Pill Contents GC/MS - 4

[charlesbronson]

Originally posted by BigTrancer
we're always looking for good referenced facts here rather than hearsay - if you can't remember exact details just look it up the internet is wonderful like that (Hint: here is a PDF of the Drugs, Poisons and Controlled Substances Act 1981, here is a PDF from 2002 including TFMPP in Schedule 2 in QLD... etc)

^^^^

Originally posted by BigTrancer
As far as you know, unless you actually know, TFMPP could be schedule 101.9E=mc2

bwaaaaaahhh? I heard schedule 101.9E=mc2 is only for imported quadruple-stacked Es?????????????????
....sorry couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Cyberdyne
Tfmpp is schedule 1 as far as i know. You may actually be in some serious shit for that one.

As far as the NSW Guide to the Poisons Schedules is concerned (as at September 2003), TFMPP is in the same category as MDMA, heroin, DMT and many other weird and wonderful psychoactive drugs.

I believe that it is very unlikely (i.e. without any evidence, what you are saying is not correct) that TFMPP is in a separate category to MDMA, and Ritalin_Boy is not in any more shit for the TFMPP than he is/will be for the MDMA - they are one and the same as far as scheduling is concerned.

Any difference in charges will be dependent upon the mass of each substance that Ritalin_Boy was caught with, and the prescribed possession limits for each substance etc etc....

The category I refer to is NSW 'Schedule 8 (Drugs of Addiction)', subcategory 'Prohibited Plants and Drugs'. I doubt that other states have any significant differences in their scheduling system, I seem to recall a separate Schedule 9 for prohibited drugs in some state(s) but that needs to be researched.

My source is not digital, hence I have no link to reference to. So I am open to accusations that I made it all up.

 

[Ritalin_boy]

TFMPP is schedule 2 - same as MDMA. {different schedule to cocaine, heroin, amphetamine, methylamphetamine, and that most horribly addictive, damaging and all round detrimental drug, LSD. (schedule 1)}
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/D/DrugsMisuseR87.pdf

anyway, it wasnt TFMPP - unless they named it in an obscure short form - because the word was definitely only short; it was very, very close in spelling to, "(phenylfluoro)piperazine".

i'd have remembered if it were that long.

 

[charlesbronson]

It is confusing that there are different 'schedules' under which drugs/poisons are listed in legislation and the Poisons Schedules. As far as I can see:

The NSW Drug Misuse and Trafficking Act 1985 lists all prohibited drugs AND relevant S8 Drugs of Addiction AND some precursors under the title 'Schedule 1' and does not have separate categories for heroin, LSD, MDMA etc., as seen on this page. Later, something called the Drug Misuse and Trafficking Regulation 2000 was established in NSW, and this regulation had a whole separate 'schedule 2' list for precursors. See here. (Note that on this page 'schedule 1' within this piece of legislation lists "Short descriptions of certain offences", i.e. schedule is more or less an index or appendix). No wonder things can get buried in so much legal bullshit at times.

The Queensland Drug Misuse Regulation 1987 has various Schedules of 'Dangerous Drugs', including schedules for precursors, prescription drugs of addiction (S8 in NSW) etc., as shown by Ritalin_Boy's link above, and it seems to legally distinguish between prohibited drugs by their perceived 'severity' (for want of a better term).

Both of the above 'scheduling' systems exist within the relevant legislation themselves, and are probably used for easy reference to groups of drugs when the legislation is being cited in a court or in documents.

Then each state has a separate piece of legislation. In NSW it's called the 'Poisons and Therapeutic Goods Act 1966' and this Act established the Poisons Schedules, under which 'Prohibited Drugs and Plants' are a subcategory of 'Schedule 8 (Drugs of Addiction)' in NSW. This Act serves to regulate and establish laws concerning the manufacture/handling/labelling requirements etc. of drugs and chemicals that require such control, ranging from ordinary S4 prescription drugs, to S6 Industrial and Agricultural poisons etc.

There used to be a NSW Poisons 'Schedule 1 (Dangerous Poisons)', but apparently there was an amendment made a few years ago such that "There are no longer any Schedule 1 poisons, so for all practical purposes Schedule 1 no longer exists and no further reference to Schedule 1 is made in this Guide" (Source: NSW Guide to the Poisons Schedules 2003).

So an important thing to do when discussing drugs and schedules is to recognise the difference between a schedule within a single piece of legislation that serves more or less as an index (as far as I can tell), and a Schedule under a relevant Poisons Act in your state, which specifies all regulations concerning the chemicals within the Schedules it has established. The Poisons Acts and Drug Misuse Acts work in tandem to regulate chemicals, with the Drug Misuse & Trafficking Act having a narrower and more specific concern with 'misuse and trafficking' of chemicals and the legal ramifications of such activity.

Better yet, let us never speak of schedules again. 8(

 

[Ritalin_boy]

and does not have separate categories for heroin, LSD, MDMA etc

sorry i meant, MDMA and most other drugs are all in schedule 2, where as the entire set of drugs i listed in the brackets are collected in one schedule - schedule one, not a separate schedule for each....

oh and... i just realised, 8(

1 + 1 = it definitely wasnt TFMPP because it had words to the effect of 'non-scheduled substance' or 'non dangerous chemical' under it. this pill was labelled 'Item 001' and at the end it said "Dangerous drugs found in items 002, 003, and 004".

i challenge thee - find the identity of my mystery chem. (or dont, my legal aid will be able to show me the report in the next week or so.)

peece.

 

[peaked]

Maybe it was 1-benzylpiperazine, otherwise known as BZP ... though I think thats schedule 2 here - but legal in some other countries eg NZ. For this reason maybe it is viewed on less severly than other drugs? Though if that were true, you'd think it would be available OTC. And from what ive read, it sounds like it has worse side effects than many other illicit substances, yet lacks the positive effects of those substances aswell.

edit: I just re-read the above and I gather its not a scheduled substance, so it probably isnt this. Were you actually told it was some kind of piperazine ?

 

[Biscuit]

got facts today.8 butterflies at a weight of 1.936g or .242 g - 46.9% MDMA, for a grand total of around 110mg per pill. (MDMA as the only noted substance.)

Did you not only have one butterfly?

At first i thought that this must be wrong - surely there was something else in the butterflies... maybe they just only test for MDMA not MDxx... but then i realised if they found the obscure piperazine, they probably would have found MDA or PMA or meth or whatever else if it was there.

They certainly do test for MDA. It should not suprise you that only MDMA was found. This continual myth that any time a pill is unusual it must have another phenylethylamine in there along with MDMA must stop.

110mg is certainly not anything massive. It is above average though and a very good pill. Red mistubishis are about the same but they contained caffeine too. I am aware of a number of results around 120-130 and one even up to 150mg. So you can certainly go higher.

I would suggest the "strength" of the butterflies was due to their compact size and very fast absorption. This is consistent with them not lasting long too.

 

[charlesbronson]

Originally posted by Biscuit
They certainly do test for MDA. It should not suprise you that only MDMA was found. This continual myth that any time a pill is unusual it must have another phenylethylamine in there along with MDMA must stop.

Very well said. The way some people confidently go on about how the pill they consumed was a vintage blend of pure-grain MDMA - with dashes of MDA and a hint of MMDA - often makes me wonder how many users out there have a GC/MS setup stuck half-way down their oesophagus.

Many users fail to acknowledge the very significant influence that subjective factors (set/setting) can have on their experience, not to mention the physical properties of the dosage form - as you mentioned: size, press density etc. Despite how experienced a user believes they are, I'd say it is highly unlikely that they would be able to discern the specific contents of a pill based on the qualitative nature of their high (let alone how the pill tastes!! 8( )

I'll leave it at that. A separate thread is needed if this issue is to be discussed in-depth (one probably already exists).

 

[BigTrancer]

^ I suspect there are several threads on the topic

BT

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

Biscuit:

I would love if you could post a link or tell me where you got those GC/MS results for the Red Mitzis from.

Sorry I know this is a little off topic but I have searched long and hard on google and so on and found nothing except vague newspaper heresay. I gave up becuase I did't find any official toxicology report, GC/MS (or police or NDARC report from the GC/MC report) or anything except.

I would so much like to see some kind of official report or something close. There must be someone who has seen it.

 

[KostoN]

http://www.jesses-wish.org.au/drug_damage.htm

Link to an article.

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

Thanks but that's still a rather vauge newspaper reports. Nothing quite official there. All it says of any value is:

Toxicology tests found the "red Mitsubishi" tablets, as well as other kinds of ecstasy, contained 110 milligrams of MDMA.

Doen't have a pill weight, or much detail, such as any listing of other chemicals. I have read annectodal reports from people who supposedly saw or or read about the test reult for Red Mitsubishi saying MDMA + caffeine and onother person saying MDMA + very small ammount of MDEA. I wish I could find the truth here from some official report.

 

[ANDO420]

They certainly do test for MDA.

um.. and how do you know this??? (no pun)

Red mistubishis are about the same but they contained caffeine too. I am aware of a number of results around 120-130 and one even up to 150mg.

so what were the pills that tested 120 - 130, and how did you find this out??

So you can certainly go higher.

yea they could put 200 - 250 of mdma if they wan't, but it makes no sence, it would cost them dubble to make just one pill.

I dont care what anyone says, ppl who make this shit are only making it for the $$$$, not to get ppl as high as they can

 

[phase_dancer]

Originally posted by Biscuit

They certainly do test for MDA.

ANDO420 asked

um.. and how do you know this???

GC is procedure that identifies compounds by their retention time . In other words, how long does it take the substance to be eluted from the capillary or column of the chromatograph. Most substances exit at different rates. If two or more substances "overlap" or exit at the same rate, then condition are altered or derivatives of the compounds are produced (chemical reaction, commonly done with amines) and these derivatives will alter the exit times, usually spreading them further apart. The technique is qualified by comparing the signature of the unknowns to those of pure compounds.

MS is slightly more complex, but basically the GC separated compounds are ionised and accerlerated by an electric field. The individual compounds are then separated by their mass/charge ratio.

When used together, these techniques are very good at identifying both the compound and how much was present.

If MDA was in a tablet and it was though to contain MDMA, an analyst would see that the retention times did not match. It would be then compared against other chemicals, with MDA being a likely second choice. A good analyst, familiar with the characteristics of these drugs would likely have little trouble in recognising MDA.

At the most, all it would take is to prepare another sample and do another run through the machine ~ 20-30 mins max, but in reality, it is more likely these dys that an MS library would be used to compare mass-to-charge ratios (m/z).

 

[ANDO420]

Yes p_d this is all well and good, but what i was getting at is you don't just get access to GC/MC reports, and even less chance of getting access to the lab to do it your self

 

[Fry-d-]

As happened to the original poster of this thread the police will do this kind of testing when someone gets busted in possession of substances. When these cases go to court this information is read out and will be in the cases transcript. This information is available if you know where to look for it.

 

[ANDO420]

 

[stulic]

I wish we would have something similar to Eve&Rave in Switzerland Link
Btw. a new warning has been published over there because of a pill found to contain a substance named Meta-Chlorophenylpiperazine (M-CPP).
Link
Interesting also they found a pill with MDHOET in, here Shulgin about this MDA non-active derivate.

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

Yeah Swiss raves rock. I went to "Energy" (biggest rave in Switzerland) right after the Zurich Street Parade and they had GC/MS testing there. Silly me though as I couldn't read Swiss German and I thought it was an anti-drug stand waning people of certain dangerous pills that were around. Only later (after I'd munched) did some friendly Italian ravers tell me they'd got there pills tested there and they had MDMA + caffeine in them. Turned out I had a sailing good time on the pill I got anyway... would just have been nice to see a little read out... Oh well next time....

Hope the good fellows that are running testing and harm reduction here keep pushing to government for GC/MS testing.