Opioids poppy tea withdrawl

[QuasiStoned]

^^^
He is using 15 pods a day for maintenance, he says he uses 20+ to get high, so he could be consuming more than 90mg.

Also, pods are not illegal.

Yes they are, but it simply isn't enforced.

Another thing I would like to make known is that the effects of poppy tea last ridiculously long, much longer than plain ol' morphine. So it may be true that the OP is ingesting about 90 mg per day, but the long duration makes the withdrawals and addiction that much worse. I have been physically addicted to poppy tea for a year now and it takes me AT LEAST 24 hours to start to feel withdrawals, 48 hours to reach full withdrawal. Poppy pod withdrawals do not go by the traditional 3 day rule, I have personally found (as have many others) that the withdrawals last a full week before you really feel relief. It is the long duration that really fucks you over.

I really think that if you dose constantly with higher dosages that the morphine can really build up in your system over time.

 

[Virtuoso]

^^^
He is using 15 pods a day for maintenance, he says he uses 20+ to get high, so he could be consuming more than 90mg.


Yes they are, but it simply isn't enforced.

Another thing I would like to make known is that the effects of poppy tea last ridiculously long, much longer than plain ol' morphine. So it may be true that the OP is ingesting about 90 mg per day, but the long duration makes the withdrawals and addiction that much worse. I have been physically addicted to poppy tea for a year now and it takes me AT LEAST 24 hours to start to feel withdrawals, 48 hours to reach full withdrawal. Poppy pod withdrawals do not go by the traditional 3 day rule, I have personally found (as have many others) that the withdrawals last a full week before you really feel relief. It is the long duration that really fucks you over.

I really think that if you dose constantly with higher dosages that the morphine can really build up in your system over time.

Morphine and heroin withdrawal also takes about 24 hours to kick in, and usually lasts a week. Oxy is the only thing that people are able to get over within about 3 days.

 

[QuasiStoned]

All I know is if you take an MSContin with no tolerance you will be high for about 8 hours, give or take. If you drink some poppy tea with no tolerance, you will be high all day long. And wake up the next morning high.

When I first started using pods the duration was incredible, I would drink it at night and be high all day at work the next day. I would drink more that night and the effects would be even stronger because I still had some morphine in me from the day before. Read around, there is a phenomenon of extremely long duration with poppy tea that nobody can easily explain. Some think it could be the cocktail of various alkaloids, but oddly enough opium taken orally still only lasts about 8 hours, it's something in the pods *shrug*

All I am saying is that the withdrawals from poppy tea have a longer duration than H or pure morpine, they are quite the bastards in that respect.

 

[Virtuoso]

I agree, but at the dose the OP is taking them, there is absolutely no reason to start on any sort of maintenance program using bupe or methadone.

If you had asked the question, I would have offered a different answer. With the OP's situation, to suggest a maintenance program is using the proverbial cannon to kill a fly. What pisses me off is when people like daddysgone, who are clearly quite ignorant on this issue, think they know more than me and are so arrogant as to suggest that I stop posting in the thread. This area is my expertise! I went to fucking school for 8 years to help people with addiction problems! The fact that someone shoots up in their parent's bathroom doesn't make them qualified to give advice, but I put up with them even when they are wrong (unless the advice they give increases potential harm), but to have some ignorant twit lecture to me on addiction is so ridiculous there are not words to describe it.

Also, on pods' legality: they are only illegal if a) they are in the form of poppy straw, or b) are sold for consumption. If sold for floral arrangements, they are perfectly legal. This is the reason they are so widely available, and why poppy farmers, if selling the pods, will almost never get prosecuted.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

No it wouldn't. Poppy tea is almost excactly what methadone/bupe are for. Make no mistake, poppy tea addiction is MORPHINE addiction. But the withdrawals can be way more drawn out, esp if you are eating the grounds. Don't downplay his MORPHINE addiction. (which can be CLOSELY compared to a heroin addiction)

And don't avoid benzos. If you can get your hands on some, they can be INDISPENSIBLE for your kick. Just don't take them for longer than maybe 10 days.

Oral morphine is a lot easier to kick than a seasoned heroin habit.

No one's trying to "down play" it, we're just saying buprenorphine or methadone might be a step in the wrong direction from PPT.

The OP has stated they are not interested in BMT or MMT, so I won't reply with that.

I would focus on diphenhydramine hcl, doxylamine succinate, and your favorite benzos. Utilize sex, exercise, eating, showers, and whatever else you have to make yourself feel better when needed.

 

[Tchort]

I agree, but at the dose the OP is taking them, there is absolutely no reason to start on any sort of maintenance program using bupe or methadone.

If you had asked the question, I would have offered a different answer. With the OP's situation, to suggest a maintenance program is using the proverbial cannon to kill a fly. What pisses me off is when people like daddysgone, who are clearly quite ignorant on this issue, think they know more than me and are so arrogant as to suggest that I stop posting in the thread. This area is my expertise! I went to fucking school for 8 years to help people with addiction problems! The fact that someone shoots up in their parent's bathroom doesn't make them qualified to give advice, but I put up with them even when they are wrong (unless the advice they give increases potential harm), but to have some ignorant twit lecture to me on addiction is so ridiculous there are not words to describe it.

Also, on pods' legality: they are only illegal if a) they are in the form of poppy straw, or b) are sold for consumption. If sold for floral arrangements, they are perfectly legal. This is the reason they are so widely available, and why poppy farmers, if selling the pods, will almost never get prosecuted.

You are posting a lot of innaccurate information.

-Withdrawal from Morphine or Heroin kicks in much sooner than 24 hours from the last dose in most addicts.

-Oxycodone withdrawal syndrome is closer to Morphine/Heroin in duration. Hydromorphone and Fentanyl are closer to the 3 day description.

-Poppy Straw is a Schedule II substance in the USA according to the Controlled Substances Act. Lack of enforcement does not mean legal.

A good article on the subject:

http://www.wesjones.com/pollan1.htm

-Misrepresenting opinion as fact with regards to ORT programs isn't going to fly in a Harm Reduction oriented community. As said in another thread with similar misrepresentations:

Being against maintenance programs is fine if thats your opinion.

It is inaccurate to compare opiate replacement therapy with addiction. The differences between the two are legion; MMT/BMT patients resemble opioid dependant pain patients more than addicts.

Telling people Methadone or Buprenorphine maintenance is no better or different than their current addiction is simply not true. So is the advice is other threads that 'there is no need or benefit' for certain opioid addicts to pursue MMT/BMT (the benefits of opiate replacement therapy are the same for the most hardened street Heroin addict, poppy pod addicts, Codeine addicts, etc).

-There is no way to know the dose the OP or anyone is using when poppy straw extracts are being consumed. Various studies carried out over the last 60 years put the "average alkaloid content" at considerably different levels: even when talking about the same regional poppies. You cannot talk about the OP's use level because neither you nor anyone else actually knows how much Morphine he is consuming every day.

 

[Virtuoso]

You are posting a lot of innaccurate information.

-Withdrawal from Morphine or Heroin kicks in much sooner than 24 hours from the last dose in most addicts.

It starts anywhere from 8-24 hours after last ingestion, but the worst doesn't begin for about 24-36 hours. For the first 24 hours or so, the withdrawal is usually considered pretty mild, aside from the general malaise.

-Oxycodone withdrawal syndrome is closer to Morphine/Heroin in duration. Hydromorphone and Fentanyl are closer to the 3 day description.

I have never used heroin personally, but I have withdrawn from oxycodone 4 or 5 times. After 4 days there were few withdrawal effects for me.

-Poppy Straw is a Schedule II substance in the USA according to the Controlled Substances Act. Lack of enforcement does not mean legal.

I said this. Pods are legal, straw is not. You don't buy straw online, you buy perfectly legal pods and perform the illegal act of converting it to straw.

-Misrepresenting opinion as fact with regards to ORT programs isn't going to fly in a Harm Reduction oriented community. As said in another thread with similar misrepresentations:

What exactly am I misrepresenting? I am merely reporting from my experience working with addicts in a drug rehabilitation center, and my education in this exact area. As far as getting opioid replacement therapy, I doubt you would find any sort of provider that would give you ORT for a relatively low dose of poppy tea - without you lying to him/her about it. As far as misrepresenting "opinion as fact" all I can offer is a professional opinion regarding the use of ORT for the OP. Besides, what is everyone else doing? Statements like "ORT was made for poppy tea" and the like are the exact same thing, minus any actual widespread clinical experience. The difference is, of course, they agree with you. This somehow makes it OK.

-There is no way to know the dose the OP or anyone is using when poppy straw extracts are being consumed. Various studies carried out over the last 60 years put the "average alkaloid content" at considerably different levels: even when talking about the same regional poppies. You cannot talk about the OP's use level because neither you nor anyone else actually knows how much Morphine he is consuming every day.

This is why I took the range of percent morphine by weight reported by Merck, and estimated at the extreme high end. While there is no way to get the exact dose, I would guess you should be able to get within about 30%. Claiming that there is absolutely no way to know even the approximate dose just isn't realistic.

This kind of seems like you are calling me out for doing something that others do on this forum every single day, even though I actually have the requisite knowledge to form educated opinions on the subject; as I have learned in the last few days, however, the fact that I am more than some dude on the internet with an addiction and an audience is threatening to some people. Thanks for letting me know to cut my losses and move along though. No one seems to listen anyway, and since this website seems to exist more to fulfill the egos of moderators than any actual harm reduction function it does little good to share the knowledge I have studied so hard to gain.

Peace guys, have fun.

 

[TippyCup4Life]

Virtuoso. I think you are wrong about this. It could be that pods did not hit you the same way OR the pods you got were consistently weak(probably the latter?) I would rather go off a 160mg+ OC habit cold turkey than the amount of pods he is doing(assuming mid grade potency)...and I know that from my own experience. The GI agony alone from pods is humbling, beg for mercy from lord jesus, need a cholera bed kind of hell.
Granted most pod habits, because the vile nature of the addiction limits doses(and the work involved), don't need that heavy-handed approach. Kratom is a miracle here(lope,doxy, ect. too)
People react so differently too of course, which may be why you feel as you do. I had one friend who would have theworks w/ds from OC after one evening of use, with absolutely minimal history, no tolerance, and no addictions to anything. He was a rare case. On the other end you may handle pods far better. BUT both cases are on far ends of the spectrum. I lie in the middle I can say from experience, and the OP probably does too.
Respect mother pod, oh lordy respect her, praise jezzus and ebikinizer...i get PTSD thinking about it.
Respect to OP and Virtuoso

 

[pieeyedpiper]

first off I want to thank everyone who has offered his or her advice on this difficult matter. I will kindly ask the moderator and all others who have insulted virtuoso to stop doing so. Can any of you honestly say thay you have his experience studying and working in the field of drub rehabilitation? Have any of you actually bothered to back up your opinions with sound research or are most of you relying on internet searches and and personal experience. Virtuoso, I appreciate all of your information please don't let anyone bully you out of lending a helping hand. And Moderator and others please don't think I'm attacking you. I very much appreciate the threads that were sent to me and I appreciate your opinions, but I do think you have been somewhat disrespectful. Let's try to respectfully disagree from here on in. Just for the record pods do not last me 24hrs as someone suggested they do. Maybe that's true for some but I am usually naucious with a layer of sweat on my neck when I wake up and that's after drinking a weaker nightly dose of 5-7 pods. The pods seem to be lasting me as long as oxys did when they were prescribed after my surgery. I am now going to do some research on kratom. I have read quite a bit about tramadol since virtuoso suggested it. The possibility of sezures frightens me but it seems most cases have been a result of either od's or mixing with other meds. It seems like mixing tramadol with benzos might be a bad idea. I read a number of sezure reports caused by this. I would like to hear opinions on combining the 2 if anyone has knowledge or experience with that. I will probably be starting my taper soon I am going to talk to an addiction specialist shrink tomorrow and I will consider a supervised taper if he deems necessary. I will post his take on the issue at hand when I get it. I would like to keep this thread open throughout my taper as I think that regardless of which route I take recording my experience here would serve a purpose for the sake of harm reduction. thanks to everyone again who tried to help me out.

 

[daddysgone]

Virtuoso...you remind me of a child plugging his ears and yelling " LA LA LA LA LA" as adults and those that know better, are trying to correct you. The amount of DEAD WRONG information you are spouting here is embarassing at the least, and dangerous at the worst.
Ignorance is forgivable. Stubbornly clinging to your ignorance after youve been corrected by nearly everyone is far less forgivable.
So lets try this one more time. Poppy pods are illegal. Youve already admitted to the fact that poppy straw is illegal....well guess what champ? dried poppy pods ARE Poppy straw.

Now on to your oversimplistic explanation of how much morphine is consumed in poppy tea. Do some research on the modulatory effects on the other alkaloids contained in poppy pods. Your infant-like mind is likely thinking that the other alkaloids are present in minute quantities and therefore cant have any significant effect. You are thus reasoning that morphine is the only alkaloid that produces any real effect. You then go on to conclude that consuming 90mg worth of morphine from pods would have nearly identical effects to consuming 90mg worth of isolated morphine. This couldnt be further from the truth. As I suggested, do some research on the modulatory effect of these minor alkaloids and the enzyme manipulation that results.
Consider the difference between effects of smoking marijuana and smoking pure THC. The other chemicals in marijuana are alleged to be inactive. But anyone that has smoked both marijuana and isolated THC can tell you that the effects are worlds apart.

Lastly, dont try to correct people when youre own knowledge of this subject is so faulty.

edit: so just to clarify virtuoso: EVERYONE in this thread, including the moderators who have corrected you, are wrong..and you are right? While i did appreciate your desperate attempt to save face by acknowledging that poppy straw was indeed illegal, ultimately you ended up revealing your abortion of knowledge by failing to recognize that DRIED POPPY PODS ARE POPPY STRAW. But let me guess, you are actually so fucking dumb as to think that its perfectly legal to buy dried pods, but once you place them in a blender...they become schedule II.

So again....stop posting in this thread. You humiliate yourself and do damage to others.

and one more thing: Tchort who actually DOES know what he is talking about, systematically and effectively refuted nearly every piece of absurd, opinionated bullshit that you lamely attempted to present as fact. The irony of your posts are too much to bear. YOU are laughably guilty of spreading the very misinformation that you are falsely accusing others of.

 

[pieeyedpiper]

daddysgone i think you should be embarrassed, you have done nothing but attack virtuoso for your own egomanical vendetta. I hope it feels exhilerating to be right, and never mind the fact that this is supposed to be about harm reduction and you have nothing to offer the community. Oh and who gives a crap whether or not they are technically legal. People with dried floral arrangements don't get prosecuted. People with a blender and a bag full of straw do. Why don't you go smell your own farts and post a thread on how cool it is to be a cyber bully.

 

[Tchort]

I appreciate the response. While there are insults in this thread, I don't think I've insulted you (and if it is taken that way I apologize- not my intention). Just to be clear, I moderate the Drugs In The Media subforum. I have no responsibilities here in OD; I have the same power as you do.

This kind of seems like you are calling me out for doing something that others do on this forum every single day, even though I actually have the requisite knowledge to form educated opinions on the subject; as I have learned in the last few days, however, the fact that I am more than some dude on the internet with an addiction and an audience is threatening to some people. Thanks for letting me know to cut my losses and move along though. No one seems to listen anyway, and since this website seems to exist more to fulfill the egos of moderators than any actual harm reduction function it does little good to share the knowledge I have studied so hard to gain.

The problem is you are just some dude on the internet, who anonymously posts "I have x qualifications, went to school for x years, have x degrees, etc". While this may all indeed be true, it does not make your posts exempt from scrutiny.

In fact, I think it makes your posts the perfect ones to scrutinize because you claim the qualifications of an expert as recognized by society- and if posts made by you have questionable information, it makes them potentially harmful depending on the content. People like to listen to experts, even self-proclaimed experts, more than they do regular people.

The purpose of this website is very clear, and it contains a plethora of Harm Reduction knowledge gained through the combined years of experience and education of all of its members: the bulk of which is completely accurate with infinite capability to help drug users, addicts and friends/family of drug users/addicts.

I would be disappointed if you do indeed move on because a few people disagree with you in various threads, or refuse to respect you based solely on your claim of being an expert in addiction.

This is why I took the range of percent morphine by weight reported by Merck, and estimated at the extreme high end. While there is no way to get the exact dose, I would guess you should be able to get within about 30%. Claiming that there is absolutely no way to know even the approximate dose just isn't realistic.

Various sources and studies come to different conclusions. This makes it impossible to know which is correct given the overall prestige of those doing the research (universities, government agencies, etc). Plus, looking at subjective experience reports the numbers don't add up. The Morphine content estimated for poppy straw generally comes out to be far too low to explain the effects reported by different people (who have experience with various opioids, including pharmaceutical Morphine).

Because of that I don't think it is possible to get anywhere near a rough guess. A shot in the dark is possible, but I don't think it can be backed up sufficiently.

first off I want to thank everyone who has offered his or her advice on this difficult matter. I will kindly ask the moderator and all others who have insulted virtuoso to stop doing so. Can any of you honestly say thay you have his experience studying and working in the field of drub rehabilitation? Have any of you actually bothered to back up your opinions with sound research or are most of you relying on internet searches and and personal experience. Virtuoso, I appreciate all of your information please don't let anyone bully you out of lending a helping hand. And Moderator and others please don't think I'm attacking you. I very much appreciate the threads that were sent to me and I appreciate your opinions, but I do think you have been somewhat disrespectful. Let's try to respectfully disagree from here on in. Just for the record pods do not last me 24hrs as someone suggested they do. Maybe that's true for some but I am usually naucious with a layer of sweat on my neck when I wake up and that's after drinking a weaker nightly dose of 5-7 pods. The pods seem to be lasting me as long as oxys did when they were prescribed after my surgery. I am now going to do some research on kratom. I have read quite a bit about tramadol since virtuoso suggested it. The possibility of sezures frightens me but it seems most cases have been a result of either od's or mixing with other meds. It seems like mixing tramadol with benzos might be a bad idea. I read a number of sezure reports caused by this. I would like to hear opinions on combining the 2 if anyone has knowledge or experience with that. I will probably be starting my taper soon I am going to talk to an addiction specialist shrink tomorrow and I will consider a supervised taper if he deems necessary. I will post his take on the issue at hand when I get it. I would like to keep this thread open throughout my taper as I think that regardless of which route I take recording my experience here would serve a purpose for the sake of harm reduction. thanks to everyone again who tried to help me out.

If you do go with some kind of Tramadol taper, please stick to the dose guidelines. If you do a search for Tramadol related posts, you'll see just how many people who post on BL have had seizures from taking too much Tramadol (it's a lot of people). Unfortunately many of them knew beforehand the seizure risk and the highest safe dosage, and did it anyway. While seizures are never good, that is probably the last thing you'd need while going through detox.

Report back when you start the process and what's going on. I don't think I've seen anyone document kicking pods?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

We are all being really picky about the way we are talking about, in essence, the same thing.

I understand a lot of you who say that Virtuoso is incorrect in a few facts. I agree with you on some of them, but I think we should all be careful in making blanketed statements, because what is true for you, or your friend, etc, is not necessarily true for everyone as well.

With this being said, let's all respect ourselves here and try to post kindly. Discussion is better facilitated when the atmosphere is friendly and helpful towards learning.

 

[dorkchop]

I successfully tapered and dropped a PPT habit. I maxed out at 40 per day, in 2 doses of 20 each. Always one first thing in the morning and one after work, around 6pm or so. My tapering schedule was this:

-initial reduction to 15 pods per dose

-reduce dose by one pod each day

-when i was down to 8 or 7 per dose (can't quite remember) i "coasted" there for a few days

-when I was down to just 1 per dose, again i stayed there for 3 days, but that was mainly because life obligations prevented me from hitting "zero day" and the inevitable WD's

-I got through the WD's with plenty of Immodium AD, protein shakes, multivitamins, hot baths (sometimes like 10 per day!) mild exercise (my method was forcing myself to do as many jumping jacks as I could). Melatonin helped a little with the insomnia, as did whiskey.

I hope this helps. It was pretty tough, but I did it. I am on week 7 of being PPT-free

oh and I quit a year-long IV H addiction CT several years ago, so I am no stranger to WD's. While the PPT WD's were agonizing, I am confident that tapering minimized the effects as much as possible for me.

 

[daddysgone]

I, for my part, will apologize for the insults against virtuoso. I'll admit that i took it too far.
However, I will say that my response was largely due to his mocking me, and several others in this thread, characterizing us as "kids who shoot up in their parents' bathrooms". I am 30 years old and am not an addict. This especially bothered me since he was then using his degree and exerience as evidence that his ideas were facts, when in fact, they are anything but.

and a note to virtuoso: What Tchort mentioned is 100% true. Because u have characterized yourself as an "expert", you need to be especially careful about what you post here. People are more likely to take your word as gospel due to the manner in which youve characterized your expertise. Thus, it becomes extremely important that you post ACCURATE information. Thank you.

 

[CretiNation]

Pods weigh on average like 2.5 grams a piece, half of which are seeds which are discarded. Morphine content per pod is .15-.5% according to Merck. 15 pods a day is 28.125-93.75mg of oral morphine per day, depending on potency. Equivalent to 14-46.5mg of oxy per day. Call it what you want, but that is not a huge habit by any stretch.

This entire paragraph should be disregarded from this forum forever. Telling somebody their habit is not that bad when you really have no idea WHAT the variables* are in the OP's case does not help in any way. i agree with your numbers as far as the morphine content of dried poppy capsules, but NOT with the way you are using them (Tchort: after witnessing the potential harm of throwin' these numbers around i TOTALLY understand your frustration with 'em!).

*by variables i mean pod weight, prep tech, individual chemistry, etc...

First of all, how do you know how much OP's pods weigh? I have had pods ranging from 2g - 7g (without seeds). here, i'll illustrate how ridiculous it is to tell somebody, over the internet nonetheless, how much morphine he/she takes daily based on "15 poppy pods."

if his/her pods are feather weights (2.5g) they have, like you said, anywhere between 28mg - 94mg morphine. if they are heavy weights (7g) they have between 158mg - 525mg morphine. so, as far as anybody knows, the OP is using anywhere from 28mg - 525mg morphine per day. or, it could be even less or more than that; the point is nobody knows!

and regarding harm reduction it is not only completely impractical to attempt to quantify the OP's daily morphine dose (not to mention qualify his/her habit) but potentially dangerous!

Tchort explained the pitfalls of such speculation far better in another thread...

HOWEVER back on topic, i suggest tapering. unless of course you can somehow start bupe maintenance or detox. but since you said that isn't an option i'd heed the advice and use the great information on tapering in this thread. also, as people have been saying, exercise daily, eat healthy, drink tons of h2o and find something to keep your hands busy!

edit:

This kind of seems like you are calling me out for doing something that others do on this forum every single day,

i think the reason you're being called out on it is because you're actually using the numbers to judge somebody's habit... there's nothing wrong with discussion or individual hypotheses but when you start telling someone their habit isn't that serious, when there's a good chance it is, the only outcomes are not helpful ones by any means.

 

[OverDriven]

Virtuoso has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. He is basing is opinion on numbers found in books. The numbers were from a sample of pods in one experiment. Let me tell you, there are some STRONG pods out there these days. Strong enough that I would bet that 5 of the large pods from certain vendors would OD a non tolerant person. I have been using pods for years every single day. I have my habit down to 2-3 pods a day right now, and I can't even feel 40mg oxy. 15-20 pods per day is a LARGE amount if they are strong pods.

All I can tell you about pod withdrawal is this...be prepared for depression like you have never experienced before. Pod withdrawal creates a mind bending sense of hopeless depression and impending doom. Tramadol is a GOD send for this. Taper down to a few pods a day, then jump to 250-300mg tramadol. You may feel a few bumps here, but it's better than cold turkey. Then taper down from that. It really does make for a soft landing, and takes away most of the withdrawal symptoms. Trust me...I have the experience to back this post up.

 

[pieeyedpiper]

This is day 3 for me although the first 2 were not so bad. I have cut my poppy tea intake down from 20 6-8 inch pods to around 5-6 six. Today I have only had a very small dose in the morning. mostly stems and nubs as that is all i have left. I am trying now to cut it off all together. I have 90 600 mil geltabs of bali kratom arriving 2morrow. The plan is to take what i need for 5 days and then taper it off to none. 2night I have taken 8 mg of loperamide so far. My body feels heavy, my eyes are watering, my muscles are tightening. i know it's begininng. I feel I will have to lie down soon. I missed a trial date for a traffic ticket today. Ill have to call the clerk 2morrow and hope im not screwed. I will be leaving daily updates from here on in to document how the kratom taper works.

 

[pieeyedpiper]

day4 -day1 no tea kratom substitute. It is 1:30 at night. It's been an interesting day of ups and down. The Kratom arrived. I was a to total wreck and could barely walk a half block to the post office. I started taking the kratom this moring around 11. 2 at a time 600mil. a low dose did nothing so I popped a few lopermides. felt a little better but still bed ridden. Then i started upping the kratom. Once I got to about 4 grams I got up felt a surge of energy and the the withdrawls dissapeared all together. My appetite returned so I ate. I took a drive 20 miles away and then when hiking feel good, strong no depression, no pain and a very pleasant sense of clarity. When home ate dinner a little later. Kratom wore off pretty fast. My eyes started to water, demon chills returned, gradually felt heavier and heavier. I've been taking some more loperamide ever since but I'm feeling pretty messed up. I'm going to take some valerian root soon and try to sleep (not likely). Tomorrow I will take kratom again as soon as I wake up.

 

[Z Y G G Y]

I would put it on par with hydrocodone, because if it was heroin-bad (as you seem to think it is), it would be illegal by now.

im sorry to be an ass, but i kindly request that you stop posting in this thread. Each post you are making here is teeming with false information. Your comment that "if it were that strong it would be illegal", is not only non-sensical, but outright wrong. First off, contrary to popular belief, pods ARE illegal. Secondly, even if they were legal, that by no means would prove that it was "weak" or mild. The OP is consuming morphine, not to mention several others. Is it really your contention that bupe/methadone is not called for in morphine addiction.
Also, 15 pods is no small amount.
Bottom line, if the OP is experiencing dependency and difficulty in quitting-THAT is precicely what bupe/methadone is made for. Ill now step down from my soapbox.

Thank you daddysgone for correcting this obvious misinformation. Just cuz it makes sense to u virtuoso doesn't mean it's right.

Pods are only legal cuz they are used for decoration purposes. If they are meant for consumption then they automatically become illegal. Then by your logic, if they were heroin-bad then they would be illegal --> they are illegal then I guess they are heroin-bad. I used ur reasoning.

I know u mean well but posting misinformation is not the way we roll here at BL. I've seen Tchort's posts and I've never seen him make a misinformed post, it's always stuff that he can back up easily.