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Opioids PAWs and WD

M

mike.vick

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
972
Opiate withdrawal sucks. I did my last heroin on June 1 did 5 suboxones until June 11th and have been using Kratom and lopermide and clonidine and tianeptine since then. I feel like I am not over withdrawals yet even though I've withdrawn a ton. Is this PAWs? If not, how bad is PAWs and when does it go away? Thanks.
 
Your still using opiates so yes your still withdrawing. I am not an expert on tianeptine but I think its opiate is it not? Loperamide is an opiate for sure and will cause withdrawal with extended use. If you want off completely you have to cut out all opiates.
 
Yeah they are minor opiates, but I still feel shitty. I've felt like I've WD'd for way too many days. It's probably the minor opiates not letting my body reset all the way, but they are all I have to keep my sanity right now.
 
Ive struggled with this as well. Thinking i could use loperamide for a week or so until my detox was complete, but to my surprise when i quit the lope i began withdrawing again. I believe its well established that even though lope doesn't cross the Blood brain barrier it is indeed an opiate and will cause your detox to be prolonged. Not that it isn't a valuable detox tool, because it is. My advice is to wean off loperamide if possible. This is what i did and when i jumped off the lope the withdrawals that i had were minor, but still present. Hope this helps.
 
you should have tapered w/ the subs.
by using kratom and loperamide you are prolonging the withdrawal process since they are opioids w/ a dependence liability as well.
 
tightlywound said:
you should have tapered w/ the subs.
by using kratom and loperamide you are prolonging the withdrawal process since they are opioids w/ a dependence liability as well.
Click to expand...

This
Plus tianeptine can be a powerful opioid in high doses

Your best bet is to taper with the kratom and stop taking the other drugs.
Good luck :)
 
It always amazes me when people recommend things like lope and kratom as some kind of "cure" for opioid withdrawl. The only reason they help at all is because they are opioids themselves and therefore as has been said above unless they are used as a tool to taper with the wihdrawls will just go on and on at a low level. Since depending on what opioids were used in the first place these are probably not strong enough to totally eliminate withdrawl it just goes on and on at a low level for months.

They can help as part of a taper plan but if just used ad hoc to combat feeling rough they just make things worse IMHO.

The only meds worth taking to ease the pain of WDs are things that don't have any direct opioid activity themselves such as pregabalin, clonidine short term benzos etc.... Otherwise you're just going round and round in circles....
 
BigG said:
The only meds worth taking to ease the pain of WDs are things that don't have any direct opioid activity themselves ..
Click to expand...

I've been wondering if its as simple as this lately. I'm 5 days off of opioids after 5 years of use and a taper down to almost nothing of opiates. I've been using an nmda antagonist that may have SRI and DRI activity also, to ease the PAWS and withdrawal. it works amazingly. It eases the tightness in throat anxiety like feeling that is ever present with the removal of opiates. adderall does this as well although results in an awful comedown nextday effect while the disso has no comedown or after effects other than not working anymore when it wears off.

If I'm remembering correctly opiates cause their wellbeing through a cascade which results in dopamine acting. Does all the shitty feeling come down to whether or not their is dopamine being supplied in some fashion to make you feel well? IF this is the case it seems I just substituted one dopamine giving drug for another. If its more complex than that maybe I did myself a service by cutting the opioids.

Obviously dissociatives don't have the withdrawal or physical addictivness of opiods....but if you were dependent on opioids and then switched to a disso to get your dopamine fix are you actually just delaying the withdrawal? or doing something worthwhile?
 
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has anyone had any experience using clonidine to get off opiates? a buddy of mine was prescribed a mix as an out-patient therapy to get thru WD's: clonidine, promethazine, and one other that i forget for nausea. he said the clonidine helped a ton, and he did end up quitting dope. just curious what everyone else thinks?

also, do you find loperamide to be a useful withdrawal aid? i read everything above - but am curious to know if it actually makes the symptoms less present. i have a 200 pack at home in case something happens to my connect, but have never had to go thru with it. thanks in advance.
 
treading threader said:
has anyone had any experience using clonidine to get off opiates? a buddy of mine was prescribed a mix as an out-patient therapy to get thru WD's: clonidine, promethazine, and one other that i forget for nausea. he said the clonidine helped a ton, and he did end up quitting dope. just curious what everyone else thinks?

also, do you find loperamide to be a useful withdrawal aid? i read everything above - but am curious to know if it actually makes the symptoms less present. i have a 200 pack at home in case something happens to my connect, but have never had to go thru with it. thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


Well for clonidine, i was prescribed it when i was detoxing before for blood pressure and i will say it greatly reduced the goosebumps and for whatever reason seemed to help with the sense of impending doom. That's my experience at least.

As for loperamide, I've used it quite a bit for withdrawals and it is a great tool. Now i will say when i first tried it some years back, i had a heavy IV heroin/morphine addiction and a hell of a tolerance and to put it plainly, lope did nothing for me. Some years later when withdrawing from low dose IV morphine (roughly 30-60mg day for me) i tried a HIGH dose of lope again and it removed my withdrawal 95% and i thought it was a godsend. It isn't a magic cure, as you will begin withdrawing again when when the lope wears off, about 24 hours for me. I've used lope ever since when i cant get a fix for whatever reason. I've never been successful with a loperamide taper because i have no self control whatsoever but im sure it can be done with someone with more willpower. Good luck man.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
I've been wondering if its as simple as this lately. I'm 5 days off of opioids after 5 years of use and a taper down to almost nothing of opiates. I've been using an nmda antagonist that may have SRI and DRI activity also, to ease the PAWS and withdrawal. it works amazingly. It eases the tightness in throat anxiety like feeling that is ever present with the removal of opiates. adderall does this as well although results in an awful comedown nextday effect while the disso has no comedown or after effects other than not working anymore when it wears off.

If I'm remembering correctly opiates cause their wellbeing through a cascade which results in dopamine acting. Does all the shitty feeling come down to whether or not their is dopamine being supplied in some fashion to make you feel well? IF this is the case it seems I just substituted one dopamine giving drug for another. If its more complex than that maybe I did myself a service by cutting the opioids.

Obviously dissociatives don't have the withdrawal or physical addictivness of opiods....but if you were dependent on opioids and then switched to a disso to get your dopamine fix are you actually just delaying the withdrawal? or doing something worthwhile?
Click to expand...


That's a good point about the dopamine.

What I meant though is that while in opiate withdrawl taking an opiate agonist like kratom or loperamide or something like that which alleviates some of the symptoms but not quite all of them seems to be false logic to me since you are stopping yourself from actually getting over the withdrawl but at the same time aren't actually taking enough to completely replace the original opiate.

In terms of the original opiate leaving the brain and giving brain chemistry and hormone levels the chance to balance themselves one has to be cometely off all opiate agonists. Obviously this takes time and is very unpleasant and the best way to actually make it through this time period is to minimise discomfort with drugs that help with individual withdrawl symptoms and withdrawl in general. Generally considered the best drugs for this are gabbagenics like diazepam and pregabalin (although the later isnt strictly a gabbagenic), alpha-adrenal agonistsike clonidine and to some extent nmda agonists. The effect these have on dopamine levels doesn't seem to stop their effectiveness in reducing withdrawl while.not just delaying the inevitable as using weaker opiates to combat withdrawl does.

I was going through fentanyl withdrawl a few weeks ago but due to my overall health being extremely poor at the minute my doctor put me back on it in order to properly taper (i quit CT). I've just recently got over sepsis and toxic shock (organs were shutting down and everything.....all down to an burn I suffered at work while attending an RTC) and he felt that in my current weakened state fentanyl withdrawl could have proved very dangerous.....

I wish there was some magic pill that we could take to make opiate withdrawl just go away though as it really is shit.... :(
 
I'm guessing Mike's (OP) tolerance is still too high for the weaker opioids to hold him. But surely as his tolerance drops the milder opioids should eventually hold him, put it this way - mike would be feeling way worse without the other opioids now that he isn't taking H and the like.
 
SKR said:
I'm guessing Mike's (OP) tolerance is still too high for the weaker opioids to hold him. But surely as his tolerance drops the milder opioids should eventually hold him, put it this way - mike would be feeling way worse without the other opioids now that he isn't taking H and the like.
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Well this is the thing. If say you need 100mg of an opiate to hold you out of withdrawl and only take 50mg does that mean that eventually the 50mg will start to hold you or will you just be in a state of perpetual withdrawl as your withdrawl is never truly covered? IME it's been the later....

Some argue that the only way for tollerance to drop to a level where a lower dose or a weaker opioid will hold you is to stop opioids all together for a time and simply hoping that you will eventually be held by the weaker dose doesn't happen.

Without a doubt he'd be feeling worse if he had nothing but going through endless low level withdrawl for months while waiting for what you're taking to suddenly start working is a tough situation man.
 
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^Agreed, no one wants to be sick ever, well I don't anyway. Abstinence is a very dirty word but probably the only way.
 
SKR said:
^Agreed, no one wants to be sick ever, well I don't anyway. Abstinence is a very dirty word but probably the only way.
Click to expand...

agreed with this as well - i wish i could make it past day one without lining something up. i don't know how anyone does it; must take a helluva lot of willpower.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
Obviously dissociatives don't have the withdrawal or physical addictivness of opiods....but if you were dependent on opioids and then switched to a disso to get your dopamine fix are you actually just delaying the withdrawal? or doing something worthwhile?
Click to expand...

Well this a two-way answer. Something like DXM, will actualy speed up the acute phase of wd, However it will delay the onset of rebalancing your brain chemicals, back to normal levels. Thus extending the post acute phase..


- Hopeless 7nos
 
that's interesting - does that also mean that by speeding up the acute phase of WD's that they are harsher too?
 
7nos-SS373dOH said:
Well this a two-way answer. Something like DXM, will actualy speed up the acute phase of wd, However it will delay the onset of rebalancing your brain chemicals, back to normal levels. Thus extending the post acute phase..


- Hopeless 7nos
Click to expand...

I have experienced it both ways. IF you're not accustomed to DXM, it can increase anxiety and make the WD worse initially and make you hypertensive. but i can almost guarantee that you will feel better after the dxm peaks. doses of around 100 mg are best to avoid making the WD worse and reap the following benefits:

If you are "used to" dxm...or have used it alot....it will totally allieviate withdrawl. There is clinical science to back this up also, google "attenuation of opiate with drawal dextromethorphan". It will both ease the withdrawal and actually potentiate the trace opioids still present in your system if they are there. Its not sure how this happens but I have a theory that it may work via it alpha 3 beta 4 Nicotinic acetylchloine receptor activity. Ibogaine shares this same activity and its believed this may be responsible for ibogaine resetting tolerance or potentiating opioids. DXM (DXO) has a large array of other pharmacoligc activity that may help the withdrawal such as nmda antagonism, SRI activity.

I can't say enough about how well DXM eliminates withdrawal, PAWS and potentiates opioids. in an acute sense....as for how its prolonging the process of full healing over all in the long run....thats whay I worry about
 
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