Opioids Opiate "Tolerance Reduction Plan" over time - experience

[Asheal]

Hello Bluelight,

I am a longtime lurker and finally decided to post after the last few days of my experience with opiates.

Been using about 5 years steady, for the last 3 or 4 months I tried to quit, I did for a while, I simply hate to say that I guess I am not yet ready. I am a business owner and easily finance my DOC, will soon be married and am a very fit and healthy person. I am a 30 year old guy who is 6'1, 185 lbs, about 6.5% BF with an extremely high tolerance. I have been stuck on opiates for about 5 years after originally being on them for 6 months straight following ACL repair from an MMA fight.

So the only thing I have ever been able to find are Norcos (10/325) (haven't really tried to find harder stuff and I like it that way) and my tolerance as of Friday (the last time I took before today) had me taking 400-420 mg of hydro at a time using the CWE method of course. I deal with the hydro Withdrawal very well and my normal routine has me using Monday through Friday and then do not use at all sat and sun every weekend. I spend those weekends with my GF hiking visiting family and normally being quite active. Have withdrawn many times.

After failing at cold turkey at least a dozen times, I have changed my tactics and did what feels like thousands of hours of research and collected certain ingredients. This is with the idea of first trying to gain SOME control over my use and tolerance. I am obviously not ready to fully quit and I think it is doing more harm than good to my life by doing the back and forth I am doing now. So after taking 420 mg on Friday at 10:00 AM I collected the following.

Suboxone 8mg strips
DXM (Delsum liquid)
Agmantine Sulfate powder
Cat's Claw 500mg pills
Magnesium Caplets 500mg pills
Ashwagandha Extract 470mg pills

My withdrawls are always bearable to me but are the worst at around hours 30 - 72 and then I am pretty much done except for malaise that lasts until day 5 or 6, again no biggie, but after getting a cash doc to sell me 30 8 mg suboxone strips I thought I would use them to help in TINY doses with tolerance through my "overall plan". I know these are heavy opiates, just bare with me.

420mg hdyro 10:00 AM Friday morning.

6mg of a Suboxone strip at 6:00 PM on Saturday evening.

This was my first time taking Suboxone ever for the record. Now that I have next time I do it I will take 4mg or less instead of 6mg. The idea I had from my research was that I could use it to get though the worst days but didn't want a lot of Nalaxone (sp?) to build up in my system since I know I want to use again. I FELT AMAZING!!! Must say its a great substitute and I see why it works, I took too much in my opinion so Saturday evening at my friends MMA fight I was a little spun with a small opiate high, very excitable both in happiness, anger, sadness, you know, typical opiate "goins ons".

Absolutely zero withdrawal whatsoever until maybe a tiny bit 3:00 PM watching football on Sunday. Slept fine both Sat night and Sunday night, woke up Monday morning feeling about 20% of my worst withdrawal and AT WORST maybe 30% of my withdrawal Monday night and slept from 11 -6, about normal as my alarm goes off at 6:30 to head to my office. I am very happy with the Suboxone used in this way, I could see how using it makes you feel almost completely normal over the long run and suggest it for anyone who is ready. Sadly, mentally i am not yet ready, a little closer...

With that said, I want to thank the bluelight community as I have read hundreds of hours of posts on tolerance reduction and NDMA antagonists and all the ideas in which supplements and other substance help. With that in mind, I began my "tolerance reduction plan" into action on Sunday morning.

When I stop for a few days every weekend my tolerance goes typically from 350 mg Monday back to 400 ish mg Friday, then back to 350 mg usage on Monday. Been rinsing and repeating that (about 50% of Fridays are taken off too) holding my tolerance below 450 mg maximum for a while, sadly I don't last long.

Sunday I began taking:
- 45 mg DXM morning and night totaling 90 mg DXM per day.
- 2 470 mg Ashwagandha caps twice per day totaling 1.88 g per day.
- 2 400 mg Magnesium caps twice per day totaling 1.6 g per day.
- 1 g scoop of Agmatine powder twice per day totaling 2 g per day.
- 2 500 mg Cat's Claw caps twice per day totaling 2 g per day.

I began this routine Sunday and the idea was to try and hold off as long as possible from my normal routine, I didn't do well. Well, I didn't do any Monday so I guess I did pretty well for us with problems, right?!?!

Tuesday morning I woke up and made my cup of coffee and my triple CWE filtration, took my morning supplement doses and decided to CWE 300 mg worth of hydro and take it about an hour after my morning supplement dose. This was my first and only dose since my plan went into action.

I WAS FLOORED!!!! So much so that I couldn't work very well at all, so bad I had to put clients on hold and gather myself from the over excited-ness. Ended up going home at 2 and playing video games for a couple hours and my heart was racing! Man did I have fun! But def more than I needed, I wish I would have taken 250 mg to start the day Tuesday. BTW, I only ever dose once per day.

Tomorrow I am thinking of doing 270 mg and seeing how it goes.

That is an extremely detailed account of what I am taking and people can use the numbers I have to create their own math and their own ideas.

While I did take 4 days off instead of the typical 2 or 3, my dose this morning was FAR MORE intense than normal and I should have taken even less. Also, even though it was 4 days this time I was not sober, I had the 6 mg of Subs including the bup which is a much stronger opiate and should have halted any tolerance reduction.

So far I am very happy with the results of my "tolerance reduction plan". I do not know what specifically is doing what, but I have read up on all of the science and with my engineering BA background I am able to understand almost all of it. So again to recap, I don't know what is doing what specifically, but so far as a comprehensive grouping I went from 420 mg Friday morning at 10:00 AM and 6 mg Suboxone at 6:00 PM Saturday. Then finally to my next recreational dose of 300 mg Tuesday morning at 10:00 AM.

I will continue to post onto this thread with updates. Please anyone who has any advice or ideas let me know and I will update my plan as need be. However much information I was able to obtain, noone stuck around long enough to put up daily numbers for anyone to see.

Hopefully this will remedy that a little.

 

[Asheal]

Also wanted to note, the normal grogginess I feel at this time (8 hours after my dose) is completely not happening in any way.

The only affect I have is very dry and raw eyes from itching my eyes sooooo much more than normal while using earlier.

Not sure if its my supplement cocktail, but hopefully it is working as intended.

 

[Asheal]

Note --

Sitting here watching Shark Tank at 6:00 PM, 8 hours after my last dose.

Not only do I have zero negative feelings right now, I still have a bit of euphoric and analg .... whatever that word is which means pain killing itself. Sorry I am too lazy to google it!!!

 

[sekio]

6mg of suboxone is quite a lot for someone who is using hydrocodone, I would bet that it would substitute fully. Probably won't reduce your tolerance, but it will work as a maintenance drug.

 

[Asheal]

6mg of suboxone is quite a lot for someone who is using hydrocodone, I would bet that it would substitute fully. Probably won't reduce your tolerance, but it will work as a maintenance drug.

Exactly.

Again, the sub is just to get through the first couple days withdrawal every weekend as need be and the cocktail and time (two to three days off everty weekend ) paired is technically the meat in my "tolerance reduction plan".

You are absolutely right about the 6mg of Subs. Dude, doctors are FREAKING INSANE to prescribe 16-24 mg daily of this stuff to people. I guess higher opiates MIGHT need it, but im at 420 mg of hydro and like you said should take less. I cant see anyone who should be taking 10+ unless they want to get high.

What would you recomend I take for my plan this friday or sat depending on what I "take off"?

4 mg? 2 mg?

Again, with what I am using it for in mind.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[manboychef]

I was on higher doses of subutex for a couple years. There is a goldilocks dose. Between 2-4mg. You can always take more, never less.

I think doctors prescribe so much because it is all about the money.

 

[Asheal]

I was on higher doses of subutex for a couple years. There is a goldilocks dose. Between 2-4mg. You can always take more, never less.

I think doctors prescribe so much because it is all about the money.

Right, it is sad really but you are obviously right. Especially proven by the ease with which I found a cash doctor and the lack of ANY knowledge he passed on to me. Without the internet I would be F'd as his 10 minute meeting stated "wait a day then do the dose schedule written on your information packet".

LOL, what a joke...


Okie dokie, day 2 of taking my opiates while on my supplement cocktail.

As was discussed yesterday, I wanted to take a lower dose but the addict inside me took over and still took 280 mg (300 mg yesterday) fearing yesterday was a fluke. Just two less pills to crush up and filter than yesterday, but oh well it's still a drop and I can see what happens.

10:00 AM like usual and it hit me like a rock! If yesterday was a 9.5/10 today was a 9/10. Still had a little bit of trouble every now and then speaking with clients , will drop to 250 mg tomorrow since I was happy with how high I was today. Its only a "two rat study" so we will see, but once again it felt much stronger than normal. This time I noticed HOW MUCH MORE QUICKLY THE EFFECT HIT ME.

I took my supplements at 8:45, got in the shower, then drank my CWE when I got in the car with about a half hour drive to work. Normally by the time I arrive I am starting to get that familiar taste in my mouth and the initial affects of high energy and excitement are coming on, then it fully hits me by the end of the hour.

This time as I said was much faster. I got in the car chugged my CWE at exactly 10:16 and got that taste at exactly 10:33 and felt around 75% of the full effects by the time I arrived at my office at 10:48. I decided to add a third gram of Agmatine to my daily routine to bring me to 3 grams total,. This was because some new research I found last night shows it is not harmful to me and with my level of opiate being taken a higher ratio of Agm/hydro would be beneficial.

So far it seems like my reduction plan is working, tomorrow I will make sure to take 250 mg of hydro and that will be my last dose for the week. I almost always end my week at 380-420 mg so this is a huge deal for me!

GF and I are heading to my moms for the weekend, so I will not take any Fri - Sun. Another 3 day weekend but this time I will be on my supplements all weekend. I look forward to Monday and finding out if it continues to work or if the last two days have been a fluke.

I will bring a Suboxone strip and MAYBE take 2 grams, but I doubt it. Since I just went through some of the withdrawal last weekend this one will be even less, nice relaxing weekend with the mom and the gf by the pool and at dinner? I can take it, and my tolerance will be greatly effected with even the negligence of 2 mg to my body as a poster previously mentioned.

So far so good!

Thanks for reading all, if you have any suggestions, concerns or questions feel free to fire away.

---- I got a PM asking why I haven't added Memantine and Proglumide.

While from my reading those two things are hugely beneficial and would fit pefectly in my "tolerance reduction plan" regiment. Unfortunately both are prescriptions which I am not comfortable going after. If you are trying to do something like this thread and have access to them I would take them. I would assume you could count on the effects I am seeing being more potent from the addition of those two substances.

 

[manboychef]

Remember, if bupe has an incredibly long half life. I remember when I quit using bupe (I was on a very high dose, and I iv'd it so I was getting most) it took like four days to be able to feel 15 bags of heroin.

It will be a lot shorter for you as there is less to metabolize, but if you want to dose hydro again on Tuesday I wouldn't drop any on Sunday night through Monday night.

Good luck, keep me posted I want to see how this works out

 

[Asheal]

Remember, if bupe has an incredibly long half life. I remember when I quit using bupe (I was on a very high dose, and I iv'd it so I was getting most) it took like four days to be able to feel 15 bags of heroin.

It will be a lot shorter for you as there is less to metabolize, but if you want to dose hydro again on Tuesday I wouldn't drop any on Sunday night through Monday night.

Good luck, keep me posted I want to see how this works out

Yup, however after reading over everything I dont think a single time use will do it. It has to build up in your system for it to be fully effective.

Recapping, I took 420 mg of hydro Friday to get high, then a 6 mg strip of bupe on Sat, followed by 300 mg of hydro Tuesday where I was EXTREMELY high. From my reading alone I wouldnt have expected to feel much only 48 hours late

It does call into question that for the 48 hours I was taking my new supplement routine which makes it even more difficult to pinpoint what is doing what.

------- Day 3-----

Day 3 of taking my hydro doses after beginning my "tolerance reduction plan"!!!

I had an early meeting so got started early including taking my supplements at 6:30. I got the CWE started for 25 pills or 250 mg of hydro which is the dose I made myself take today. Took the results with me in the car and drank it down at about 7:30.

Here I sit 5 hours later at the tail end of my high in the office.

Recapping the high today felt like a typical day in the middle of a long binge. We're talking 30 days straight where you bounce back and forth between high and really high! It wasn't super intense but nor was I upset feeling like I wasted my time. It is/was a nice clean high.

Anyways, for those that don't know what I mean, I was really giddy and excited. Not to the point of having trouble talking with clients like the last two days, but jittery tapping my hands and fingers together, itchiness, happiness, the heavy and slightly euphoric feeling and all the other good stuff that usually comes with my hydro.

I will keep doing my rating chart as I am a numbers and math guy (engineering major and math minor!) I was always looking for something like this.

A score of an 7.0 - 8.0 to me is the nice high where I am not searching for any more. If it is a 7.0 or below I a generally get upset with myself that I didnt take enough.

Tues 6th @ 300mg - 9.5/10
Wed 7th @ 280mg - 9/10
Thurs 8th @ 250mg 8/10

I do not want to take any tomorrow and should be ok not to as I am pretty busy. Depending on how I feel I MIGHT take 2 mg of the Suboxone Friday night or Saturday morning, we will see. But so far so good, even at nights I feel less crappy than I did before my supplement routine.

Not too much else to report, I am excited to think about next week and what will happen if this continues to work and hopefully is not just mental.

With Friday, Saturday and Sunday taking no hydro my intake will be reduced further. If this is the case and my routine merely stops tolerance building instead of reversing it, that is fine and my weekend breaks should eventually do the trick. I will continue to update over the weekend as to how I feel, if any Suboxone has been taken and any other changes to myself and the way I feel.

The last time I took less than 200 mg of hydro to get high was over two years ago. So while I am trying not to get my hopes up, I am sure you can imagine how excited I am.

 

[manboychef]

I was reading this and thinking to myself, man those are some high doses. Then I remembered that when I was shooting morphine I was doing 300mg shots, sometimes a couple times a day. I was the same way, I would get pissed if I didn't blast off from the rush.

 

[Asheal]

I was reading this and thinking to myself, man those are some high doses. Then I remembered that when I was shooting morphine I was doing 300mg shots, sometimes a couple times a day. I was the same way, I would get pissed if I didn't blast off from the rush.

Ha! Right?!?!

I have heard of people doing all kinds of different levels per day, while I think I am on the higher end I have seen people much, much worse. Not to mention how often I get reminded that "dude hydro is such pu$$y sh!t man! You barely even have a problem!"

Makes me glad I don't know a single person to get me any higher level of opiate. I LOVE percocet the random times I could get it, really scares me as to how much I would like things like heroin and other high level opiates

------ Update--------

I swear to god I am still high.

Only like half the amount, but I can definitely tell that it is "high" and not just starting to come down. It is euphoric, no agitation (around 10 hours after dose) and still feel a little bit of a body high as well.

I am certain that this is new since the implementation of my supplemental regiment

 

[Mad Dash]

Just remember if the goal is to take less opiates taking bupe is not going to help the situation it is way stronger and has a VERY long half life. It loses its magic very fast and will have you hooked on a much stronger opioid. People get the wrong idea that just because bupe is CIII and is used for addiction it is not that abusable. That could not be further from the truth. I am sure it has all been mentioned in here already I just wanted to say it in case nobody else did. Be safe.

 

[manboychef]

Just remember if the goal is to take less opiates taking bupe is not going to help the situation it is way stronger and has a VERY long half life. It loses its magic very fast and will have you hooked on a much stronger opioid. People get the wrong idea that just because bupe is CIII and is used for addiction it is not that abusable. That could not be further from the truth. I am sure it has all been mentioned in here already I just wanted to say it in case nobody else did. Be safe.

QFT. Keep this in mind asheal. If you ever get to the point of wanting to stop, or the opiates just plain lose their magic be careful switching to this drug. Most of the doctors that prescribe it were given pro suboxone propaganda and will tell you that, when truly this is a compound that should be given the utmost respect.

 

[Asheal]

First of all, thank you guys for the warning, but I am very familiar with all the substances being used and unfortunately been on all of them for almost a decade. While quitting seems beyond my reach at the moment, using my plan I have managed to drop from around 420mg hydro doses to 250mg doses for the same effect. Today my plan was to drop it down to 200mg, see below.
---

Hi guys!

Ok, well I had a really slow work day and definitely failed in my idea of not taking any for the day.

I did however keep it to 250mg of hydro along with my described "tolerance reduction plan" at about 9:00. Got a great high which was especially useful on such a slow day! I would say the same as I told you guys Thursday.

On Sat morning I cut up one of my 8mg Bupe tabs into 10 pieces, so .8 per. Last weekend I used 6 mg and it was WAY too much, I actually got a little high which is not the idea.

So Sat morning at 10:00, I ate two of my little tabs for a total of 1.6mg of Bupe along with my continued regiment listed above.

My withdrawals were sooooo minimal, we left at 12 to do family stuff including dinner and lunch (had about 80% of normal appetite) and went to bed at about 11:00. Slept though the entire night until 7:15!!! Felt great, maybe a TINY bit of malaise but I was good enough to have morning sex which the diva wanted!

Sunday wasnt too bad at all, maybe 25% of my normal withdrawal symptoms which after you take Imodium are basically nothing.

So here we come to today, I took my supplements and toke a dose of 200mg at about 9:00.

This is the first day where I am not happy with my high, could be a few reasons.

This time Last time
6 mg Bupe 1.6 mg Bupe
72 hours to dose 48 hours to dose
dose drop 400-300 250-200 mg

I prolly had a ceiling at about 370mg of hydro before, so the first drop while larger still yielded similar effects. The second weekend I took a much lower dose than normal of 250mg and felt great, like I stated about 90% of my wanted high. This weekend, with only two days break instead of 3, my dose of 200mg only yeilded me prolly 60% of the feeling I am looking for, not enough and tomorow I will do 250mg.

I think such a drop is too much to ask for, however even feeling 200 mg like I do today is miraculous considering I was 100% on 420mg only 14 days ago. My plan is for the suppliments to keep my tolerance from increasing (and hopefully slowly lowering) while using potentiators to also lower the dose needed for the high I want.

Tues 6th @ 300mg - 9.5/10
Wed 7th @ 280mg - 9/10
Thurs 8th @ 250mg 8/10
Friday 9th @ 250mg 8/10
Mon 12th @ 200mg 6/10

Still happy with what is going on as nomatter what is happening I can definitely say I dont think my tolerance is increasing even at 4 o 5 days a week of use. TINY levels of bupe are what is needed, not only are you getting much less of the antagonists but I feel that the small amount is helping me live a more normal life on the weekend.

I will continue my experiment, my dream is by January 1st to only need less than 100mg per day to get me where I want. Then I can get back to not having to CWE these damn things all the time!!!!

Thanks for all those interested.

 

[B131]

Just wondering if you continued this experiment and if it ended up working to lower your tolerance in the long run??

 

[kleinerkiffer]

^The OP hasn't been online since, so I doubt that he'll reply