think you have been fortunate in that the research you have been involved in, despite being part of the mechanistic institutions, has been extremely important in making changes that I hope will be long lasting in WA.
[snip]
I think that microcosmic event reflect the macrocosm that we are all working in.

I have absolutely been fortunate - I have worked with some very fine people so far and in good institutions. Yes, Simon's mentioned that moment to me a few times - a defining moment for researchers, to remind us that our 'evidence' is only a small fraction of the picture for the people who have the power to affect policy action.

Simon Lenton has been presenting work relating to how to "bridge the gap between drug policy research and drug policy practice". It's worth reading in this context - pdf link here

decontructionist said:
I really need to sort out how I deal with my public academic life and my private personal life. I would love to be able to find out from others how they have achieved this, where it has been problematic, although such dialogue immediate creates a problem with such boundaries
[snip]
How can a person be a researcher and a participant at the same time?

Well I know exactly how you feel. And yes, a frank/honest public dialogue about this is problematic!

My view is that most researchers of most things are also participants in those things. Ask researchers of any topic why they are in the field they are in? Most often it is because their curiousity has been originally set off by an experience they have had, either first hand or second hand. The questions I have are: (a) how can we move on into a space where this can be openly acknowledged in the drugs field, and (b) how can we best manage the researcher/participant relationship to get the right balance of closeness and distance?
 
Having had some more time to reflect on this, perhaps it is not always the vested interests of the researchers that have the potentail negative consequences that I have been refering to. For example, I think that the paradigm that you work in Dr involves the notion that the researcher is simply objectively trying to present the data. However, others with certain vested interests can certainly use this data for their personal conquests. Every time I see Jaggard from CAAN cited in the media I cringe - “yes, the ultimate way to ensure that citizens are healthy and avoid harm is to prevent any sort of fun so lets have a totalitarian society where paternalistic individuals such as you can determine what is best for people”. Thus for example, when people like Fillmore and Chikritzhs present data to indicate that alcohol has no benefits, people like Jaggard can use this information to continue with their own personal substance use vendettas (e.g., “Well if there are no benefits then we need to get rid of this product all together). So then, what are Jaggard’s vetsed interests? Has a family member suffered untold consequences as a result of alcohol use? I don’t know, but since this isn’t made explicit I am quick to question her motives.

In terms of the researcher/participant relationship in all this, how do these vested interests fit in? My personal experience has been that each time I collect data at a particular in-patient unit I am asked if I have used drugs, to which I now authentically reply affirmatively to. In doing so, they seem to warm to me, perhaps seeing that I am not an evil genius scientist, but one of them. Interestingly, in my clinical work I have never been asked this, and if I did I would have a clinical reply (e.g., “It sounds like that’s important to you”), so in addition to figuring out which hat I have on in terms of my personal and academic life, I also see the difference between being a researcher and a clinician and need to change hats accordingly.

However, to be completely reflexive, I would need to write in my next paper, “well, I used drugs before and I don’t like the way people looked at me so now I’m going to look at how there is a thing about people who use drugs, and what’s that all about” [language for effect]. What reputable journal would publish that!! In the same vein, in being able to write a paper along the lines of this discussion, it would need to include similar information (e.g., why did I join bluelight and engage in this discussion in the first place?) I would need to make my vested interest explicit which could be highly contentious and perhaps threaten my position - I could become the laughing stock of the scientific community like Timothy Leary who ultimately reduced the level of participant/researcher hierarchy beyond the point of what was seen as reasonable. However, by not making such subjective influences explicit I think we are doing the field a disservice; however, in doing so, unlike researcher-participants in other fields of inquiry, to make explicit our subjectivity in this field has legal ramifications.
 
There’s certainly a few interesting issues raised in this thread.

It has been stated that I have a vested interest in seeing these products analysed. I don’t know that I’d say that’s the case, although as a chemist, a researcher and a HR supporter, I've certainly pushed hard for sophisticated forms of pill testing to be available to the public.

As such, one of my biggest concerns with this project was the possibility of media involvement. In particular, the media can only work within the conceptual frameworks of the dominant institutions within a society, which is why we always see drug use portrayed in certain ways (e.g., vilification of certain substances while normalising others). In doing so, true harm reduction is ultimately precluded. My concern is that media involvement with regard to the current situation will only lead to further vilification of recreational substance use.

Firstly, I’d say from experience that, to date in Australia, front line harm reduction has not been precluded by substance vilification through media portrayal. In some instances effectiveness may have been reduced by the introduction of groups preaching a more prohibitionist message, however, real harm reduction outreach groups continue to work around the country - and effectively. Indeed, medics and related teams have endorsed aspects of harm reduction and are arguably less intolerant on the whole towards HR as a concept than they once were. Such pragmatism was required to facilitate their own effectiveness, just as groups such as RaveSafe have done for years. The HR Volunteer/ Peer Helper concept is also alive and well, and considered an important component of the patron safety strategy for many events.

As a result of recent upsurges in government directed media sensationalism, what might change in the future is how these groups are presented; how they are named, identified etc. But their principle objective of intervention to reduce harm will still be preserved, and will remain the focus. Within that paradigm, dissemination of accurate information is essential, as is a non-judgemental stance.

So, while the government message to the masses appears to only condemn drug use, in fact, front line government sponsored agencies often don't censure or condem recreational use outright. As I see it, the more media vilification that occurs, the more the argument relating to the importance of harm reduction outreach is upheld.

That people are willing to ingest the products without knowledge of the effects indicates that for some the consequences of the law are seen to be greater than the consequences of possible bad reactions to these new substances.

Zeal without knowledge is the sister of folly

Let me remind you that before the advent of harm reduction, this was often the only choice available, as info on sensible use practices was either non-existent or could not be validated other than through experiment. The advent of Harm Reduction/ Minimisation intended to change that and I believe it has, significantly so.

Sure, there are many who blindly take drugs without having the foggiest idea what's in them, but if you ask users if they want to know what's in the cap/ pill they're taking, most will say yes. This is well demonstrated by the numbers of people wishing to get their pills tested whenever Enlighten was doing onsite testing. Yes, we still have a great proportion of users consuming unknown substances seemingly without fear, but the fact is that more users today are aware of possible dangers to their health, and as such, even though they may bow to temptation, they're often still interested in knowing what the risks are. Harm Reduction has reached many, and because there will always be new 'recruits' and those who've missed previous messages, it’s vitally important HR continues to be emphasised and reviewed so as to meet current and future trends.


Blindly assuming that the products in question (neorg. range) are either safe, pure or prepared in ideal environments is foolhardy, as a shiny looking website is never any guarantee. And that's all you really have. If the products had a stamp of approval from the Israeli pharmaceutical guild or equivalent body, then perhaps you could feel somewhat secure. And so, as per the above proverb, whether we classify ourselves as responsible users, medical practitioners, or professionals/academics working in the field of drug use, we should never stoop to accepting that silence is preferable over information. While most of us feel it's impossible to credibly influence proposed legislative changes or prohibitionist idealism, I believe we all have a moral duty to, at least try to reduce harm through providing credible knowledge and opportunity for discourse.

In relation to the thread title, it's also interesting to note that while some disagreement has been voiced in regards to making public the analytical results of the neorg. products, there were few if any objections raised by users when pill testing services were proposed and this proposal presented to authorities. Such a service would have meant these and similar products would have been analysed the moment they had surfaced, thereby servicing the drug using community, medical workers and LE, as all test results under such a scheme would be made public. If ecstasydata.org could comprehensively analyse each and every tablet, then this information would also be available to authorities.

So, what's the difference between the outcomes of the neorg. test results, and those from a hypothetical Enlighten or Ecstasydata model where results from sophisticated analytical methods would effectively be shared between all the above mentioned departments?


As the introduction of new compounds is expected to increase dramatically over coming years, the distinction between good drugs bad drugs will not be as black and white. There’s almost a ‘semantical void’ between indications for drug use/treatment. At one end we have pharmaceutical therapy, and the other, abuse. In-between recreational use and prescribed use there’s little (in a title) to further define the self perceived social, medical or psychologically basis for people using drugs. To expand on this will be essential in order to change the mindset of those currently opposed to any and all non-prescribed drug use.

Portraying psychoactive drugs as health products may seem on the surface as a deceptive ploy, yet I believe this term is quite appropriate if the description is not misleading, and the profiles of the substances are well known and regarded as relatively safe, as is done with health products.


So, I see current media vilification of recreational (for want of a better word) substances as being essential in shifting the paradigm towards a more acceptable basis for use of these drugs. As indicated, this won’t include any and all substances, but instead provide a framework for the introduction of new legislative classes of drug as was done in New Zealand. However, unlike NZ, I believe when this occurs in Australia it will inevitably involve approval bodies such as the TGA together with medical, legal and sociological advisors. There’s not a medical doctor out there that wouldn’t regularly see the impact of alcohol on health and wellbeing. Even, if for many, there’s a sharp moral objection to normalizing recreational drug use, few can argue that a safer, legal alternative is not desirable.

While some may see this thought as too simplistic, I’m convinced that in identifying these and similar products, the process of reform will be hastened. Will this involve further scheduling as a consequence? Or media sensationalism? Undoubtedly. But any alternative to increasing awareness among the general population, is, IMO, doomed to failure, and will, from legal, social and health perspectives, probably also involve higher numbers of user casualties.


As I’ve said before, the moment reform is on the drawing board, many academics will come out of their respective department forced closets. deconstructionist’s own dilemma of maintaining professional – personal segregation is a perfect example of how others have had to move in order to retain their position. The present problem of many therefore, is how to retain credibility within current academic directives while expressing personal opinions.

To paraphrase Graham Chapman; Get it out in the open, I know I have....
 
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Hi all,

First let me say that there is some very high grade English going on here, and while I am educated to a "degree with honours" level, I still had to read a few sentences twice to get it right. Half the names dropped I have never heard of, I do not regularly read journals, and to tell the truth most of what has been said is pretty much over my head. Having said that, I apologise if my input is largely uninformed, completely off topic, or when it comes down to it, just useless. I think, however, that I've followed what’s going on more or less accurately. Note also that most of what I am writing is quite bias and objective.

As far as I can tell (I might be wrong) no-one who has posted thus far is a current and avid user of illicit drugs and/or has an active interest in legal/prescription alternatives with the motivation of consumption over research.

I am, and so I feel I should contribute.

My personal experience mixing within the social circles of users has developed over the last few years, and this includes close contact to several different archetypes. One in particular I wish to point out because it’s essentially the black sheep of the user community. This facet being pretty much the stereotypical user in the eyes of the concerned community: A person without morals, money, intelligence, and whose sole motivation is to get wired because they have so much pent up hate or loneliness. This type of user is generally involved in drugs over a much longer period of time than 85% of users, and is forced to continually return to it for addictive and/or self-destructive reasons. Sadly, stereotypes exist for a reason. I have seen plenty of these people in my time.

As dubious as drug information leaflets currently are (I’ve read a few and they never really seem to be quite accurate), drugs generally are bad for you and everyone knows it. Some are more so than others, and all for different reasons ranging from short and long term damage, to overdose dangers and addiction. Just let me repeat myself here: Everyone knows it. I haven’t met a single user to date who didn’t know they were frying their brain from their use. That absolutely includes the self-destructive stereotypes. This is what is generally misunderstood because the people who find themselves on 5-6 ambulance rides a year are not doing this because they aren’t aware of what drugs can do to you, it’s because they’d do it anyway. Some people are just out to mess themselves up and really don’t care about the consequences even though they are quite aware of what these are.

Which brings me to my point:

I think that, while inherently flawed because of its knife edge position regarding the law, things like pill testing for the sake of harm reduction and research is a marvellous thing. The information can be used to fill so many gaps in the picture of the drug world that the general public has and put to so much good use.

However, I don’t recommend defending the point that there is a ‘solution’ to the drug problem and the casualties it ensues. This debate appears to be over this very point: how can you stop everyone who takes drugs from screwing themselves royally? Harm reduction through identification of new drugs on the streets? How can this really work with the archetype described above? It simply can’t. These people need a different kind of help. One that involves sitting down and untangling their brain with a guidance councillor or something.

Even the third option of regulating sales of legally produced high’s can never truly work because there will always be that one person who will still take too many. Not because they don’t know what will happen, but because they *do* know what will happen. Harm reduction doesn’t work on people who’s sole motivation for taking drugs is to harm themselves.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that great things can come of these identification systems for the drug community. It ensures that it’s not the '1 ecstasy pill in a blue moon' user who hits the ambulance. Keep your feet on the ground though and realise that not everyone can be saved and the problem will always be.

I once again apologise if what I’ve said has no real bearing.

-Numeron
 
^ Having accurate information about drugs is necessary for effective harm reduction, but not sufficient.

A harm reduction approach can be successful even with those catching 5-6 ambos a year - it's just not going to be an approach based in providing information alone.

And back to the original topic - yes it is worth publishing data about the contents of neodoves etc - but it's also worth being aware of how that data might be used/portrayed, and having strategies around that too.
 
Numeron, I'm glad you didn't let some of the theory/academic talk stop you from posting. The gist of your post is an important point, which as you say, seems to be lost on many of those who create 'drug prevention interventions'.

Most drug users know the dangers, at least in the common drugs they are using. There is even lots of research which supports this idea, eg. Gamma, A., Jerome, L., Liechti, M. E., & Sumnall, H. R. (2005). Is ecstasy perceived to be safe? A critical survey. Drug and Alcohol Dependence, 77, 185-193. - PM me for fulltext if you want to read it...

The 'information' based interventions, like the one on 'ice' in another thread here, are based on the assumption that users don't know the risks, and if they did, they would surely stop using the drug. It shows a lack of understanding of the situation, and I think it is patronising to drug users too.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that great things can come of these identification systems for the drug community. It ensures that it’s not the '1 ecstasy pill in a blue moon' user who hits the ambulance. Keep your feet on the ground though and realise that not everyone can be saved and the problem will always be.

I'm certainly of the opinion that "drugs are here to stay" (one of the tenants of the harm reduction approach). It's true that not everyone can be saved, and that needn't be our goal. The goal, for me anyway, is to make it easier for people to come to less harm overall - to enable them. For those people who are motivated towards self harm, you are right that they need more assistance to deal with that, with drug use undoubtedly being only one way to self-harm, the core desire of self-hatred that goes along with this kind of drug use needs to be the focus of intervention.

Phase_dancer... lots of good ideas and interesting points in your post. Food for thought for me!
 
Well a lot has happened over the past 24 hours. Despite being extremely busy, I have been unable to avoid an insatiable desire to follow this intriguing story. What I am most amazed by is the rate at which this information has spread worldwide and the sheer amount of internet ‘chatter’ that has followed. I think p_d and the dr can be commended in the impact of the report, which surely rivals that of any prestigious journal.

So in coming back to my original position of devils advocate, what will happen now? What are the positives and negatives that shall follow? Only time will tell, but I think this is going to be a perfect case to watch in terms of such unintended effects. Such effects cannot be considered those confined to these products, but the effects on the legal market/scene world wide.

At this stage, I think that people’s reactions have been mixed. They have ranged from the initial shell shock, with some stating they will now flush these down the toilet, to those who are trying to place bulk orders with the company in anticipation of the end. I believe that the primary point that can be taken here is that the law has systemic effects and these cannot be anticipated. My favourite quote throughout all of this thus far has been by Where Wolf?

The real problem here is that pure MDXX used (somewhat) responsibly is a hell of a lot safer than this weirdass shit, which would never have been developed if not for earlier prohibitions. These pills are the Frankenstein product of the War on Drugs.

As per Tronicas last post, many people will continue to use these products until the end, despite this information. Most people know that their fun comes at a price – there is always a risk. Nonetheless, the positive effect might be considered in terms of those who will now avoid these substances in that they can make a rationale and informed decision; however, what will they use instead and is the relative harm going to be less or greater, and will there simply be more harmful products produced in place of the these?

If the quote by ‘Where wolf?’ is anything to go by (and I believe that it is), the end of this product will simply mean the beginning of a new perhaps more dangerous product, in the same way this product has been the result of the prohibition of less dangerous products.
 
Who says pure MDXX is that safe.. you don't know the purity.

Last stuff I tried was very good but lab tested at 75% purity after synth, who has* studied byproducts
 
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Splatt said:
Who says pure MDXX is that safe.. you don't know the purity.

Last stuff I tried was very good but lab tested at 75% purity after synth, who was studied byproducts

Yes, you don’t know the purity of MDxx because of the prohibition of the substance. In turn, these new products emerge to avoid the said prohibition. Now, given that they *might* be manufactured and distributed without the said impurities, are these safer than MDxx? If they are not, then an absence of the original prohibition would have meant that perhaps you would have been ordering pure MDxx, with few toxicological issues when used n moderation than these products. If they are safe, then they will be cracked down upon, only for a *possibly* worse substance to come along.

Moral of this lose-lose story:
1) People will use drugs
2) For some the legal consequences are perceived to be more harmful than the pharmacology of the substances themselves (hence neo)
3) Prohibition has failed once again
 
decontructionist said:
Nonetheless, the positive effect might be considered in terms of those who will now avoid these substances in that they can make a rationale and informed decision; however, what will they use instead and is the relative harm going to be less or greater, and will there simply be more harmful products produced in place of the these?

If only drug policy was actually modelled on only one measure - reducing drug-related harms experienced *overall*.

I have a book on my bookshelf called Drug War Heresies: Learning from Other Vices, Times, and Places.

It puts forward a pretty convincing argument for this approach. With this idea, even if more people were using a drug, if they were doing so with (on average) less harm per use or per person, this may be preferable.

Because policy makers often view drugs in isolation, they may see a reduction in use of a particular drug as some kind of win for their interventions. Firstly, reduction in use may not equal overall reduction in harm, and secondly, we have to consider the whole picture - what about other drugs and their harms? Eg. if Neos were more known, and half of ecstasy users stopped using ecstasy and took up Neos (not going to happen, but you get the picture), the effect of this on drug-related harms experienced is complex. Yet politicians might decide they had a win if they see ecstasy rates decline, when really, prohibition has contributed to an arguably more dangerous situation, where people are using drugs that need a lot more research!

I think we saw this a bit with the 'heroin drought' and the uptake of methamphetamines.
 
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