Pharmayahuasca inquery - base triptamine(s?) with harmaline homolog 9-methyl-β-carboline, and trialing Syrian Rue extraction Teks.

[Working_Class]

I'm considering a whole different set of experimental trials using various base triptamines such as DMT, DPT, MiPT, or MALT alongside a homolog of harmaline.

The synthetic homolog is called 9-methyl-β-carboline. I have no experience with the natural extracts of harmine or harmaline, but I do have experience with 9-methyl-β-carboline alongside some other nootropics.

My inquery would be to anyone who has experience with pharmayahuasca formulations. What the doses were, what the experience produced or any other information that might be useful.

My main intention is to formulate a capsule with pure DMT and 9-methyl-β-carboline to facilitate ayahuasca in a pill. AKA pharmayahuasca.

If left to my own devices, I would probably start with microdoses of each (say something like a 2:1 ratio of base triptamine and 9-me-bc) and slowly work forward from there to see what happens.

The thing I want to avoid is wasting DMT trying all kinds of ratios and doses, as the shit is precious and a bit of a pain to extract. Also, more than that, I'd like to avoid adverse reactions, but that can be done by starting out at a low dose and working up.

Any information is welcome. I for once have not done any research into the matter prior to my inquery. However, obviously I will be scouring the DMT nexus for anecdotes about this curiosity.

Some things I am aware of;

Harmine and harmaline have an approximate half life of about 3 hours, making the clearance time about 15 hrs (5 half lifes). 9-me-bc is a reversible MAOI which is purported to act on both MAO A and MAO B enzymes. Taken orally alongside base triptamines, I would imagine the inhibbition of the breakdown of monoamines alongside these xenobiotic triptamines in the gut is what would allow the psychoactive effects of the base triptamines to take hold on the CNS. Bypassing the first process by which they are typically metabolized, as these enzymes do act before first hepatic metabolism in the gut, before absorption into the blood stream.

Likely, this is the reason smoking the base triptamines is so effective. Bypassing all metabolic processes, being delivered directly to the pulmonary system, the heart, and circulated to the peripheral vasculature immediately. Not unlike the more invasive mode of administration of injection. Also, less instantaneous ROAs circumventing these metabolic pathways being rectal or intranasal administration, all bypassing first hepatic metabolism, degradation by MAO activity in the gut and chemical degredation via stomach acid in the digestive tract.

Another interesting consideration, is the origins of sensation when various ROAs are used. Smoking produces a very chest heavy euphoria, followed immediately by a cerebral infiltration by the chemical. There are 5HT receptors in the peripheral nervous system, and the sensation of the interaction with these receptors in the lungs and heart are what is felt first upon inhalation of the vapors. The sensation manifest rapidly starting in the chest, then spreading to the cerebrum.

Whereas ingestion, the sensation first arises in the small intestine / duodenum and is percieved as "butterflies", as the chemical intracts with 5HT receptors in the area. It is becoming more widely understood that the gut has a more complex and dynamic role in the interactions which influence overall perception and state of being. But that aside, the sensations arise in the afferent neurons of the enteric nervous system, and these signals synapse with areas in the spinal cord first, before the development of the rest of the cognitive and bodily sensations which arise from circulation of the drug.

The come up is very very different for some of these ROAs, as illustrated by the physiology of the nervous system, and where the drug interacts with first. Thus, oral administration produces a much more gradually manifesting sensation, with first alerts starting in the enteric nervous system, which communicates with the spine and ganglia of the ANS, before fully developing into the full on experience. The deeeper we understand the experience, the better we can navigate it.

So with that, I welcome any and all advice, anecdotes or experiences that Bluelight members have to offer. Show me what you got.

 

[MescaliCAN]

I don’t have any experience with the MAOI you’re referring to, although I do hope you share your results! After looking into it only briefly I’m actually more interested in combining it with mescaline

To answer your question about pharma, in my opinion the MAOI’s commonly used are more alike than they are different. Harmaline is the most sedating/stoning as well as creating the most nausea. THH is more energetic and clear headed, and harmine seems to split the difference. I prefer a 1:1 mix of harmine & THH for my pharma journeys but it really comes down to preference. THH is in my opinion the “secret sauce” that of all the MAOI’s I’ve used seems to consistently deliver the experience I’m after. It’s actually fantastic all by itself - sort of like a very mild MDMA that lasts far longer.

I’ve also tried moclobemide and it’s fine - the main difference I’ve noticed is that from first alerts to the end of the visuals lasts at most 1 hour for me. Harmala alkaloids extend that out another hour or two. Only thing I can really say is the difference is that taking moclobemide and the DMT at the same time won’t work unlike harmalas where taking them together seems to work best. Moclobemide is different in one other aspect in that harmalas slow the pharma experience down to a more Aya like experience, whereas moclobemide is like a vaping session that lasts an hour. Just depends on what you’re after

Last thought is that pharma is a fickle bitch - get the timing of the MAOI wrong and you’ve wasted your spice. In my opinion taking the MAOI orally and then vaping DMT allows you to experience the differences between them in a more sure fire way. Then you can tailor the dosage for pharma based off the the mix of harmalas that work best for you.

I don’t have much experience with RC’s outside of 4-ACO-DMT which is great, but if any of the ones you listed are orally active without an MAOI you’d be wise to exercise caution and up the dose slowly. MAOI+shrooms is amazing but the effects are roughly doubled as well as the duration, which is not the case with oral DMT.

Looking forward to hearing about your trials with your synthetic MAOI - please report back with your experiences so we can all learn more about it!

 

[Working_Class]

I don’t have any experience with the MAOI you’re referring to, although I do hope you share your results! After looking into it only briefly I’m actually more interested in combining it with mescaline

To answer your question about pharma, in my opinion the MAOI’s commonly used are more alike than they are different. Harmaline is the most sedating/stoning as well as creating the most nausea. THH is more energetic and clear headed, and harmine seems to split the difference. I prefer a 1:1 mix of harmine & THH for my pharma journeys but it really comes down to preference. THH is in my opinion the “secret sauce” that of all the MAOI’s I’ve used seems to consistently deliver the experience I’m after. It’s actually fantastic all by itself - sort of like a very mild MDMA that lasts far longer.

I’ve also tried moclobemide and it’s fine - the main difference I’ve noticed is that from first alerts to the end of the visuals lasts at most 1 hour for me. Harmala alkaloids extend that out another hour or two. Only thing I can really say is the difference is that taking moclobemide and the DMT at the same time won’t work unlike harmalas where taking them together seems to work best. Moclobemide is different in one other aspect in that harmalas slow the pharma experience down to a more Aya like experience, whereas moclobemide is like a vaping session that lasts an hour. Just depends on what you’re after

Last thought is that pharma is a fickle bitch - get the timing of the MAOI wrong and you’ve wasted your spice. In my opinion taking the MAOI orally and then vaping DMT allows you to experience the differences between them in a more sure fire way. Then you can tailor the dosage for pharma based off the the mix of harmalas that work best for you.

I don’t have much experience with RC’s outside of 4-ACO-DMT which is great, but if any of the ones you listed are orally active without an MAOI you’d be wise to exercise caution and up the dose slowly. MAOI+shrooms is amazing but the effects are roughly doubled as well as the duration, which is not the case with oral DMT.

Looking forward to hearing about your trials with your synthetic MAOI - please report back with your experiences so we can all learn more about it!

I've gone over all of the information that you have included in your response, and I feel like I'm a little bit better equipped to go through with this experiment. Although I don't have any huge sense of urgency about it, I do want to take it for a few trials in the next 12 months.

I've done my background research and it seems almost as if I would be better off just getting some Syrian Rue and possibly doing some extractions, or just boiling with lemon juice for ingestion. The extraction process for the Syrian Rue has captured my attention now. However the whole point of the inquiry was to try and make a single capsule into a single entity, but looking a little further into it it seems almost as if the MAOI would be better taken maybe 15 to 30 minutes prior to the triptamine. Also, the doses for the MAOI's that I've found seem to all be in the 100 - 200 mg range. 1 gram of 9-methyl-β-carboline was 160 bucks, so it'd average something between 16 - 32$ cdn for that component alone, making this among the most expensive experiments I've considered so far when considering the street value of DMT here is 200$ / gram.

However, if the experimentation does illuminate some pretty solid methods, it could really save other people a lot of fiddling. There is a couple simple Teks for Pharmahuasca out there too, and being that I like to start with a baby toe first in evey experiment, the full exploration of this one is going to take quite some time.

Nevertheless, I will post back here any and all results or knowledge that I may glean from any experiments that I decide to try. Among these may possibly be some attempts at making Changa, and a DMT or base triptamine vape pen would be an extremely novel item to have in the hand made collection. It looks like the next thing I'll have to acquire is a selection of herbs, rue, and possibly a vape rig with some sort of small and or affordable tank(s). This is gonna be a long one, but it'll be interesting to document.

The next planned experiment that is upcoming is a higher dose of 4-HO-DPT (about 100 mg) with blood sugar monitoring, blood pressure monitoring and possible attempt to explore the efficacy of Ketanserin for ending the effects of a serotogenic drug trip at the 4th hour. Lots of work to do, and everything needs at least 2 weeks inbetween experiments.

 

[Working_Class]

Here's one of the resources for extraction Teks that I'll be using for harmalas;

Erowid Syrian Rue Vaults: Extraction : Overview

A brief overview of Syrian Rue Extractions, by Zam

erowid.org

And the Tek that I've been using for the MHB extractions;

Cybs' Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

If anyone has any different Teks they're fond of, send em my way. The ATB salt tek has been good for me so far, yeilding around 1 - 1.2g / 100g. I was in a big rush with the first 500 grams for a music festival last year, but now that I'm done my first university course and I'm just fiddling around with upgrading highschool Chemistry, I have a little more spare time to finish the last 500g at a leisurely pace.

There is the mud from one batch that's been sitting in a jar for 3 - 4 months outside with a layer of naphta on it, and when the temperature drops a decent amount of xstal DMT precipitates out of solution, leading me to a conclusion that I should be saving the mud after the 4th wash to sit and stew for a final extraction a few months after. Waste not want not, as they say. So I suppose having a few extra jars for long term soaking would be a good idea. They'll get used again eventually either way. Just a bit of a space issue once 5 jars are just hanging around full of mud and naphta.

I'm almost more entertained by the whole extraction procedure than the actual use of the extract, but sooner or later it'll all come down to some trials once I get my materials and procedures outlined in detail.

 

[Xorkoth]

Extraction of DMT from MHRB or other sources is very easy and very affordable. I have never taken ayahuasca in any form so I can't really comment there.

 

[MescaliCAN]

I've done my background research and it seems almost as if I would be better off just getting some Syrian Rue and possibly doing some extractions, or just boiling with lemon juice for ingestion. The extraction process for the Syrian Rue has captured my attention now. However the whole point of the inquiry was to try and make a single capsule into a single entity, but looking a little further into it it seems almost as if the MAOI would be better taken maybe 15 to 30 minutes prior to the triptamine. Also, the doses for the MAOI's that I've found seem to all be in the 100 - 200 mg range. 1 gram of 9-methyl-β-carboline was 160 bucks, so it'd average something between 16 - 32$ cdn for that component alone, making this among the most expensive experiments I've considered so far when considering the street value of DMT here is 200$ / gram.

There’s actually nothing wrong with taking harmala alkaloids with DMT at the same time or in the same pill. When you drink aya you’re ingesting both together and it obviously works. I don’t have the technical know-how to explain what’s actually going on, but the harmalas seem to act as a buffer for the DMT in the stomach and Pharma seems to work more consistently when ingesting both together, whether that’s dissolving both into OJ or whatever or filling a capsule with 200mg harmalas/100mg DMT or whatever ratio you decide on. Pro tip - use the sharp end of a knife to poke a hole in both ends of the capsule before swallowing. This change for me makes Pharma a success every time I do it. Again nothing but experience to go off but everyone who does this reports back that it works great.

The only time I don’t take the MAOI and DMT together is when moclobemide is used. Any schedule besides moclobemide followed by DMT an hour later results in misfires more often then not. Since it’s not a commonly used MAOI for this purpose I wouldn’t worry about but if you procure some I would try that first. The experience is better with the harmala alkaloids anyway.

Regarding the harmala/DMT vape pen idea - many have tried and I’ve yet to see someone nail it. My understanding is that the vaporization temp for DMT and harmalas are so far apart that you either vape the spice without getting harmala effects at all, or you turn the heat up enough to vape the harmalas and burn the DMT. In my opinion, the best way for changa is either enhanced leaf or taking the harmala orally and then vaping DMT to desired effects. Few who try oral harmalas + vaped DMT go back to vaping DMT by itself. This is primarily the way I use DMT now, since you can have an ayahuasca-like experience that lasts as long as your harmala and DMT stash will allow.

Like I said before Pharma/DMT can be a fickle bitch - it requires time, dedication, and many tries to get exactly right, unlike pretty much any other psychedelic where they are good to go as is. This is also why I think DMT has more of a culture built around it then the rest of the psychedelics - the requirement of investing time and energy to dial it in builds a bond that is pretty unique.

Best of luck in your trials! Make sure to report back your experiences, good or bad, so we can all benefit

 

[Didgital]

Hmm what I kind of find both fascinating and frustrating using harmalas is inconsistency of effects. For example, I took 200mg of a 3:1 harmaline/harmine mixture with dmt freebase (but converted to the acetate) 20 minutes later for 3 nights in a row.
Night 1, 60mg duration 2.5 hrs, intensity extreme
Night 2 80mg duration 5 hrs, effects mild.
Night 3 100mg duration duration 7 hrs intensity strong, kind of a dark trip.

The main differences I think was my diet. Day 1 I'd fasted for 3 days, day 2 I ate a giant hamburger, day 3 I ate very little.

But yeah, it's difficult to nail down the perfect dose. 60mg of the freebase converted to acetate was MORE than enough...

I have been told 40mg of DET with similar amount of harmalas was amazing..

One last comment u mention it is also am MAO-B inhibitor. So no tryamine!!! Your diet should be a little stricter imo.

 

[Ismene2]

Must admit I don't bother with real DMT since 4-aco-dmt appeared. 4-aco is simply the better drug by far. Does everything DMT does but you arn't vomiting your guts out and it lasts a lot longer.

 

[Working_Class]

Hmm what I kind of find both fascinating and frustrating using harmalas is inconsistency of effects. For example, I took 200mg of a 3:1 harmaline/harmine mixture with dmt freebase (but converted to the acetate) 20 minutes later for 3 nights in a row.
Night 1, 60mg duration 2.5 hrs, intensity extreme
Night 2 80mg duration 5 hrs, effects mild.
Night 3 100mg duration duration 7 hrs intensity strong, kind of a dark trip.

The main differences I think was my diet. Day 1 I'd fasted for 3 days, day 2 I ate a giant hamburger, day 3 I ate very little.

But yeah, it's difficult to nail down the perfect dose. 60mg of the freebase converted to acetate was MORE than enough...

I have been told 40mg of DET with similar amount of harmalas was amazing..

One last comment u mention it is also am MAO-B inhibitor. So no tryamine!!! Your diet should be a little stricter imo.

I love this, takes quite a bit of the guess work out when peeps like yourself help a brother out with some info like this. Great detail!

I've played with 9-methyl-β-carboline before, no worries on the diet caution.

I've never done legit seed extract harmalas, so I'm kind of pioneering the doses with this stuff, though I have to agree that It's more likely to be more similar to harmalas than unique in pharmacological effect. Im just laying in bed unable to sleep because I'm trying to rest my sleep schedule to 3 am mornings, and when I get my ass out of bed i'll be trying;

15 mg 9-methyl-β-carboline with
8 mg 4-ACO-DET
Tritrating up another 5 mg 4-ACO-DET

If everything goes smoothly after the 1st 20 - 30 mins.

Never tried this particular triptamine, but I've tried many of the others. Its been a good while since my last Methylallyltryptamine dose, so this should sink into the right spots pretty nicely.

Edit;

5:00 am
15 mg 9-methyl-β-carboline
5 mg 4-ACO-DET
2 half caf coffees (between 5 - 6 am)

6:00 am blood pressure / heart rate
L- 135 / 83 RHR 57
R- 130 / 78 RHR 57

Pretty comfortable right here. Some acute sense of pulse, but that's totally normal for me, what with the coffee etc. These are the readings while studying. Haven't slept either, so that always factors in.

Either way, I had a "woah" moment when the 4 sub capsule finally dissolved in my gut, it was an acute rush sensation, followed by a gradual shift into microdose perception territory. Studying is fun, my writing is neat and tidy, and I'm alert but not intoxicated, pupils are dilated. For today, I think this is the where I'll hang. I'll push it another time knowing this is where 15 + 5 puts me.

 

[Working_Class]

I also know 5H2b agonists inhibit inflammatory immune cell production, so these experiments need to be taken low and slow what with the current events. This is likely part of the reason why psychonaut wiki founders had put out a PSA about (general) drug use in the time of the lung flu itis. Along with other drugs, the immunological influence could be a detriment. Just proceed with caution.

Immunomodulatory capacity of the serotonin receptor 5-HT2B in a subset of human dendritic cells - Scientific Reports

Serotonin is a monoamine neurotransmitter that signals through a wide array of receptors (5-HT1–7) many of which are also involved in immune processes. Dendritic cells (DCs) are crucial players in immune defense by bridging innate and adaptive immune responses via their vast repertoire of...

www.nature.com

 

[Didgital]

I also know 5H2b agonists inhibit inflammatory immune cell production, so these experiments need to be taken low and slow what with the current events. This is likely part of the reason why psychonaut wiki founders had put out a PSA about (general) drug use in the time of the lung flu itis. Along with other drugs, the immunological influence could be a detriment. Just proceed with caution.

Immunomodulatory capacity of the serotonin receptor 5-HT2B in a subset of human dendritic cells - Scientific Reports

Serotonin is a monoamine neurotransmitter that signals through a wide array of receptors (5-HT1–7) many of which are also involved in immune processes. Dendritic cells (DCs) are crucial players in immune defense by bridging innate and adaptive immune responses via their vast repertoire of...

www.nature.com

So I've no experience or knowledge with that particular harmalogue. Is it more potent?15mg doesnt sound like much tho if that's all that's required to inhibit mao it sounds like a dream. 200mg harmalas in h2o tastes terrible and I usually need half a cup of warm h2o to completely dissolve them.

Interesting about 5HTb agonism suppresses immune response (if I understand correctly).

Would that mean compounds such as mdma and 2cb increase risk of viral infection?

 

[Working_Class]

I'm not sure, seeing as I've no experience with the OG harmalas. I do know that taking steady doses of 15 mg / day slowly elicit stronger cumulative subjective effects, which I've tried for purported nootropic effect. I did find that over a 10 day course, along semax, bromantane and fasoracetam, I experienced intense stimulation that felt akin to a stimulant high that came from within and lasted, and lasted. It was actually pretty crazy. There's a long ass thread back there in my post history called "9-methyl-β-carboline and others" under RC's.

To be thorough, I'm sure I'd have to experiment with both. This whole experiment is going to take a very long time, what with experiences far removed from one another with what I'd imagine would utilize slowly escalating doses. Keeps me busy.

 

[Working_Class]

I did one last (5th) pull on a batch of 200 g MHRB using Cybs'_Hybrid_ATB_'Salt'_Tek, and instead of freezing / precipitation of crystals, I let it all evaporate in a pyrex dish. I got this deep orange oily stuff. I tried warming it to get any naphta out, but after a few hours it remained yellow / orange, liquid and oily. I tossed it in a silicone jar for dabbing oil, and I'll freeze it.

There is another batch of old naphta, which I had dipped bud into, and it washed all the THC off the buds. We gave those darkened stinkey buds away at shambhala, so never did get to give the weird spice bud a try. I'm currently letting the "THC" naphta batch evaporate as I write this. Next few rounds of old naphta I'll probably save to try making changa.

I may try a different TEK just for fun for the next *fresh* batch, seeing as I have all the time in the world. Also, the jars are hella full with 200 g of bark and all the liquids, I've cut back on water volume a little just to give some breathing room at the top, so it's not full "to the tits".

Might just leave these yellow oily products of evaporation "as is", and try eating them as standalone compounds at different doses, then slowly try adding 9-methyl-β-carboline if nothing bad happens on the first few rounds. I've heard that the orange oily stuff is psychoactive on it's own. Vaporizing I'm certain would produce effect, but I'm more curious about oral efficacy. Either way, I'll be checking it out soon using various doses and ROA's.

I've done my reading and it seems that the color may be oxidized DMT (NMT?) Or other alkaloids. Either way, I've tried both the pure white stuff vs the yellow stuff via iol butner pipe and tinfoil on various occasions, and personally found the yellowish waxy stuff to be more nasty smelling / tasting but produce more pronounced visual effects. Both work just fine, but consistently I've found the waxier yellow stuff to be very "vidoegame esque" in terms of visual effect, and the clean white crystal to be more "5th dimensional" and slightly less potent. The constituents of each variety is a topic of much debate, but I have never come across this slick oily orange stuff before. It'll make for a neat experiment for sure. Smells like new shoes.

 

[Working_Class]

I've had a few beers and decided to give the oily orange extract a vaporiation trial.

Jist did 10 mg to make sure it wouldn't be too hard to handle. Held breath for 10 seconds. Stimulation with definite psychedelic head space, no visual distortion. Heavy on the lungs.

20 mg vaporized vis iol burner + bubbler set up. Deeper hesdspace, physical stimulation and increased, thick salvation. There's something going on here but not like nice xstal. Spacey sensation where everything feels farther away than it is. Its not a traditional color shift, but a definite shift in positional perception.

Next round is 30 mg and that's tops for the evening. It's lung heavy and Not very nice to smoke. Strong numbing sensation where the smoke runs over the tongue. I'm on the fence about this next puff.

30 mg produces intense body tingling and euphoria not unlike 10 mg of clean xstal. This is definitely a good candidate for oral ROA experiments, smoking even through a bubbler is rough and heavy. Will not repeat. The body high was "getting there" if that makes any sense. It seems like more of a body load than a headspace thing, but headspace is undeniably present. Overall dirty experience comparatively. Injestion or plugging would be my next 2 choices with the strange oily orange extract. Might go better in a multple filter bong in some sort of changa preparation. Not sure what to make of it yet. But none the less, I feel like 30 mg oral is the next administration with no MAOI. Then maybe with a small amount of the 9-methyl-β-carboline. 10 - 15 mg. Test the waters.

 

[Working_Class]

MET & Harmine - Erowid Exp - 'METahuasca'

An Experience with MET & Harmine. 'METahuasca' by any major dude

erowid.org

I've been preparing to try the pharmahuasca experiments and came across this. Looks worth while