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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Petition for quantitative pill testing in Australia how to go about?

B

backindauk

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 17, 2003
Messages
163
It has always bugged me. Why do countries such as The Netherland have quantitative (ie how much of substance X,Y,Z is inside a pill) testing and countries, not unlike Australia do not allow this.

I think the legalised quantitative testing system, where people can get VALIDATED information as to what is in their pills.

Places where people could go, shell out a couple of bucks and get their pills "LAB TESTED" to show amounts and types of chemical in their pill, then this information would be stored on a web database for everyone and anyone who is intererested to see. This mind you, is all in the interests of harm reduction.

Listening to a Triple-J Interview which was presented on their current affairs program back in April brought this thread on. I think if Australia had a "Unity" like organisation, funded to some extent by the Government, there would be a massive increase in harm reduction (sounds funny hey?).

If people were informed about exactly what is in their pills, we'd have a much safer (read: harm reduced) drug experience.

How would a community go about getting this thing happening in Australia?

I know that "Unity" did their business for four years while it was still illegal.

Why are we a "decade behind" the Netherlands? we have the same drugs (maybe not as strong).

Even though Enlighten is currently doing a great job, they are only at the big dance parties or club venues and do not have quantitative information avaliable.


Comments:
 
Things move forward very slowly when it comes to something like drug reform. You have to realise that you can't just expect the government to magically implement a public GCMS service for drug takers because its the safest thing to do, it would be an election death wish. Enlighten has started the very arduous task (think Frodo Baggins) of getting the process underway, by starting in an area we have control of. If Enlighten did not have a voice at government conferences to raise these issues, then we might be three years behind where we are now.

A GCMS program costs money, money that would have to be provided by a supportive backer, or the government. Neither of which we have at our disposal. If you really want to see something get done then perhaps you could think of ways to raise money for Enlighten so we could buy a HPLC to move on from reagent testing into more accurate results.
 
just out of interest how much will that baby set enlighten back?

what we really need is a corrupt pill popping scientist working at an agriculture dept, they have mass spectrometer/gas chromatograph machines in em... :D
 
I think a much more realistic goal is to have the results of confiscated pills published.

Pills have to be tested specifically for whatever substance is suspected, and a lab analyst has to provide the police with an evidentiary certificate stating what compound the pills contain.

Since this is already being done, it would be a much easier task to have the results of these tests published rather than having people submit pills for testing. It requires no additional GC/MS work, nor any other scientific work, merely the collation of already existing data
 
what we really need is a corrupt pill popping scientist working at an agriculture dept, they have mass spectrometer/gas chromatograph machines in em...
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There are probably many scientists with access to GCMS machines that would consider doing pill testing out of pure interests sake, but this is not a trivial task. The machines need to be completely calibrated for a particular kind of test in order for the results to be meaningful, and reference standards and testing protocols for detecting quantities of illicit drugs are not easy to come by, I would imagine.

BigTrancer :)
 
VelocideX said:
I think a much more realistic goal is to have the results of confiscated pills published.
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That could lead to some BAD propaganda news stories.

If 300 pills were confiscated on a Friday night and only 10 contained PMA, I guarentee that only 10 results would be published. I doubt the government would allow reports to be released if they were off a clean, dancy pill.

Call me cynical, but, hey...
 
just out of interest how much will that baby set enlighten back?
Click to expand...


A new Gas Chromatograph is priced from ~$25,000. Starting point is probably a bit higher for some brands but that's what Shimatzu quoted 2 months ago as the startin price in their range.

MS is a different story, much more expensive, and you need to buy the matching MS to the GC it's fitted to. I've heard stories about how x brand GC was coupled to Y brand MS, but I couldn't think of a worse thing to try to make work correctly.

The other thing which is needed to minimize handling errors and to do continuous runs ( which you need to in order to make it pay for itself ) is an autosampler.

This package from the brand mentioned (not known to be the most expensive) is around $180,000.

But it doesn't stop there. This is no portable machine, although it's not so heavy so it can't be moved. Gases are required for GC. Hydrogen must be ultra clean and cost's $900-00 per G sized tank. You also need ultra pure air, nitrogen and helium if you want to get the most out of the machine.

Then there's maintainance costs. Service packages are usually priced into the machine costs.

Then there's NATA approval which certifies the machine to do the work intended. Without NATA certification, your results are worth nothing legally or commercially. If someone died after taking a pill, and it had previously been analysed with an unapproved device, any legal problems that came the way of the tester couldn't be defended at all without NATA approval.

There are GC specialists who work for NATA that live around Australia. If you happen to live further away, then you pay the costs for his visist - and like any departmental inspector, he usually finds something that requires another inspection - at your cost again!!

Once you do that, then it's only a matter of a license to work with scheduled substances. If that's not done, then unlike pill testing where any drug residue is destroyed or washed away, residue will remain trapped in the column, albeit very small amounts. But amount enough to be detectable with ultra sensitive GC MS MS. That's right a mass spec of a mass spec. Very high resolving powers.

So I don't know there'd be much change out of $300,000 by the time a years planning was accounted for after purchase and installation.


However, if the standards (pure, very pure chemical comparisons) for the drugs could be legally obtained, a GC would suffice for many applications involving the quantitave analysis of substances in pills and powders. But such a device is hardly portable, and still costs money to operate.


As Mac said, HPLC is probably the more affordable and practical device for testing. It still takes a bit to learn to drive, but it's easier to pack up and move.

A new HPLC will set you back ~$25,000 +. The plus mostly goes into the detector. The U-beaut state of the art diode array detectors, which will extend far nto the UV range while also covering the visible spectrum are definitely the way to go. Fucking fantastic devices. But a good one will cost upwards of $50,000. An affordable alternative is a cheaper phototransistor based UV/VIS detector which start at around the $2000 mark.


So all we need is about $1,000,000 and Enlighten could be doing advanced tablet analysis, provide alternative analysis to forensics for defendants and litigated companies and court hearings, and in the spare time, analyse supermarket and pharmaceutical products. Whenever anyone does such things, something is usually found. Personally I reckon we'd have another PAN-fiasco in no time ;)

If I had the gear and time to go with it, I bet there'd be a few general sale products that would show quite different amounts and chemicals to amounts stated
 
If we took $1 out of every politicians super plan we would be there! lol
S goes and gets another beer from the fridge....8)
Only time will tell...
 
Does bluelight have a donation fund? im quite happy to donate $10 a month to bluelight ;)
 
Since this is already being done, it would be a much easier task to have the results of these tests published rather than having people submit pills for testing. It requires no additional GC/MS work, nor any other scientific work, merely the collation of already existing data

It's highly likely this data is already available under FOI. I smell a holiday project..
 
How is GC or even HPLC going to provide accurate qualitative data unless you have a standard of all the possible pill components. Especially with all the research chems cropping up (which in my understanding can be in many many different forms).

Quantitative is great for knowing how much what ever is in there that your looking for, but it won't help if there is something obviously harmful that you're not looking for.

Hell, there's plenty of intelligent people here, many out of work chemists (like myself) why don't we all chip in and buy ourselfs a MS , a GC, and auto sampler and what not?

We can buy all the stuff on e-bay!
 
Originally posted by ld50 vs ssri
Does bluelight have a donation fund? im quite happy to donate $10 a month to bluelight ;)

Bluelight isn't Enlighten, and Bluelight is does not have money concerns as it's future has been assured by a donor. This ensures Bluelight does not need to fundraise and also ensures it's survival.
 
-Thoth said:
It's highly likely this data is already available under FOI. I smell a holiday project..
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Despite being a law student, I'm not familiar with the FOI legislation. I'll have to check to see what precisely it covers...
 
From http://www.premiers.nsw.gov.au/NSWCommunity/FreedomOfInformation/default.htm

"What is Freedom of Information?

In NSW, the Freedom of Information Act 1989 gives you the legal right to:

Obtain access to information held as records by State Government Agencies, a Government Minister, local government and other public bodies;

Request amendments to records of a personal nature that are inaccurate; and

Appeal against a decision not to grant access to information or to amend personal records."

"How do I request Information?

Every day, government and other public bodies respond to many requests for general information from the public. This process will still be your first avenue of access to the information you wish to see.

To make an FOI request, however, take the following steps:
Identify the information or document that you would like to see;

Identify which agency or organisation is likely to keep that information. If you are unsure about the agency concerned, contact the agency's FOI officer or the Government Information Service. Remember, this is separate Freedom of Information legislation for other States and for the Federal Government (Commonwealth). NSW Government legislation does not cover other State or Commonwealth agencies;

Write your request on an FOI application form (available from all government agencies) or in a letter and post or deliver it to the agency concerned;

Provide as much information as possible about the document you wish to see, such as file reference numbers; and

Enclose the $30 fee for your application.

Agencies generally have 21 days to complete your applications, however this period may be extended if third party consultations are required.

Sometimes processing fees may need to be charged to deal with applications. There are provisions for discounts to eligible applicants."
 
Quantative testing is something we all wish for and those determined few even push for its not something that will be given to us by the people who make the desicions. Politics being as it is and governments being as they are we will keep trying but as mentioned above its a long and expensive road to get this sort of testing done on demand.

One of the mighty Perth Bluelighters even had a friend of a friend who did have acess to said testing equipment and tested a sample of pills available in Perth. Unfortunately even those posted results weren't available to us for long before they were taken down, testing illegal substances on fairly unique equipment and all.... :\
 
So all we need is about $1,000,000 and Enlighten could be doing advanced tablet analysis, provide alternative analysis to forensics for defendants and litigated companies and court hearings, and in the spare time, analyse supermarket and pharmaceutical products. Whenever anyone does such things, something is usually found. Personally I reckon we'd have another PAN-fiasco in no time
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hmmm then all you really need is one bad product and a person willing to extort money from a pharmecutical company :) well if i ever have a spare 100k to burn ill consider enlighten lol

but hopefully these techs will become cheaper, smaller and easier to use. who knows, in 10 years we could have handheld GC's that send the data and a photo straight to bluelight (and probably a gps to send your location to the cops too)

wasnt there talk earlier about getting the government non MDMA pills results tested, so at least we knew what was in the duds, and could watch out for a possible increase in RC pills or pills with dangerous ingredients? i think it was cowboy mac, did this idea get sat on by the governments big fat ass?
 
Originally posted by DeSpise
wasnt there talk earlier about getting the government non MDMA pills results tested, so at least we knew what was in the duds, and could watch out for a possible increase in RC pills or pills with dangerous ingredients? i think it was cowboy mac, did this idea get sat on by the governments big fat ass?

This was the crux of johnboy's presentation at Club Health 2004. Although we hope a GCMS program isn't too far away (years?), disclosing possibly dangerous adulterated results will probably come first and is something Enlighten are pushing for.
 
Just an idea on getting a better idea of wats in our pills, when someone gets charged with possession/trafficing etc.. doesnt the pills get analysed? and if so.. is that info available to the public through court docs? im not a lawyer or anything, but arent case files public?
 
Although a lot of the information that is collated by police departments could be theoretically obatined the time taken to get it would make it useless for harm minimisation as substances available tend to only last a very short time before something new is around.
 
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