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Bupe PAWS: Bupe vs heroin: what is causing this?

J

jjacobsen

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
80
I had a 5 year H habit, last few years 1g/day, and now have been slowly tapering off Suboxone. for FOUR months ( next week) after using it to get off.

Is feeling this bad on .5 just what happens because of my length / amount h habit, or is almost 4 months long enough to be so Suboxone dependent I will have the hell these people on maintenance have?

As I understand it, I'm not in PAWS from H, that's not gonna happen now my PAWS will be that of a Suboxone user, right? I'm just a little early and confused because it's been bad LIKE THIS (I tried once to go .25) after only 4 days at .5 and couldn't on day 2, by night. I do have Kratom. Haven't used it, as yet. Have Clonidine and Gabapentin and Ambien, too, but also saving. Using 1mg Xanax to sleep for a week but I'm wary of it.

In addition to any other advice that comes to mind, I'd appreciate knowing what exactly is causing my symptoms. Withdrawal from bupe, or the onset of PAWS because so little bupe? The length of my h habit? I've done SO many hours of research and I'm just confused.
Thanks so much.
 
Usually PAWS comes after you have stopped taking anything and have been clean for a month or so(on something long acting or accumulative). By tapering down one reduces the overall discomfort with acute W/D, but only after stopping everything, and the brain is completely clean, does the slow replacing of neurotransmitters or rather the upregulating of Opioid receptors begin happening, and hence, the slowing of the intensity of PAWS (not always in a linear fashion). Having done a decent amount of H for a good while will also be one of the main factors of the W/D length and intensity, probably more so regarding the PAWS as you've done some work with the semi-rapid Sub taper cutting down on the acute a good bit.

Here is some reference on how other's dealt with their situations, some similar to yours.:



One more good one about "Fake" PAWS/ mild low level stress :

https://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/840528-My-story-in-brief-and-some-advice-for-PAWS
 
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The dirty secret is PAWS isn't really a "real" thing, even though it's pretty damn real. It's a Syndrome that comes after your Acute Withdrawal. Sometimes. To some people, at various times, possibly but not necessarily part of Protracted Withdrawal and I'd bet totally allowable without an acute withdrawal that's Acute like we usually imagine.

At rehabs I heard that it hits on the "2"s, or 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years post withdrawal. (That's because your designer was working in raw binary, maybe. Or maybe there is a pattern in 2, 14, 60, 730 days; most likely people in rehabs are terribly superstitious and like easy alliteration and slogans.)

Maybe you've heard of a "pink cloud?" Or maybe you've been "emotionally labile" after some ordeal. Or once a major stressor is finally out of the way, a slow depression kicks in. Personally I think all of that is just the PAWS from different animals.

If you stretch and wave your hands, you can blame one of the monoamines, either dopamine if you're addiction-focused, or serotonin if you're depression-focused. If you know your opioid potentiators you could blame glutamate and the NMDA receptors. But no, you aren't deficient, there's nothing you can eat to replenish anything, you just have to adjust.

I think the longer you eat/drink/smoke/fuck whatever it is, the more habits and patterns go with it, and the more that you have to reset when you stop shooting/snorting whatever, whether or not it's "addictive" the way most people think. It has nothing to do with direct receptor interactions or downregulations and histone deacetylations; it's the same as moving to a new city by yourself to work a mundane job you don't want. Mild, low-level stress that just drags.

Maybe there's a case that slowly easing through the transition just prolongs the real pernicious, mild suffering, and doing it hard at least gives you a suffering reference point to compare and get out of the way.
 
It's probably just anxiety you need to learn how to manage. Not dismissing what is is just saying mind over matter is what I think is the main issue here
 
Funny you all said quite different things but all are helpful. Thanks so much! Yeah I watched my brother overthink it and I sometimes think I am but then i go and do something I could have avoided if I knew enough like inducting too high (12mg). One of the hardest things is--and others have said the same on Bluelight--my memory is horrible on opiates and subs so I do hours of reading and then forget (like what Jekyl said about PAWS not starting til after you've been off a bit)

Thanks for the links! (Which I'm sure I have read and forgotten but will read again).
 
Tapering suboxone causes mild WD symptoms even before DC'ing the medication completely.

It is also possible to experience PAWS during a taper especially when you get below the 2 mg mark.

Your body is reacting to the fact that your receptors have less bupe filling them up thus causing your symptoms.

In my experience this really occurs below the 2-4 mg mark and can take at least a few months of stabilizing at 0.5 mg for it to go away.
 
Wow that is really helpful Prescott?I had no idea PAWS can happen during taper at low doses (in fact some seem to be saying it only starts a month or so after jumping off).

A couple months at .5?! Yikes! Isn?t the difficulty of withdrawing from a six month suboxone taper not worth the stabilizing, as opposed to getting off in a little more than 4 months. I really wish I knew which was easier, because for all people keep saying ?mild? withdrawals of subs, it sure doesn?t feel that mild. I can?t imagine something twice as bad as when I tried to go to .25, but then I?ve never had to cold turkey off H, as this was my first habit.

Thanks friend.
 
How you feel now could depend on how big your drops are. For example, going from 1mg a day suddenly to 0.5mg a day is a 50% drop, so it would not be surprising to feel shitty for awhile until you readjust. They say smaller drops like around 10% are much much more manageable... But this can be hard to do with Suboxone strips because the pieces you'd have to cut would be too small.

Same with going from 0.5mg down to 0.25mg a day.

Basically the end of the taper can be difficult because the % of each drop is getting bigger and bigger. At some point some people just get annoyed with tapering once they get low enough and just jump off completely.
 
Wow it?s weird and delightful how unlike almost any other messaging / commenting / posting on the internet about anything, people on Bluelight, at least here in opiates / bupe, are all so helpful and compassionate!

I was wondering about that because I keep hearing 25% reduction and I?m thinking, do these people have some scientific equipment I don?t have to be that precise?! Luckily for me, I do have a couple of the 4mg strips, which are same size as the 8, so easier to get small doses. I?m going to try to do .38 next instead of .25. If the reduction is that small hopefully 4 days will be enough? I?m antsy about not being on too long.

Btw, it?s worth noting these strips expired 3 years ago. I did some research and most seem to say should be fine, like most meds, but my brother wonders if the bupe might collect into one area of the strip or something, because it has faint blotches / ie uneven coloring in little patches / swirls.

Thanks again.
 
jjacobsen said:
Wow that is really helpful Prescott?I had no idea PAWS can happen during taper at low doses (in fact some seem to be saying it only starts a month or so after jumping off).

A couple months at .5?! Yikes! Isn?t the difficulty of withdrawing from a six month suboxone taper not worth the stabilizing, as opposed to getting off in a little more than 4 months. I really wish I knew which was easier, because for all people keep saying ?mild? withdrawals of subs, it sure doesn?t feel that mild. I can?t imagine something twice as bad as when I tried to go to .25, but then I?ve never had to cold turkey off H, as this was my first habit.

Thanks friend.
Click to expand...

WD's, PAWS and generalized discomfort is normal even during an extremely slow taper. Just because it can take a long time to stabilize does not mean I suggest extending your weaning schedule. I think it is helpful to understand these possibilities and instead try and power through it. Getting off suboxone sucks but is better than staying on it the rest of your life.
 
jjacobsen said:
Btw, it?s worth noting these strips expired 3 years ago. I did some research and most seem to say should be fine, like most meds, but my brother wonders if the bupe might collect into one area of the strip or something, because it has faint blotches / ie uneven coloring in little patches / swirls.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...


I think there are a few variables about those expired strips, like were they exposed to light?, moisture?, heat?, all the above?. I'm sure you can see how the speculation might fall short of factual answer.
 
When I was coming off subs, I decided to use heroin again to deal with cutting my sub dose to 0 and just cold turkey'd the heroin after the sub wd was over. I made sure to get healthy first when I was on bupe maintainence so I could follow through with that plan.
 
Yeah we?ll never know if the strips have degraded unless I have to do subs all over again in the future (especially because it read of people who did things like keep them in hot car all summer and they ?were fine? )

Yeah I wish I could try the h method but don?t fully trust myself.

I tried forever to find answers to this: I?ve heard WDs are different for everyone and come and go in PAWS but why are mine ROTATING?! First I was exhausted unable to move and chills; then for last 3 days (increasingly! Though same .5 dose for 8 days now!) I literally felt like after one comes down from a week of some kind of speed (I did once) ? teeth and lips buzzing, body buzzing, wanting to bite lips / pick at hands. What the hell?! Not even Xanax stopped it last night.

Wishing you well.
 
i don't want to discourage you just warn you. Jumping off from 0.5 mg of bupe is going to be rough. I would try to go lower. I hated WD from subs so much i went on fent patches and cut them down smaller and smaller, this was much easier than WD from bupe
 
clean now but need KRATOM help

just to update everyone. it took me 5 months to taper off the subs, from 12mg induction, down 1mg per week, with estra week here and there when i thought it necessary. All the way down to 1mg, then .75, then .5, then . 38, then .25, all the way down to .112, and then .08.
this is my second day clean. i'm much less tortured than i thought i'd be.--is that because of the careful slow tapering? Does that mean my PAWS won't last very long? All I can say is get Kratom! it works wonders, truly. i'm wondering if anyone know how long i can use the kratom before i develop a dependednce/need more. I had a good system of only usng 4g twice a day, then resting all night. BUt now that i'm off completlely the pain and exhaustion are worse, and i need between 5 and 7g of the kratom, three times / day. I had a good system where i take 2 days off the kratom , switching to clonodine /gabapentin for 2 days to reset tolelrance. I ALSO alter strains.
my question: how much longer can i afford to take dratom everyday??? I don't want to have to go through ANOTHER TAPER and withdrawal. Any number of days straight you know is safe? Cuz now that i'm n the crunch week post kicking it it's not an ideal time to take 2 days off! Thanks so much!
 
Hey JJ, glad to see you made it all the way down! .08, well done sir.

The problem is Kratom is just another formulation of opioid-like goodness with a little extra pep thrown in. Everybody starts at 2 oz and ends up at over a pound. I'm not exaggerating here either, check the search engine (or google kratom + bluelight).
The major active ingredient in Kratom is 7 Hydroxy-Mytraginine and it's 17 times more potent than Morphine. I like your gabapentin day off system, just don't go any higher on the amounts and work on adding more days to your gaba break cycle. Unfortunately it can grab a hold of you like all the others. Some think it has a more protracted W/D than conventional opioids :\

Keep Up the Good Work
 
Thanks for the response Jekyl! Just to clarify, you said "everybody starts at 2oz"". Am I being dense converting weights? I take between 4-7g at a time, 2 or 3 times a day. Do you mean 2 oz a day? If so, that makes me still well under an oz a day. Just trying to figure out the specifics, because I did indeed research Kratom, but unfortunately everybody talking about its withdrawal or tolerance were taking it for way longer than me. I only worry because I'm nohwere near well enough to take an off day or two. Here's hoping that tapering down so far and so slowly makes the withdrawals way less severe and lengthy than so many here have described, vis-a-vis suboxone. Thanks again!
 
No sorry man, that was just a bad example of how everybody starts small and doesn't like the taste, gets Nauseous, but ends up on huge amounts eventually. Usually sooner than later. I'm sure your fine, I just didn't want you to think that because it's not conventional and all natural that one could get a free pass and go nuts with no consequences. You did your homework and have been taking days off or at least attempting to so you sound like you're on the right track. It's just been a long day so I'm a little punchy. I should have said xx grams to a lb over x months. You sound like you got a good head on your shoulders and I'm sure you'll navigate your way just fine after coming this far. Keep it up:)
 
you've been really helpful man, not just here but before, too. I'm going to pay it forward by writing a painstakingly specific account when I'm done for anyone who had the specific questions I had that either were very hard to find.
 
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