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☮ Social ☮ PD Social Talk Thread: If 2020 Was the Dumpster, Can 2021 Be the Fire?

Buzz Lightbeer

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We do know how to lure you into these threads @Vastness 😏

I could feel it coming, but it really does strike me how you of all people could not be annoyed. Don't overthink the 'of all people' of course
 

psy997

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No it is an intrinsic problem with POW currencies, at least with most of the schemes that use POW. It works like a lottery, and the vast amount of the work burned by miners is discarded to heat providing absolutely nothing of value. It's like a lottery where all the money gets burned, and the winner gets a very fancy pokemon card that they can optionally sell on ebay. No matter if the energy comes from coal, the sun, or a fusion reactor, it's still a massive waste of energy that could have been used for something that adds value.

It's not strange to focus on BTC's energy consumption, what is strange is that hardly anyone is. So many people who are ostensibly concerned with climate change either completely don't want to take a look at it, or pull mental gymnastics to justify this colossal energy pig.

Not to mention the e-waste...

Personally, I don't think the less-than-ideal energy consumption of Bitcoin is enough to damn it. We have no realistic way of predicting the potential magnitude of positive impact resultant from the rise of Bitcoin. We're talking potential paradigm shifts, in numerous domains. It's difficult to imagine the first wave of consequences, let alone the second, third, and so on.
 

Vastness

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We do know how to lure you into these threads @Vastness 😏

I could feel it coming, but it really does strike me how you of all people could not be annoyed. Don't overthink the 'of all people' of course
Hah, OK I'm lured. And no worries, I'll take the "of all people" as a compliment. 😄

But this reveling in some sort of amazing genius persona is just extremely annoying, and I am opposed to the worshiping of just about any living human. Much of what he does is in my opinion PR stunts to raise money, shift public perception and get ludicrous tax cuts here and there.
You dislike his public persona. To me this is superficial. Consider also - Tesla has 0 marketing budget - so PR stunts in this case as effectively an extremely cost effective form of marketing, although to be honest I'm finding it hard to think of what "PR stunts" he's actually done, unless you just mean Twitter. A lot of people point to the Falcon Heavy launch as a PR stunt - it was not, at least not primarily, it was a test launch of a cutting edge heavy lift rocket.

Personally I'm convinced that anyone who can easily dismiss SpaceX and Tesla as "not that impressive" or useful or whatever just hasn't really looked into them enough. The amount of engineering leaps and technological innovation that has happened in such a short time is staggering. SpaceX is frankly in a different league to any other space company and has no serious competitors right now. Additionally, it's not a requirement that you buy into the value of travelling to Mars, or indeed, electric or self driving cars (although the latter is a lot harder for me to understand) for the technologies that these efforts will develop to have immense value in other fields (for example - Tesla battery and proprietary regenerative braking tech).

By many accounts Musk is difficult to work with and his huge ego is real, fine, if anyone here had actually worked with him and was saying they just don't like the dude, fine. I just roll my eyes at people ranting about and abstractly hating public figures they've never met, especially when the specifics of these complaints seem to be pretty vague. A far more interesting discussion obviously (IMO) would be the value of certain technological developments to the human race, but this is just short-circuited by Musk this, Musk that, whatever, oh he said something annoying on Twitter again, I'm fuming! 😉

An example I like to use to illustrate this is Donald Trump. Arguably, his own financial manipulations to set up his doomed casinos in Atlantic City and New York real estate empire were far more shady and morally dubious than anything Musk has done, and hurt a lot more people on the way up. Before they went bankrupt though, they probably employed a lot of people, brought other businesses to the region, whatever, but primarily, who here can say that if they could see a route to having what is essentially a part time job for millions of dollars a year, they wouldn't do it? Maybe some of us here (hopefully) would do things slightly differently, settle with less, cause less collateral damage, whatever, all well and good. I'm getting a bit sidetracked here but the point I'm trying to get to is that even though I personally think a lot of what Trump did back then (let's just forget about his political life entirely for purposes of this discussion) was probably immoral - I don't dislike him, I don't know him. I dislike some things he's done, for sure, but I admit I find myself just dissociating a little from any conversation where people seem to be really angry at him personally, he's so stupid, he this, he that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and interferes with any effort to reach a common understanding for why people do certain things, and how we can stop people from doing things that are detrimental to humanity as a whole - or how we can promote traits which are beneficial to humanity as a whole.

I feel like I'm risking diluting my point by bringing up Trump here but it's hard for me to see that Musk has done that much explicitly harmful to anyone... residents of Boca Chica who didn't want to move, yeah maybe, people who got burned by stock movements caused by Tweets, yeah, maybe, but cheap spaceflight and huge advances in electric cars and autonomous driving, seem like good things to me.

I'm not advocating hero worship obviously, just remaining objective about people we've never met. We always find it easiest to see in others the faults we most fear in ourselves - and I would say that applies to some peoples' fixation on Musk's ego, or sweeping statements about his or anyone else's intentions or inner world that don't seem to be directly based on anything he's actually said.

It just occurred to me I should probably add because it's easily pointed out that I almost certainly wouldn't bother wading into a discussion about Trump in the same way - because I don't think that Trump's actions have value in the same way, so just lazily disliking him as a person has less consequence and is arguably even beneficial in some ways. On the other hand, I do think that the science and engineering advances that have occurred in companies under Musk's leadership have a lot of value, and there's a danger of this value being dismissed as "fanboyism", whereas in most cases, I think (although I could be wrong) what some would label fanboyism is actually just enthusiasm for the works of a group of pioneering technology companies that happen to fall under the leadership of a certain polarising individual.



No it is an intrinsic problem with POW currencies, at least with most of the schemes that use POW. It works like a lottery, and the vast amount of the work burned by miners is discarded to heat providing absolutely nothing of value. It's like a lottery where all the money gets burned, and the winner gets a very fancy pokemon card that they can optionally sell on ebay. No matter if the energy comes from coal, the sun, or a fusion reactor, it's still a massive waste of energy that could have been used for something that adds value.

It's not strange to focus on BTC's energy consumption, what is strange is that hardly anyone is. So many people who are ostensibly concerned with climate change either completely don't want to take a look at it, or pull mental gymnastics to justify this colossal energy pig.

Not to mention the e-waste...
But... Bitcoin does have value. Yes, it has value because people believe it has value but ever since fiat currencies have been uncoupled from precious metals the same is true of fiat. If we could somehow get to a place where we didn't need capital for society to function, we would immediately eliminate a huge amount of arguably wasteful overhead in how human society functions, but given the fact that we seem to live in a capitalist world and there do not seem to be any easy routes to changing that, tokens of capital be they physical and issued by governments or virtual and issued by an algorithm serve a certain purpose, and cryptocurrencies exist because they have properties that fiat currencies do not, and are therefore valuable in different ways.

I wonder if there is a level of power consumption that would be acceptable to you? If the power consumption of Bitcoin-mining was closer to that of digital movement or tracking of fiat currencies, or perhaps other digital industries, would that make a difference?

Consider this also - Bitcoin (according to a quick google) consumes ~121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) a year. Youtube uses ~243.6 TWh a year, and if you check out that link you'll see an even more specific breakdown of exactly how much energy people are wasting by indulging arguably fairly useless interests.

Video media has a place for sure, there are things that can be communicated effectively by video that cannot be communicated by text. But, not nearly as much as the insane volume of (again, arguably) fairly vapid, repetitive content that exists on YouTube, influencer vlogs, lazy "top ten" compilations, endlessly regurgitated snippets and recuts, of equally vapid content... Should we start trying to curb "useless" video media on the internet because of the environmental impact, replacing redundant videos with text, just flat out deleting huge swaths of some of the aforementioned categories with intrinsic value that is fairly unclear? Perhaps, but if it's strange that hardly anyone is focusing on Bitcoin's energy consumption, it's surely even stranger that hardly anyone is focusing on the energy-waste and consequent environmental impact of video media, which is twice that of Bitcoin on YouTube alone.

If we keep digging we can surely find more arguably wasteful uses of energy facilitated by the internet and digitization. Digital music and/or audio recordings? Not really essential to life, let's scrap it. For that matter, high speed internet is itself a bit of an energy drain, maybe we should all go back to dialup.
 
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Xorkoth

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Some great posts in the past 2 pages. :)

Man I felt awful the past 2 days, yesterday my fever was going between 99 and 102. Today I seem to feel a little better, woke up without a fever. My body is still sore but less so. My lower back is killing me from laying in bed for 2 days. I hope I got lucky and this means I will not be sick very long. Some people I know who got covid were only sick a few days. But then some people were sick for weeks.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Hah, OK I'm lured. And no worries, I'll take the "of all people" as a compliment. 😄


You dislike his public persona. To me this is superficial. Consider also - Tesla has 0 marketing budget - so PR stunts in this case as effectively an extremely cost effective form of marketing, although to be honest I'm finding it hard to think of what "PR stunts" he's actually done, unless you just mean Twitter. A lot of people point to the Falcon Heavy launch as a PR stunt - it was not, at least not primarily, it was a test launch of a cutting edge heavy lift rocket.

Personally I'm convinced that anyone who can easily dismiss SpaceX and Tesla as "not that impressive" or useful or whatever just hasn't really looked into them enough. The amount of engineering leaps and technological innovation that has happened in such a short time is staggering. SpaceX is frankly in a different league to any other space company and has no serious competitors right now. Additionally, it's not a requirement that you buy into the value of travelling to Mars, or indeed, electric or self driving cars (although the latter is a lot harder for me to understand) for the technologies that these efforts will develop to have immense value in other fields (for example - Tesla battery and proprietary regenerative braking tech).

By many accounts Musk is difficult to work with and his huge ego is real, fine, if anyone here had actually worked with him and was saying they just don't like the dude, fine. I just roll my eyes at people ranting about and abstractly hating public figures they've never met, especially when the specifics of these complaints seem to be pretty vague. A far more interesting discussion obviously (IMO) would be the value of certain technological developments to the human race, but this is just short-circuited by Musk this, Musk that, whatever, oh he said something annoying on Twitter again, I'm fuming! 😉

An example I like to use to illustrate this is Donald Trump. Arguably, his own financial manipulations to set up his doomed casinos in Atlantic City and New York real estate empire were far more shady and morally dubious than anything Musk has done, and hurt a lot more people on the way up. Before they went bankrupt though, they probably employed a lot of people, brought other businesses to the region, whatever, but primarily, who here can say that if they could see a route to having what is essentially a part time job for millions of dollars a year, they wouldn't do it? Maybe some of us here (hopefully) would do things slightly differently, settle with less, cause less collateral damage, whatever, all well and good. I'm getting a bit sidetracked here but the point I'm trying to get to is that even though I personally think a lot of what Trump did back then (let's just forget about his political life entirely for purposes of this discussion) was probably immoral - I don't dislike him, I don't know him. I dislike some things he's done, for sure, but I admit I find myself just dissociating a little from any conversation where people seem to be really angry at him personally, he's so stupid, he this, he that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and interferes with any effort to reach a common understanding for why people do certain things, and how we can stop people from doing things that are detrimental to humanity as a whole - or how we can promote traits which are beneficial to humanity as a whole.

I feel like I'm risking diluting my point by bringing up Trump here but it's hard for me to see that Musk has done that much explicitly harmful to anyone... residents of Boca Chica who didn't want to move, yeah maybe, people who got burned by stock movements caused by Tweets, yeah, maybe, but cheap spaceflight and huge advances in electric cars and autonomous driving, seem like good things to me.

I'm not advocating hero worship obviously, just remaining objective about people we've never met. We always find it easiest to see in others the faults we most fear in ourselves - and I would say that applies to some peoples' fixation on Musk's ego, or sweeping statements about his or anyone else's intentions or inner world that don't seem to be directly based on anything he's actually said.

It just occurred to me I should probably add because it's easily pointed out that I almost certainly wouldn't bother wading into a discussion about Trump in the same way - because I don't think that Trump's actions have value in the same way, so just lazily disliking him as a person has less consequence and is arguably even beneficial in some ways. On the other hand, I do think that the science and engineering advances that have occurred in companies under Musk's leadership have a lot of value, and there's a danger of this value being dismissed as "fanboyism", whereas in most cases, I think (although I could be wrong) what some would label fanboyism is actually just enthusiasm for the works of a group of pioneering technology companies that happen to fall under the leadership of a certain polarising individual.
Hah, no worries about bringing Trump in, funnily enough quite similar dynamics are at play there. An inkling that public perception may be somewhat clouded... -> so I pushed in the opposite direction.
Firstly, how is disliking a public persona per definition superficial? On what basis should we be liking or disliking quote on quote famous people then? Surely not on a fairly constricted 'achievements' basis alone. I will say though that much of my frustration is fueled by constant over the top praise for Musk for much more than what he is, and what his actual personal achievements are, namely the infallible genius bit. This might be a key disagreement we're in, but I can assure you the distinction between possible personas is always in the back of my mind, I don't care whether or not he is a great guy to be around, and it's also not what we're discussing. This could possibly be a whole topic on its own hah.

You did rightly point out that I might not be armed well enough for these kinds of arguments, and I am well aware, I was close to saying it myself yesterday but I withheld in the knowledge that one should not be admitting weakness if unnecessary! But I have an excellent feel for 'rightly' liking or disliking certain characters, along my own standards of course.

Okay, so there have been years of complaints about working conditions at Tesla, programmers, engineers, factory workers etc.... Mainly about a highly toxic environment, racial and sexual orientation stuff. When workers tried to form a union, Tesla was sabotaging those efforts (like intimidation) and many were fired over the coming months. Regular reports over a toxic and very masculine atmosphere as well as quite dangerous (employees suffering much more injuries than any similar companies) and very strenuous factory working conditions appear.
Musk has also been repeatedly making all sorts of promises constantly, like every couple of months he's saying that in x amount of time he's saying that fully autonomous level 5 self driving cars will be available. If he were to know anything about AI, he would know that Tesla is far far off. He's also often implying like the Tesla autonomous driving is completely safe, so there are many instances of people taking a nap and such, which is extremely unsafe and has led to multiple accidents. The language surrounding the whole thing is also massively misleading, these constant promises and consistent use of 'self driving' is plain wrong and endangers people for some clout and the illusion that their technology is somehow superior, non-surprisingly other companies have repeatedly called them out on this. Tesla's self driving module has also been consistently worse than others over the years, often ranking very low on these tests. When it comes to the cars themselves I'm not really up to date, but I recall having read a lot of terrible comments regarding different Tesla models, namely Tesla 3 and Tesla S, all experiencing severe issues.

One other thing that massively annoys me is just him throwing out all sorts of random statements and one liners just to get to the top of the of the headlines. Stuff like Skynet will be a reality, AI will turn deadly (all those time limits have for sure by now, for some reason he has an inkling to say IN 5 YEARS), AI will apparently be the biggest threat to humanity soon, many ludicrous Mars statements, those time limits appear to be changing on the daily as well. It's also not true that Tesla has 0 dollars invested in marketing, they have 0 dollars invested in advertising, which is much different, their marketing budget is huge. Musk also has some strong astroturfing operations going on, trying to reinforce this fan and even cult like mentality for many.

Then the whole coronavirus thing was quite a mess at his factories, but I can forgive him for that. Does anyone remember the time when he was saying he would make thousands of ventilators for hospitals in the US (after a lot of public pressure on Twitter of course)? Well apparently he never made even one, and Tesla even had the nerve to make a promotional video on making ventilators using Tesla parts, but none were ever made or given. Typical!

This is all I have time for now, but I'll continue tonight, I just found a good article that refreshed my memory on some stuff ;)
I can easily find sources for all of these claims, and will do so later.
 

Xorkoth

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I wonder if there is a level of power consumption that would be acceptable to you? If the power consumption of Bitcoin-mining was closer to that of digital movement or tracking of fiat currencies, or perhaps other digital industries, would that make a difference?

I think the criticism was more the WAY in which BTC uses power. You have millions of machines spending energy trying to solve a computationally intense algorithm, and everyone who doesn't solve it, that energy was wasted. There are, in fact, cryptocurrencies that are not wasteful of energy. Take NANO, for example. It is energy efficient, the transfers happen instantly, and there are no transaction fees. It is actually an improvement upon credit card processors as a currency technology. The wasteful nature of the processing power used in BTC transactions seems unnecessary to me. Since BTC, there have been improvements (of course there have, BTC was the very first). It's my hope that at some point the current hierarchy of cryptocurrencies will change. Right now only BTC is coupled to fiat currencies, and all the rest are coupled to BTC. So if BTC's value falls, everything falls. This is unfortunate because BTC is far from the ideal cryptocurrency technology to actually be used as currency.
 

Img_9999

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The man who can see outside the box is a dangerous man when he uses it only to his own advantage while trying to style himself as this messianic figure who is going to led us to colonize the galaxy. Maybe he is just a puppet in this grand game of life maybe human society is structured this way that for us to colonize other planets we need a ruthless company to spearhead the efforts first.

I completely agree with this. I've always seen this man as the closest thing to a "supervillain" in real life.
 

Cream Gravy?

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huge advances in electric cars and autonomous driving
These 'advances' seem to be coming up a little short in the modern era... The best Teslas can drive what, 250 miles before they need a five hour recharge? I'm just gonna level with y'all, I've lived in Texas most of my life; with our power grid down for the week prior and a state of emergency in effect... how in the FUCK would having an electric vehicle be practical? Are they gonna start offering multi-thousand dollar backup batteries you can swap out to make it the 5-600 miles in an emergency evacuation? What about when you're stuck in traffic and HAVE to run the A/C because it's 110F outside?

Until they can make car batteries that can meet gasoline mileage standards, electric cars are dead in the water. Both of my cars run on gas and can go further on a single tank, albeit both weigh well under 2600 lbs and lack modern 'safety' features and gadgets to weigh them down.

We should remove safety regulations, make cars lighter and stiffer. A 90s Honda Civic gets better mileage than a modern Prius... I wrecked an early 90s 240sx at almost 100mph and had no seatbelt on (no airbags either), and crawled out the broken window without a scratch. You do that in a modern car and chances are the safety features will suffocate/kill you before you can finish crashing.



On the topic of BTC, I traded what BTC Cash I had on coinbase for actual BTC. So now I have $2 in BTC yay! I'm a stockholder in the great Ponzi scheme! In all fairness I honestly just don't want BTC to become actual 'currency' because of fear over the instability it might bring to fiat currencies. Hell, the EU can't even keep the Euro together (lol Greece) and for that matter, BTC was worth only $3k prior to the pandemic in 2019. It's like a stock in a company, except... that company doesn't exist, it's only as valuable as all the yuppies sitting at home day-trading say it is.

Do y'all legitimately believe that BTC could replace fiat currencies? What happens to all my fiat liquid assets? Are my thousands of USD in savings gonna be worthless and only people who bought into BTC two years ago will be able to buy any equity? In an ideal future, the world would be unified, under one currency; however, humans are intrinsically self-defeating, divisive, violent. We will not unify in our lifetime, ergo how could BTC take the place of fiat currencies that already struggle to prop up other fake assets?

Wow you're right!

Jesus christ lol
lol ol' man Xorky! I'm so happy you're still here after all this time <3 feel better soon mate.
 

Xorkoth

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These 'advances' seem to be coming up a little short in the modern era... The best Teslas can drive what, 250 miles before they need a five hour recharge? I'm just gonna level with y'all, I've lived in Texas most of my life; with our power grid down for the week prior and a state of emergency in effect... how in the FUCK would having an electric vehicle be practical? Are they gonna start offering multi-thousand dollar backup batteries you can swap out to make it the 5-600 miles in an emergency evacuation? What about when you're stuck in traffic and HAVE to run the A/C because it's 110F outside?

Until they can make car batteries that can meet gasoline mileage standards, electric cars are dead in the water. Both of my cars run on gas and can go further on a single tank, albeit both weigh well under 2600 lbs and lack modern 'safety' features and gadgets to weigh them down.

This is true, for now, but electric cars are certainly the future. Great strides are being made. Given some time, electric cars will be able to compete with gas cars for distance and the charging time will go way down. In fact Tesla already has "supercharging" stations of certain areas with a lot of Teslas that can do a full charge in 25 or 40 minutes (I forget which). There are some grocery stores where I live with charging stations which can apparently get you like a half charge while you're shopping.

Electric cars actually have a lot less routine maintenance on engine-related components than gas cars, too. And if we move away from coal power and into nuclear and renewables, the positive impacts on the planet will be profound. I think it is inevitable that in time, electric cars will be able to compete with gas cars for range and price, and then it will become a no-brainer.

Do y'all legitimately believe that BTC could replace fiat currencies?

No, no way. The main problem is its insane volatility. That, and the slow speed of transactions and cost of making said transactions. But even if this mystical "lightning network" ever actually happens, the price volatility will still prevent it from being used as a daily currency.

I mean I realize fiat currencies fluctuate in value, too, but very slowly, and only in relation to each other.
 

Img_9999

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Wow you're right!

Jesus christ lol
Yaay, happy belated BL cake day Xork ... hehe. I know all of us appreciate your presence here <3.

Did you end up taking a PCR test? I hope you feel better soon ! How is your girl feeling? The upside is , if she does end up getting covid, she will realize that being young and healthy the chances of getting a severe case are very very small, and she will be immunized by exposition, so anxiety about it should be finally gone, lol.


Do y'all legitimately believe that BTC could replace fiat currencies? What happens to all my fiat liquid assets? Are my thousands of USD in savings gonna be worthless and only people who bought into BTC two years ago will be able to buy any equity? In an ideal future, the world would be unified, under one currency; however, humans are intrinsically self-defeating, divisive, violent. We will not unify in our lifetime, ergo how could BTC take the place of fiat currencies that already struggle to prop up other fake assets?

Nah, I don't think that is ever possible. The "store of value" narrative makes more sense to me. Digital gold is closer to an actual real world usage. Other cryptocurrencies will probably take over as an alternative to international bank transfer and credit card payments, because in the current banking systems moving money across borders is not as easy as crypto makes it possible. But BTC is not efficient as a payment method, so I don't see it replacing fiat in the foreseeable future. Or ever, in my opinion.
 

Xorkoth

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Did you end up taking a PCR test? I hope you feel better soon ! How is your girl feeling? The upside is , if she does end up getting covid, she will realize that being young and healthy the chances of getting a severe case are very very small, and she will be immunized by exposition, so anxiety about it should be finally gone, lol.

I did take a test, it's weird, I got my test form the same place as everyone else (and that I have gotten before). All my bandmates now have positive results even when they got them before me. One of them got his results in 30 minutes. When I finished doing my test the lady was like now this will take up to 7 days, we don't do rapid tests anymore. Same exact place. Weird. So I'm still waiting but it's a foregone conclusion at this point. I know when I got it and all the people I was there with are now confirmed.

My girlfriend isn't showing any symptoms yet, she got a test yesterday but also waiting for results. She's making us both wear masks around the house and is staying in her room most of the day. I don't actually hope she gets it but if she doesn't, then she's going to still be really scared and try to get me to not do anything until vaccines happen. Though she is actually in the next vaccine group, it turns out, since she works in agricultural supply in a warehouse. Not sure when they're going to move to group 3. If she did get it now, it would probably make both of our lives easier, after a period of it sucking.
 

Xorkoth

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I completely agree with this. I've always seen this man as the closest thing to a "supervillain" in real life.

I'm worlds away from idolizing the guy, but he doesn't strike me as a supervillain by any means.

Now Jeff Bezos... I could comfortably call that guy a villain. He certainly looks the part, too.
 

Img_9999

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Good thing she'll be able to, in theory, get the vaccine soon. I got the vaccine myself a few weeks ago. Vaccination process is going pretty quickly here, mostly because we don't have the geopolitical pressure to exclusively deal with "western world" suppliers Moderna and Pfizer. So when the Pfizer stock ran out, the government imported a bunch of vaccines from China, and will be getting the Russian vaccine soon too. Kinda weird to think how politics can get in the way of health. Then again, public health is definitely a political issue. Regardless, I really hope the vaccine helps us to put a swift stop to this whole thing.

The pandemic has been really rough for people with anxiety. My girlfriend suffers from a generalized anxiety disorder, and for the first months of the pandemic she was also really scared about it, to the point that she almost developed some sort of agoraphobia. When strict lockdown restrictions were lifted here in the second semester of 2020, she still avoided going out at all costs. But eventually she started relaxing and now she's mostly over it completely. I wish you both patience and strength to deal with this. It's taxing for sure. I know that in one way or another, this last year has taken a mental health toll in all of us.
 
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perpetualdawn

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Personally, I don't think the less-than-ideal energy consumption of Bitcoin is enough to damn it. We have no realistic way of predicting the potential magnitude of positive impact resultant from the rise of Bitcoin. We're talking potential paradigm shifts, in numerous domains. It's difficult to imagine the first wave of consequences, let alone the second, third, and so on.
I think it is easily enough to damn it because we already have far superior and more energy efficient currencies - crypto and otherwise. I mean, it's not just less than ideal, it's colossally wasteful. Please look at some numbers:

Bitcoin network:
- the currency is using 121TWh/year at this time.
- BTC is supporting something like 144 million transactions per year
- This averages out to around 858kWh per transaction! The cost of one BTC transaction is equal to one American home's energy use for one month. Please note, this is not the cost to mine one bitcoin, this is the averaged cost of a single transaction.
- about $25 fee for transaction, and takes over 10 minutes to confirm.

Compare this to the visa network:
- 185 billion transactions per year
- Average energy cost per transaction 1.5Wh (572 000x more efficient than bitcoin)

If visa was the only other choice vs bitcoin, I'd go with Visa/fiat/digital banking because it's so much more efficient, fast, convenient. The main thing is that I care more about our planet than having a decentralized currency. And bitcoin isn't even that decentralized given that most of the hash power is in the hands of few large miners.

Bitcoin is a bad currency by any measure. Everyone is so focused on Bitcoin and thinks that we have to give it a free pass because it might lead to something better... well that better version is already here. We can have our cake and eat it too, we don't need to rely on centralized solutions like Visa. There are many cryptocurrencies that are decentralized, noninflationary, very energy efficient, low transaction fees, and fast.

Ethereum: is using POW and is basically just as wasteful as BTC. But at least they do have a path forward to switching to a POS scheme, which will use 99% less energy, when it comes

Stellar Lumens: uses a Federated Byzantine Agreement scheme. This is far more efficient and scalable. Transactions cost pennies and are fast (5s) and can process many thousands of transactions per second. I don't have energy stats handy, but it's multiple orders of magnitude more efficient than BTC. Ripple is meant to use roughly the same scheme.

Cardano: 37000x more efficient than BTC

Tezos: average transaction fee is $0.00232, uses delegated proof of stake (dPOS) for consensus which is many orders of magnitude more energy efficient than BTC

Nano: as mentioned by @Xorkoth uses a DAG and is super fast, scalable, free transactions (or just really cheap?), and extremely low energy usage.

This isn't a shill post, I don't own any of those cryptos. I've omitted the one project I'm hyped on because I don't want the purpose of this post to be about shilling my own pet project.

... I'm just scraping the surface here, there are many projects that are already solving this energy problem. We don't need bitcoin. What bitcoin has going for it is brand name recognition, hype, and belief. But those things can change, especially when the fundamentals (efficiency, scalability, utility) have major issues that are already solved by other cryptos.
 

psy997

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 9, 2012
Messages
2,722
Location
noitacoL
I think it is easily enough to damn it because we already have far superior and more energy efficient currencies - crypto and otherwise. I mean, it's not just less than ideal, it's colossally wasteful. Please look at some numbers:

Bitcoin network:
- the currency is using 121TWh/year at this time.
- BTC is supporting something like 144 million transactions per year
- This averages out to around 858kWh per transaction! The cost of one BTC transaction is equal to one American home's energy use for one month. Please note, this is not the cost to mine one bitcoin, this is the averaged cost of a single transaction.
- about $25 fee for transaction, and takes over 10 minutes to confirm.

Compare this to the visa network:
- 185 billion transactions per year
- Average energy cost per transaction 1.5Wh (572 000x more efficient than bitcoin)

If visa was the only other choice vs bitcoin, I'd go with Visa/fiat/digital banking because it's so much more efficient, fast, convenient. The main thing is that I care more about our planet than having a decentralized currency. And bitcoin isn't even that decentralized given that most of the hash power is in the hands of few large miners.

Bitcoin is a bad currency by any measure. Everyone is so focused on Bitcoin and thinks that we have to give it a free pass because it might lead to something better... well that better version is already here. We can have our cake and eat it too, we don't need to rely on centralized solutions like Visa. There are many cryptocurrencies that are decentralized, noninflationary, very energy efficient, low transaction fees, and fast.

Ethereum: is using POW and is basically just as wasteful as BTC. But at least they do have a path forward to switching to a POS scheme, which will use 99% less energy, when it comes

Stellar Lumens: uses a Federated Byzantine Agreement scheme. This is far more efficient and scalable. Transactions cost pennies and are fast (5s) and can process many thousands of transactions per second. I don't have energy stats handy, but it's multiple orders of magnitude more efficient than BTC. Ripple is meant to use roughly the same scheme.

Cardano: 37000x more efficient than BTC

Tezos: average transaction fee is $0.00232, uses delegated proof of stake (dPOS) for consensus which is many orders of magnitude more energy efficient than BTC

Nano: as mentioned by @Xorkoth uses a DAG and is super fast, scalable, free transactions (or just really cheap?), and extremely low energy usage.

This isn't a shill post, I don't own any of those cryptos. I've omitted the one project I'm hyped on because I don't want the purpose of this post to be about shilling my own pet project.

... I'm just scraping the surface here, there are many projects that are already solving this energy problem. We don't need bitcoin. What bitcoin has going for it is brand name recognition, hype, and belief. But those things can change, especially when the fundamentals (efficiency, scalability, utility) have major issues that are already solved by other cryptos.

The problem with your argument is that Bitcoin is the crypto with momentum. Not even Ethereum is close to it, and for the foreseeable future, nothing else will be.

Not to be rude, but your argument seems naively idealistic. The numbers don't matter IMO.
 

perpetualdawn

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
2,647
Location
uʍɐdlɐnʇǝdɹǝp
@psy997 yes bitcoin has the momentum, and this is why I originally said in the comment that kicked off this whole discussion that I hope it fails, but that at this point such a hope is pissing into the wind.

The numbers don't matter because it's nothing to do with the numbers and facts at this point, and everything to do with hype. And this is the tragedy because the numbers point to a destructive hungry ghost. Oh well. Let's get rich! Lambos! Moon! Elon!

Seriously, I don't want to dissuade any of my fellow bluelighters from getting rich on bitcoin. I hope you do. You're the kind of people I want to do well off of this. I just want people to know whats actually involved in this game and for the knowledge to spread. And I hope you're all wise enough to get off the train early when the cracks begin to show so you can actually take some big profits.
 
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